1. #34561
    Quote Originally Posted by Catastrophy349 View Post
    I don't think just adding new Dungeons/Raids/PvP BGs or arenas is enough in 2022. People will get extremely bored and quit. There has to be some form of further progression outside of this content.
    Yeah, if there isn't some form of late game progression that isn't raids/dungeons/pvp, we just end up with another WoD. Which I understand some people may want that; some people really did like just having to log on once or twice a week, clear HFC, and then log off until the next reset. But to me, I do want a little bit more in the end game.

    It's funny, because I actually think Legion was blizz's best iteration of the three "borrowed power systems," yet it was also their first attempt at it. While it was flawed, I did really like building up the traits in the artifact weapons and collecting the various appearances was pretty fun. The HoA actually wasn't too bad in terms of being a time sink when I look back on it, problem was the associated power was pretty dull for the first half of the expansion and didn't really get interesting until essences came. Covenants and nice lore, but they were awful in terms of how strict they were until very recently.

  2. #34562
    The Lightbringer Izalla's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Nova Scotia
    Posts
    3,525
    Quote Originally Posted by Golang View Post
    Tieing it to power wasn't the problem. I love the covenant system the way it is currently. HOWEVER not letting you switch covenants freely killed it for most people.

    Hell even the time gated story wouldn't have been too bad this xpac if we were able to switch covenants and progress the story of all of the covenants at the same time.
    This is also part of the problem for me. Not the switching part, just the fact they tied so much story to the covenants. I have a ton of alts and with the class stories in Legion I couldn't wait to do the extra class stories but this just felt different. The class stories felt like they were for the classes but had some interesting tie ins and implications for the bigger story but you didn't miss any huge story beats (that I can remember) by not doing a class story. In Shadowlands I actually only did the Ardenweald covenant story because I just didn't end up leveling my alts for a long time and sooo many important plot points/the entire rest of each zone story are just dropped if you don't do each other covenant story. It just feels bad to me.
    give up dat booty
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendra View Post
    <3
    For the matriarchy.

  3. #34563
    A huge reason I quit at the beginning of SL was that I hit 60, picked my covenant, and realized I was locked out of all the other covenant storylines unless I went through the hassle of restarting each covenant every time I wanted to see the next story. I wanted to do it all on my main, without essentially setting my progression back every time.

    So I hope they don't repeat that part.

  4. #34564
    New Kid Zaelsino's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Bristol, England
    Posts
    14,908
    A moment's silence for Malygos, still too dead to take part in a full-blown dragon expansion.


  5. #34565
    The Lightbringer Izalla's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Nova Scotia
    Posts
    3,525
    Quote Originally Posted by SniperCT View Post
    A huge reason I quit at the beginning of SL was that I hit 60, picked my covenant, and realized I was locked out of all the other covenant storylines unless I went through the hassle of restarting each covenant every time I wanted to see the next story. I wanted to do it all on my main, without essentially setting my progression back every time.

    So I hope they don't repeat that part.
    Yeah being unable to just follow the story naturally probably contributed to how wonky and disjointed the story felt.
    give up dat booty
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendra View Post
    <3
    For the matriarchy.

  6. #34566
    Herald of the Titans Nightshade711's Avatar
    1+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2022
    Location
    K’aresh
    Posts
    2,886
    Quote Originally Posted by Varolyn View Post
    Yeah, if there isn't some form of late game progression that isn't raids/dungeons/pvp, we just end up with another WoD. Which I understand some people may want that; some people really did like just having to log on once or twice a week, clear HFC, and then log off until the next reset. But to me, I do want a little bit more in the end game.

    It's funny, because I actually think Legion was blizz's best iteration of the three "borrowed power systems," yet it was also their first attempt at it. While it was flawed, I did really like building up the traits in the artifact weapons and collecting the various appearances was pretty fun. The HoA actually wasn't too bad in terms of being a time sink when I look back on it, problem was the associated power was pretty dull for the first half of the expansion and didn't really get interesting until essences came. Covenants and nice lore, but they were awful in terms of how strict they were until very recently.
    I agree.
    I loved the whole system around legion artifacts, especially when they made the AP grind a bit easier. Especially the cosmetic options that you could unlock for your artifact by doing various forms of content.

    I think if the heart of azeroth started out with essences and expanded on them a little more it would've been received a lot better, but blizzard was just working backwards in terms of borrowed power which left a sour taste in everyone's mouth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Chen isn't a Monk

  7. #34567
    Quote Originally Posted by Izalla View Post
    This is also part of the problem for me. Not the switching part, just the fact they tied so much story to the covenants. I have a ton of alts and with the class stories in Legion I couldn't wait to do the extra class stories but this just felt different. The class stories felt like they were for the classes but had some interesting tie ins and implications for the bigger story but you didn't miss any huge story beats (that I can remember) by not doing a class story. In Shadowlands I actually only did the Ardenweald covenant story because I just didn't end up leveling my alts for a long time and sooo many important plot points/the entire rest of each zone story are just dropped if you don't do each other covenant story. It just feels bad to me.
    Yeah, class flavor makes sense as a thing that defines you from the beginning at the character creation screen and has always been permanent. This whole idea of "Oh, we want Covenants to be effectively a sub-class! You're making another big choice later like you did when you first made your character!" is bunk because it's ultimately just taking the concept of Reputation and doing a bunch of extraneous bullshit to justify extending it. There's nothing stopping me from helping everyone eventually at my own pace. The order in which one does that can be a choice, but not one that hinders you almost permanently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    I think if the heart of azeroth started out with essences and expanded on them a little more it would've been received a lot better, but blizzard was just working backwards in terms of borrowed power which left a sour taste in everyone's mouth.
    This exchange still said EVERYTHING. (The first reply) 2 years later and nobody learned a fucking thing and people still defended the mewling failure on release.

