Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Hitei]

To be fair, they have something of a point if you want to limit it to Warcraft III classes—we're definitely not getting Dark Rangers anytime soon as a unique class with their most prominent member now being MIA for the foreseeable future and Necromancers seem unlikely, as well. I could theoretically see a Lich class being very fun and interesting, but I don't know what could justify it.

Personally I don't find Lich at all likely. It's like a hybrid of mage and necromancer, leaning much closer to mage. Given how robust death and spirit associated magic has become in the last two expansions, the class is in a very comfortable place to get the Monk treatment--where they amalgamize a bunch core archetype features and bits of WC3 with a fresh aesthetic and tone.

Put aside Kyrian and Night Fae, which lean heavily into Paladin/Light and Druidic themes, and Shadowlands has given you three perfectly ideal thematics that line up fantastically with spec differentiation and classic necromancer themes.

Plague
Draws on Maldraxxus. Uses the teal/slime/protoplasm look of that zone and BfA Necromancy. Poison themed caster DPS, heavy AoE/"skill shot" kit. Poison pools and rain, conal/line splashes of corrosive liquid. Summoned oozes and slime-skeletons. Floating spores and toxic mushrooms. Slime bolts. Empowering anima crystals.

Harvest
Draws on Revendreth. Uses red and black look of that zone and BfA's blood troll necromancers. Health pool managing healer. Maintains draining effects on enemies to fuel secondary resource bar, which is then infused back into friendly targets as direct bolts of flash healing, multi-target channeled healing, or long-lasting slow hots. Niche is dampening incoming damage by managing and redirecting the whole group's hp as a collective with miniature spirit-link "drain" effects, like pulling a small % of hp from (or healing absorption on) the 3 highest % group members to heal the targeted group member, CD redistributing a couple seconds of damage on a specific target to multiple party members.

Domination
Draws on the Maw. Uses the shadowy black and orange smokey aesthetic found there. Hybrid minion and caster DPS. Primary pet mechanic is normalized raised minions--i.e. you use [Subjugate Will] on a corpse, any corpse, and it brings that dead enemy/ally back to life but with a normalized attack/hp--not permanent but long duration (several hours), summons maw shades/fighters if no corpses are present. Up to five or so of them. Mawsworn/Jailer inspired chain attack debuffs, the pain spike and conal desecrate maw casters use. Torghast-aesthetic spikes in the ground that summon the desecrated ground effect that enemies in torghast/the maw use, doing slow Dot on enemies and HoT on pets/caster. Slow building secondary resource Torment that is then used to summon larger maw enemies like mini Terragrues, or the lich-like big maw casters as DPS cooldowns. Where other pet specs are about buffing damage into a single minion(unholy, BM) or swarming(demo, unholy) or actively attacking via that minion (Survival), and pet-using non-pet specs (MM, destro, affli, sometimes frost) just summon and forget--this spec will be a middle ground, you don't need to micro your pets, but you need to keep an eye on their status/number and help them stay topped up or summon replacements for fallen ones while your primary rotation focuses on your own DPS output.

This both delivers a fresh aesthetic and gameplay styles, and also has significant callbacks to the traditional scourge necromancers with plague/toxic/minion themes.

[Teriz]

Because most people think of gazlowe or engineering when thinking about tinkers. Which is honestly a boring concept but most importantly isn't serious enough for the player to feel important and badass. The engineer from gw2 is a great example how to make a unique and fun (and flashy/cool looking) tinker class.

Nah, I prefer this;



I don't see how anyone could view that as boring, but to each their own.

[Holdodlig]

Gnomes invented the secrets of the Tinker, they have that knowledge. Ever seen a dwarf tinker? Thought so. Gnomes are the only ones who can share that knowledge, like pandas with the monk class.

Technology has always been in the dwarves background when elves were more magic-focused. It has been like that since Warcraft 3.

[Lady Atia]

It would honestly be lame if only Naaru-raised Forsaken can be paladins, the idea that the old ones could do it but it really hurts them is cool. It means they suffer but are still devout in their faith.

This actually brings up a good point: are we even sure they WILL make new Forsaken? Sylvanas did it post-Wrath to support the Jailer... why would Calia do it?

I can see her offering the choice to the people that Sylvanas killed in Before the Storm, but outside why would she be rezzing random corpses? Her character isn’t very developed yet but she doesn’t seem crazy or manipulative.

