Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[therumblings]

Lore videos

MoP - The Burdens of Shao Hao
WoD - Lords of War
Legion - Harbingers
BFA - Warbringers
SL - Afterlives
DF - Dragonflights? each dragonflight leader talking?

It's all coming together. I can see it now.

[Catastrophy349]

Lore videos

MoP - The Burdens of Shao Hao
WoD - Lords of War
Legion - Harbingers
BFA - Warbringers
SL - Afterlives
DF - Dragonflights? each dragonflight leader talking?

Would be spicy!

[Golang]

At that point they shouldn't even bother tying it to the system in the first place. Just make it a dual-talent row. They lied and said the "grand design" prevented it but we know it's bullshit now. The only thing that doesn't easily swap is being able to bind a Covenant specific conduit to the Forge when you're on a different one.

Going back to Oribos to talk to the NPC is just a talent with extra steps, Rick!

Yep thats all it is now and I like it. Was thinking the same, just make it an extra talent row lol

[Hitei]

Lore videos

MoP - The Burdens of Shao Hao
WoD - Lords of War
Legion - Harbingers
BFA - Warbringers
SL - Afterlives
DF - Dragonflights? each dragonflight leader talking?

Aspects seems more likely.

[JDBlou]

Lore videos

MoP - The Burdens of Shao Hao
WoD - Lords of War
Legion - Harbingers
BFA - Warbringers
SL - Afterlives
DF - Dragonflights? each dragonflight leader talking?

Most likely related to the flights but are we going to get a Nozdormu or Chromie PoV one for bronze? Chromie's become quite popular.

[Catastrophy349]

Plot twist! Chromie sends us back in time to locate the Dragon Isles as they currently do not exist in our timeline.

[Vakir]

I understand the hate for borrowed power systems; however, I think they can also add flavor to each expansion, too. Alternatively, it feels bad to begin feeling powerful each expansion going from X.0 to X.2/3 patch only to leave all of it behind, start fresh, and do it all over again in another expansion. I wouldn't mind keeping some borrowed powers, bringing them to the following expansion and simply innovating them to fit the new theme/aesthetic.

I think a variation on Tier Sets are the way to go with that.

I think carrying on the Zereth Mortis forge idea is actually a decent way to do it. Instead of tying it directly to specific drops and an overly unified aesthetic from one source, have it be tied to a more broad system (like Torghast but not boring) as a way of upgrading individual pieces. Then each season it can roll back and have different bonuses to mix up play styles.

For individual dragonflights, they should just stick to aesthetic and cool activities. More timewalking shenanigans for Bronze! Healing the land and reforming zones as Emerald (within reason)! etc.

Yep thats all it is now and I like it. Was thinking the same, just make it an extra talent row lol

I think it's annoying having to talk to them every time (and their dialogue is comical if you swap multiple times daily like me) but it's ultimately better than what it was.

9.1.5 actively made the game better and gave MORE content by creating flexibility. "Meaningful choice" directly limits your ability to access all content in an already content-limited and time-gated game. The sooner people realize that, the better.

(Unpopular opinion, but that also extends to the factions. Fuck 'em.)

[Varolyn]

I don't think just adding new Dungeons/Raids/PvP BGs or arenas is enough in 2022. People will get extremely bored and quit. There has to be some form of further progression outside of this content.

Yeah, if there isn't some form of late game progression that isn't raids/dungeons/pvp, we just end up with another WoD. Which I understand some people may want that; some people really did like just having to log on once or twice a week, clear HFC, and then log off until the next reset. But to me, I do want a little bit more in the end game.

It's funny, because I actually think Legion was blizz's best iteration of the three "borrowed power systems," yet it was also their first attempt at it. While it was flawed, I did really like building up the traits in the artifact weapons and collecting the various appearances was pretty fun. The HoA actually wasn't too bad in terms of being a time sink when I look back on it, problem was the associated power was pretty dull for the first half of the expansion and didn't really get interesting until essences came. Covenants and nice lore, but they were awful in terms of how strict they were until very recently.