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I would be shocked if they touched Pandaria or Northrend graphically. If anything it would be a reason for Bolvar to disappear to Northrend to help defend the people off screen.

Well to be fair Pandaria still looks really good and Draenor is basically the Outland Revamp. Northrend, Kalimdor and EK are showing their age though.

[The Stormbringer]

Gnomes invented the secrets of the Tinker, they have that knowledge. Ever seen a dwarf tinker? Thought so. Gnomes are the only ones who can share that knowledge, like pandas with the monk class.

Yes. They're the ones that came up with gunpowder based guns, and cannons, and tanks. They even have their own flying machines separate from the Gnomes' flying machines.

There are numerous races out there that would work as Tinkers, not just "Goblins and Gnomes". That would be the stupidest waste of a class Blizzard came up with, because with Demon Hunters, at least elves are popular.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Personally I don't find Lich at all likely. It's like a hybrid of mage and necromancer, leaning much closer to mage. Given how robust death and spirit associated magic has become in the last two expansions, the class is in a very comfortable place to get the Monk treatment--where they amalgamize a bunch core archetype features and bits of WC3 with a fresh aesthetic and tone.

Put aside Kyrian and Night Fae, which lean heavily into Paladin/Light and Druidic themes, and Shadowlands has given you three perfectly ideal thematics that line up fantastically with spec differentiation and classic necromancer themes.

Plague
Draws on Maldraxxus. Uses the teal/slime/protoplasm look of that zone and BfA Necromancy. Poison themed caster DPS, heavy AoE/"skill shot" kit. Poison pools and rain, conal/line splashes of corrosive liquid. Summoned oozes and slime-skeletons. Floating spores and toxic mushrooms. Slime bolts. Empowering anima crystals.

Harvest
Draws on Revendreth. Uses red and black look of that zone and BfA's blood troll necromancers. Health pool managing healer. Maintains draining effects on enemies to fuel secondary resource bar, which is then infused back into friendly targets as direct bolts of flash healing, multi-target channeled healing, or long-lasting slow hots. Niche is dampening incoming damage by managing and redirecting the whole group's hp as a collective with miniature spirit-link "drain" effects, like pulling a small % of hp from (or healing absorption on) the 3 highest % group members to heal the targeted group member, CD redistributing a couple seconds of damage on a specific target to multiple party members.

Domination
Draws on the Maw. Uses the shadowy black and orange smokey aesthetic found there. Hybrid minion and caster DPS. Primary pet mechanic is normalized raised minions--i.e. you use [Subjugate Will] on a corpse, any corpse, and it brings that dead enemy/ally back to life but with a normalized attack/hp--not permanent but long duration (several hours), summons maw shades/fighters if no corpses are present. Up to five or so of them. Mawsworn/Jailer inspired chain attack debuffs, the pain spike and conal desecrate maw casters use. Torghast-aesthetic spikes in the ground that summon the desecrated ground effect that enemies in torghast/the maw use, doing slow Dot on enemies and HoT on pets/caster. Slow building secondary resource Torment that is then used to summon larger maw enemies like mini Terragrues, or the lich-like big maw casters as DPS cooldowns. Where other pet specs are about buffing damage into a single minion(unholy, BM) or swarming(demo, unholy) or actively attacking via that minion (Survival), and pet-using non-pet specs (MM, destro, affli, sometimes frost) just summon and forget--this spec will be a middle ground, you don't need to micro your pets, but you need to keep an eye on their status/number and help them stay topped up or summon replacements for fallen ones while your primary rotation focuses on your own DPS output.

This both delivers a fresh aesthetic and gameplay styles, and also has significant callbacks to the traditional scourge necromancers with plague/toxic/minion themes.

Could be interesting enough. Not sure if it would be wise to base a whole class on a poorly-received expansion—and I do apologize if I come off as obstinate. I legitimately would love a Necromancer class, even if I've come off as opposed to it. I have actually been thinking about changing my mind on it and at least coming up with a concept to justify it—I really like your idea, but I also don't know if it would be wise to base a class on a bygone expansion, much less one like Shadowlands.

[Varx]

Nah, I prefer this;



I don't see how anyone could view that as boring, but to each their own.

That shit sold me the moment I saw it years ago, I knew we'd get tinkers eventually right there and then. I just didn't know when with DRs, Necros still being possible candidates.

Then SL reveal happen with shit for features, that's when I knew for 10.0.

Then the mech dragonling from the Anni event solidified it for me with recently finding about about gallywix in Tazavesh further enforcing it.

Less than a month to go... I'll be working during the day and won't find out until I get home since my wife will kill me if I watch the reveal without her, but I fully expect my personal box filled with apologies.

[Teriz]

If this is why there are so many people here with "anti Tinker" sentiment, then what the hell? They have so much cool tech in the game they would absolutely expand the classes' identity to include exactly the ones mentioned; the coolest thing about the Mag'har is the carrying forward of Iron Horde tech, and the Lightforged have tech as most of their own unique identity.

Falsely believing the class has to stick to WC3's definition of Tinker is only something a certain unnamed individual around here does.

Tinker island expedition team does a pretty good job of "not feeling like a jokey WC3 Tinker" as well. It's guns, robots, science healing and mechs. What's weird about that, yknow?

Well the thing is that the previous expansion classes (DKs, Monks, and Demon Hunters) stuck pretty closely to their WC3 roots. Sure concepts were expanded upon, but in general, it's very easy to see the roots of each expansion class.

Death Knights had the same armor, swords, mounts, etc of their WC3 counterparts. The only thing that was really expanded on were the races available.

Monks were still heavily based on Pandaren Brewmasters, with Pandaren iconography on their abilities, armor that resembled Chen Stormstout, and each spec having unique brews to concoct.

Demon Hunters were elves only, getting the tattoos, blindfolds, wings, and even horns of their archetypal lore character/hero Illidan.

Tinkers are going to follow a similar line. You're going to get the claw pack. You're going to get the abilities from WC3 and HotS. You're going to get the wild stuff from Goblin and Gnome technology. The onus is on Blizzard to either spread the concept out, or limit the concept to its core. I feel that it can go either way. Even limiting it to Goblin and Gnome tech gives you a pretty robust 3 spec hybrid class.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

helm of domination controlled the scourge via domination magic
the crown of wills was just made to fight domination magic

the scourge attacking silvermoon kinda helps point to this

Fair enough, I suppose there still exists the threat of the Feral Scourge. Nevertheless, it seems like Quel'Thalas is handling the problem pretty well and it's sort of tapered out. Again, not against the concept, just really unsure if there is any room for it.

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Yes. They're the ones that came up with gunpowder based guns, and cannons, and tanks. They even have their own flying machines separate from the Gnomes' flying machines.

There are numerous races out there that would work as Tinkers, not just "Goblins and Gnomes". That would be the stupidest waste of a class Blizzard came up with, because with Demon Hunters, at least elves are popular.

I do agree that it would be rather insufficient to waste a class on only two races—I think there's room for Dwarves, Dark Iron, Mechagnomes, Mag'har and maybe Draenei, but they'd have to do really good to synthesize the Draenei into the concept.

[Hitei]

Could be interesting enough. Not sure if it would be wise to base a whole class on a poorly-received expansion—and I do apologize if I come off as obstinate. I legitimately would love a Necromancer class, even if I've come off as opposed to it. I have actually been thinking about changing my mind on it and at least coming up with a concept to justify it—I really like your idea, but I also don't know if it would be wise to base a class on a bygone expansion, much less one like Shadowlands.

Nah, that's a valid take. I just don't think the expansion centric issue is all that much of a barrier--they introduced monk with the knowledge that MoP would be over in two years, but still made the class super heavily pandaria/august celestial themed.

[cocomen2]

People are also salty that the lack of a new class completely obliterated any chance for Necro and DR for 10.0. And since that pretty much guarantees tinkers as there's nothing else with high priority, well there you go.

"RUDOLF!Santa called, asked you to stop sniffing that cocaine, each time you doing it you start talking out of your's ass about some kind priority"

Teriz is pretty chill, if anyone triggers people more it's me. But I'm just speaking the bullshit, why it triggers people so much is beyond me.

FTFY, just to show you, why people dislike fanatics like you.

[Therougetitan]

Teriz is pretty chill, if anyone triggers people more it's me. But I'm just speaking the truth, why it triggers people so much is beyond me.

But if they read the terrain like I do instead of going off of personal desires then they'd understand and wouldn't get their jimmies rustled. Again, I have no intention of maining a tinker, I just know with 100% certainty that they're wow's next playable class. It's so God damn obvious all things considered.