[Izalla]

Tieing it to power wasn't the problem. I love the covenant system the way it is currently. HOWEVER not letting you switch covenants freely killed it for most people.

Hell even the time gated story wouldn't have been too bad this xpac if we were able to switch covenants and progress the story of all of the covenants at the same time.

This is also part of the problem for me. Not the switching part, just the fact they tied so much story to the covenants. I have a ton of alts and with the class stories in Legion I couldn't wait to do the extra class stories but this just felt different. The class stories felt like they were for the classes but had some interesting tie ins and implications for the bigger story but you didn't miss any huge story beats (that I can remember) by not doing a class story. In Shadowlands I actually only did the Ardenweald covenant story because I just didn't end up leveling my alts for a long time and sooo many important plot points/the entire rest of each zone story are just dropped if you don't do each other covenant story. It just feels bad to me.

[SniperCT]

A huge reason I quit at the beginning of SL was that I hit 60, picked my covenant, and realized I was locked out of all the other covenant storylines unless I went through the hassle of restarting each covenant every time I wanted to see the next story. I wanted to do it all on my main, without essentially setting my progression back every time.

So I hope they don't repeat that part.

[Zaelsino]

A moment's silence for Malygos, still too dead to take part in a full-blown dragon expansion.

[Izalla]

A huge reason I quit at the beginning of SL was that I hit 60, picked my covenant, and realized I was locked out of all the other covenant storylines unless I went through the hassle of restarting each covenant every time I wanted to see the next story. I wanted to do it all on my main, without essentially setting my progression back every time.

So I hope they don't repeat that part.

Yeah being unable to just follow the story naturally probably contributed to how wonky and disjointed the story felt.

[Nightshade711]

Yeah, if there isn't some form of late game progression that isn't raids/dungeons/pvp, we just end up with another WoD. Which I understand some people may want that; some people really did like just having to log on once or twice a week, clear HFC, and then log off until the next reset. But to me, I do want a little bit more in the end game.

It's funny, because I actually think Legion was blizz's best iteration of the three "borrowed power systems," yet it was also their first attempt at it. While it was flawed, I did really like building up the traits in the artifact weapons and collecting the various appearances was pretty fun. The HoA actually wasn't too bad in terms of being a time sink when I look back on it, problem was the associated power was pretty dull for the first half of the expansion and didn't really get interesting until essences came. Covenants and nice lore, but they were awful in terms of how strict they were until very recently.

I agree.
I loved the whole system around legion artifacts, especially when they made the AP grind a bit easier. Especially the cosmetic options that you could unlock for your artifact by doing various forms of content.

I think if the heart of azeroth started out with essences and expanded on them a little more it would've been received a lot better, but blizzard was just working backwards in terms of borrowed power which left a sour taste in everyone's mouth.

[Vakir]

This is also part of the problem for me. Not the switching part, just the fact they tied so much story to the covenants. I have a ton of alts and with the class stories in Legion I couldn't wait to do the extra class stories but this just felt different. The class stories felt like they were for the classes but had some interesting tie ins and implications for the bigger story but you didn't miss any huge story beats (that I can remember) by not doing a class story. In Shadowlands I actually only did the Ardenweald covenant story because I just didn't end up leveling my alts for a long time and sooo many important plot points/the entire rest of each zone story are just dropped if you don't do each other covenant story. It just feels bad to me.

Yeah, class flavor makes sense as a thing that defines you from the beginning at the character creation screen and has always been permanent. This whole idea of "Oh, we want Covenants to be effectively a sub-class! You're making another big choice later like you did when you first made your character!" is bunk because it's ultimately just taking the concept of Reputation and doing a bunch of extraneous bullshit to justify extending it. There's nothing stopping me from helping everyone eventually at my own pace. The order in which one does that can be a choice, but not one that hinders you almost permanently.

I think if the heart of azeroth started out with essences and expanded on them a little more it would've been received a lot better, but blizzard was just working backwards in terms of borrowed power which left a sour taste in everyone's mouth.

This exchange still said EVERYTHING. (The first reply) 2 years later and nobody learned a fucking thing and people still defended the mewling failure on release.

[SniperCT]

Yeah being unable to just follow the story naturally probably contributed to how wonky and disjointed the story felt.

Exactly. Plus honestly, not one of the covenants really suited my main, like at all.

I actually kind of regret the SL purchase and the 6 month sub I got before 9.0 dropped. Which is a first since I've never regretted any expansion before (not even BFA. At least I got enough entertainment out of that one before I quit. And I almost didn't come back for SL at all but I'm a bit OCD about getting my main to levle cap lol)

[Nightshade711]

I do wonder what system they'll put in place that they'll refuse to make requested changes on until halfway through the expansion

[SniperCT]

I agree.
I loved the whole system around legion artifacts, especially when they made the AP grind a bit easier. Especially the cosmetic options that you could unlock for your artifact by doing various forms of content.

I think if the heart of azeroth started out with essences and expanded on them a little more it would've been received a lot better, but blizzard was just working backwards in terms of borrowed power which left a sour taste in everyone's mouth.

Artifacts were perfect IMO. A good balance of progression and appearance.

[KainneAbsolute]

I agree.
I think if the heart of azeroth started out with essences and expanded on them a little more it would've been received a lot better, but blizzard was just working backwards in terms of borrowed power which left a sour taste in everyone's mouth.

I agree. I enjoyed changing legiondaries and essences/corruption to try different builds or playstyles. In some way, I wish those system still exist as alternative progression paths, but maybe is too difficult to balance.

[Vakir]

Artifacts were perfect IMO. A good balance of progression and appearance.

With a caveat - they were perfect AFTER 7.1.

A big problem I had was that the progression of AP needed was tied to direct power (0.5% increases at break points) and were not exponential in growth, leading to the need to do some insane grinding for Nighthold because you could theoretically do it. Even if you weren't at the bleeding edge of progression, if you feel down when you're not at your peak, you're still within the range where it feels like a chore. Exponential growth is meant to prevent that.

Once they made it exponential and had the final tier be +stamina percentage, that was where it hit a sweet spot.

On the whole, classes were still reliant on the borrowed power of their artifact weapon, but you got everything eventually, and you got a ton of perks compared to the amount you had to "pick" later in BFA and SL. They're still rolling tons into talents now at the expense of talents they outright removed. Even with the de-pruning, many specs have less now than they did 4 years ago.

EDIT: Legiondaries were another easy fix. Just have Wakening Essences in from the beginning but have a higher cost on them to prevent people just tunneling their BIS. Lower them later for catchup reasons. This is where the lessons in Torghast may've worked back then, but tying it to something other than the same fucking roguelite over and over. Getting currency from MANY activities.

[SniperCT]

With a caveat - they were perfect AFTER 7.1.

A big problem I had was that the progression of AP needed was tied to direct power (0.5% increases at break points) and were not exponential in growth, leading to the need to do some insane grinding for Nighthold because you could theoretically do it. Even if you weren't at the bleeding edge of progression, if you feel down when you're not at your peak, you're still within the range where it feels like a chore. Exponential growth is meant to prevent that.

Once they made it exponential and had the final tier be +stamina percentage, that was where it hit a sweet spot.

On the whole, classes were still reliant on the borrowed power of their artifact weapon, but you got everything eventually, and you got a ton of perks compared to the amount you had to "pick" later in BFA and SL. They're still rolling tons into talents now at the expense of talents they outright removed. Even with the de-pruning, many specs have less now than they did 4 years ago.

What I'd hoped they'd do after legion was roll that entire system into the actual character. So it would be an alternate progression system to levels.

Honestly at this point they should just wholesale lift the champion points system in ESO into WoW. That would definitely be a big pull to bring me back, at least. Keep level 60 forever, make it cross account so as soon as an alt hits 60 they have all the same points your main has. Makes catching up alts a lot easier, basically more like the old days when it was just rep and gear.