If that triggers people then oh well.

No one cares about your guys personal desires. It is the second part where you guys state it as like it is an obvious thing that makes you obnoxious and narcissist.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Nah, that's a valid take. I just don't think the expansion centric issue is all that much of a barrier--they introduced monk with the knowledge that MoP would be over in two years, but still made the class super heavily pandaria/august celestial themed.

Fair enough—I was thinking more about it being a bygone expansion, though, not just a single expansion. Whereas the Monk was introduced where it was relevant as a selling point, a Necromancer could probably only be a selling point in a Lordaeron expansion, which also means they'd probably have to make it as classical as possible.

If I were to give my proposal – and forgive me for the general brevity, because I'm a little tired and distracted, so I can't go into full details with the idea nor refine it much, so some of these may also seem like poor ideas – I would probably actually center it around the Lich theme and make it be all about fueling a transformation. Think a mix of Metamorphosis and Insanity for a Shadow Priest. That would allow them to use their summons in a way that's distinct from both Warlocks and Death Knights and give them something to build their attacks around. Plus, people do seem to like the "build up to a powerful transformation" gameplay since Shadow Priest remains a class that seems conceptually well-received.

I suppose I'd make one specialization based around Necromantic summoning, which would be differentiated by Demonology by sort of creating more of a "squad" than a "legion" by making your Undead longer-lasting and feel more like an array of distinct and powerful bodyguards than abilities communicated through the summoning, or possibly by going the opposite direction and leaving it as only a single type of Undead that you simply summon massive swarms of that grow with your abilities, though that latter version strikes me as very redundant with Death Knights. Another would be based on Frost-based DoTs where your goal is to gradually cast increasingly powerful spells that make hypothermia gradually take hold, as opposed to a melee juggernaut who uses his frost spells to supplement his attacks and which would sort of be also based around building-up, just like the overall Lich transformation. The building-up of the DoTs would specifically be based around a mechanic which would cause your main DoT to increase in its power and the damage it deals (as opposed to just stacking it, which would be a bit redundant with Affliction Warlocks or Death Knights).

The last specialization I can't make anything up for—we already have two classes (Warlock and Death Knights) with plague-focused specializations, so I can't make much with that. I suppose I could see a sort of Tank specialization, especially since we have plenty of DPS-only specializations already. This is going to sound possibly a little retarded of me, but I suppose one thing that would be cool, if really unwieldy, is a tank-based pet specialization. We have aspects of this in Beast Mastery, but even then they don't strictly tank and you'll usually get mocked if you use a tanking pet in any environment save for leveling—in this case, it does leave a bit of a vacancy, but it would require a lot of direct control over the summon and would definitely be very difficult to balance and properly design. It could work, though, and would fill a niche that isn't filled that would give Necromancers some uniqueness.

I've never really designed a class before, but I figured it would be worthwhile just to come up with a vague concept to see what I could think of that would fit with a Lordaeron-based expansion.

[Teriz]

No one cares about your guys personal desires. It is the second part where you guys state it as like it is an obvious thing that makes you obnoxious and narcissist.

There's a difference between obviousness and certainty. I believe that while the Tinker has obvious inroads towards becoming a class in WoW, It isn't a certainty that it's going to happen. I do believe though that if there is a next class, it's going to be the Tinker. Lack of a new class in Shadowlands pretty much confirmed that, because the only class really rivalling the Tinker concept was Dark Rangers.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

"RUDOLF!Santa called, asked you to stop sniffing that cocaine, each time you doing it you start talking out of your's ass about some kind priority"
FTFY, just to show you, why people dislike fanatics like you.

I really don't think any of us can be 100% sure of any class being a priority or not since we only have some pretty vague and mostly-outdated clues about Blizzard's class priorities. We can debate, but if two people are arguing and both are insisting that what they want is 100% the case, one person will end up making an ass of themselves when they are proven wrong and the other will dig deeper into conceit.

[scrappybristol]

I 100% do not want anything big or cosmic threatening Azeroth for the next expansion.

Like bruh let us breathe.

Azeroth needs a lot of TLC before the next big bad shows up

[Teriz]

/snip.

The issue you're running into with that concept isn't overlap with DK, but overlap with Mages. Frost Mages currently have an ability called Deathborne that transforms them into a Lich. Also some of the concepts you're talking about like Hypothermia and stacking frost-based damage is already present within Frost Mages.

I am of the view that instead of clogging up the necromancer thematic, we leave it alone and allow DKs, Warlocks, and Mages to expand freely without another class clogging up their design space.

[Varx]

"RUDOLF!Santa called, asked you to stop sniffing that cocaine, each time you doing it you start talking out of your's ass about some kind priority"
FTFY, just to show you, why people dislike fanatics like you.

Again no Necro or DR in SL means no Necro or DR for 10.0 with a shadow of a doubt.

10.0 needs to have a new class.

Necros and DR were the only real contenders. There is absolutely no other class left that has the creative possibility and lack of representation that tinkers have.

Add it up together and any one can see that tinkers are next, despite personal preferences.

It's really plain and simple.

Fyi, I don't give a fly fuck if people don't like me for speaking the TRUTH. It's hilarious seeing all the rage anyway.

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No one cares about your guys personal desires. It is the second part where you guys state it as like it is an obvious thing that makes you obnoxious and narcissist.

I already made it plain that it is not a personal desire as I have no Intention of maining a tinker. Im just reading what's plain as day.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

The issue you're running into with that concept isn't overlap with DK, but overlap with Mages. Frost Mages currently have an ability called Deathborne that transforms them into a Lich. Also some of the concepts you're talking about like Hypothermia and stacking frost-based damage is already present within Frost Mages.

I am of the view that instead of clogging up the necromancer thematic, we leave it alone and allow DKs, Warlocks, and Mages to expand freely without another class clogging up their design space.

Fair enough. I haven't been playing lately, so I admit that I'm not sure how much other classes are taking up these other ideas—I would say that Deathborne isn't a problem, though, since it's not really about Lichdom and it's more of a brief upgrade.

I suppose an alternative is to make the Lich transformation act differently, being more of a perpetual state akin to a Druid form, which could also work for a single specialization, though it would also make the non-Tanking summoning specialization not work well.

I would say there could be a way to make the Lich's frost abilities work could be that it would take a bit more from Kel'Thuzad's fight in the few ways it doesn't overlap much. I would say that Frost Mages are still lacking in gradual DoTs relative to some others, or they're at least mostly delivered by otherwise-direct spells. This could work out if it were mostly traditional DoTs like other classes use. if it can't stack, I suppose one way the DoTs could work is that it could focus on increasing people's vulnerability or their damage taken by frost spells in general by adding a rotation around maximizing that—you could do some fun things with that. I think there may be room for it and the primary sticking point for me is the expansion problem and not the mechanics so much.

I remain very solidly on the fence about the concept, of course, and doubt it's likely, but I do figure it could be fair to screw around with ways in which it wouldn't be invasive on preexisting classes just to see if it's possible.

[Ersula]

It would honestly be lame if only Naaru-raised Forsaken can be paladins, the idea that the old ones could do it but it really hurts them is cool. It means they suffer but are still devout in their faith.

This actually brings up a good point: are we even sure they WILL make new Forsaken? Sylvanas did it post-Wrath to support the Jailer... why would Calia do it?

I can see her offering the choice to the people that Sylvanas killed in Before the Storm, but outside why would she be rezzing random corpses? Her character isn’t very developed yet but she doesn’t seem crazy or manipulative.

From the book we now know Sylvanas wasn't working for the Jailer yet during Stormheim. The Jailer first came to her in Edge of Night, but she didn't actually join him until Azeroth got stabbed. She legitimately wanted a way to make more forsaken when she used the lanturn. I'm a little sad that now the Valkyr have no association with the Forsaken because visually they are really iconic.

It seems like Saa'ra was their long-term plan for more forsaken: It's not directly explained but it seems Saa'ra's unique backstory of being a fully-corrupted naaru that has been purified is the reason Calia became undead. So anybody Saa'ra resurrects becomes forsaken.

I was hoping those undead Scarlet Crusaders Mal'ganis made could have been a forsaken allied race & that they could be paladins. That would make sense, but since then we now have 3 different Scarlet factions. The Scarlet Brotherhood in Stormwind, the reformed scarlets in new Hearthglen from the Priest order hall & the undead Scarlets in Tyr's Hand. You can say this recent Scarlet Crusade story beats means a precursor to Scarlet content, but this is how many times they've tried to reintroduce them into the plot & immediately abandoned them.