  8. #34568
    Quote Originally Posted by Izalla View Post
    Yeah being unable to just follow the story naturally probably contributed to how wonky and disjointed the story felt.
    Exactly. Plus honestly, not one of the covenants really suited my main, like at all.

    I actually kind of regret the SL purchase and the 6 month sub I got before 9.0 dropped. Which is a first since I've never regretted any expansion before (not even BFA. At least I got enough entertainment out of that one before I quit. And I almost didn't come back for SL at all but I'm a bit OCD about getting my main to levle cap lol)

  9. #34569
    Herald of the Titans Nightshade711's Avatar
    1+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2022
    Location
    K’aresh
    Posts
    2,886
    I do wonder what system they'll put in place that they'll refuse to make requested changes on until halfway through the expansion
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Chen isn't a Monk

  10. #34570
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    I agree.
    I loved the whole system around legion artifacts, especially when they made the AP grind a bit easier. Especially the cosmetic options that you could unlock for your artifact by doing various forms of content.

    I think if the heart of azeroth started out with essences and expanded on them a little more it would've been received a lot better, but blizzard was just working backwards in terms of borrowed power which left a sour taste in everyone's mouth.
    Artifacts were perfect IMO. A good balance of progression and appearance.

  11. #34571
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    I agree.
    I think if the heart of azeroth started out with essences and expanded on them a little more it would've been received a lot better, but blizzard was just working backwards in terms of borrowed power which left a sour taste in everyone's mouth.
    I agree. I enjoyed changing legiondaries and essences/corruption to try different builds or playstyles. In some way, I wish those system still exist as alternative progression paths, but maybe is too difficult to balance.

  12. #34572
    Quote Originally Posted by SniperCT View Post
    Artifacts were perfect IMO. A good balance of progression and appearance.
    With a caveat - they were perfect AFTER 7.1.

    A big problem I had was that the progression of AP needed was tied to direct power (0.5% increases at break points) and were not exponential in growth, leading to the need to do some insane grinding for Nighthold because you could theoretically do it. Even if you weren't at the bleeding edge of progression, if you feel down when you're not at your peak, you're still within the range where it feels like a chore. Exponential growth is meant to prevent that.

    Once they made it exponential and had the final tier be +stamina percentage, that was where it hit a sweet spot.

    On the whole, classes were still reliant on the borrowed power of their artifact weapon, but you got everything eventually, and you got a ton of perks compared to the amount you had to "pick" later in BFA and SL. They're still rolling tons into talents now at the expense of talents they outright removed. Even with the de-pruning, many specs have less now than they did 4 years ago.

    EDIT: Legiondaries were another easy fix. Just have Wakening Essences in from the beginning but have a higher cost on them to prevent people just tunneling their BIS. Lower them later for catchup reasons. This is where the lessons in Torghast may've worked back then, but tying it to something other than the same fucking roguelite over and over. Getting currency from MANY activities.
    Last edited by Vakir; 2022-04-03 at 03:33 AM.

  13. #34573
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    With a caveat - they were perfect AFTER 7.1.

    A big problem I had was that the progression of AP needed was tied to direct power (0.5% increases at break points) and were not exponential in growth, leading to the need to do some insane grinding for Nighthold because you could theoretically do it. Even if you weren't at the bleeding edge of progression, if you feel down when you're not at your peak, you're still within the range where it feels like a chore. Exponential growth is meant to prevent that.

    Once they made it exponential and had the final tier be +stamina percentage, that was where it hit a sweet spot.

    On the whole, classes were still reliant on the borrowed power of their artifact weapon, but you got everything eventually, and you got a ton of perks compared to the amount you had to "pick" later in BFA and SL. They're still rolling tons into talents now at the expense of talents they outright removed. Even with the de-pruning, many specs have less now than they did 4 years ago.
    What I'd hoped they'd do after legion was roll that entire system into the actual character. So it would be an alternate progression system to levels.

    Honestly at this point they should just wholesale lift the champion points system in ESO into WoW. That would definitely be a big pull to bring me back, at least. Keep level 60 forever, make it cross account so as soon as an alt hits 60 they have all the same points your main has. Makes catching up alts a lot easier, basically more like the old days when it was just rep and gear.

  14. #34574
    The Lightbringer Izalla's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Nova Scotia
    Posts
    3,525
    Quote Originally Posted by SniperCT View Post
    Exactly. Plus honestly, not one of the covenants really suited my main, like at all.

    I actually kind of regret the SL purchase and the 6 month sub I got before 9.0 dropped. Which is a first since I've never regretted any expansion before (not even BFA. At least I got enough entertainment out of that one before I quit. And I almost didn't come back for SL at all but I'm a bit OCD about getting my main to levle cap lol)
    I had a newborn at the time Shadowlands released and I genuinely can't tell if it was having to spend so much time with her that caused me to feel disconnected from Shadowlands (first expac this has happened to me) or if it was Shadowlands itself, or if it was a mixture of both. I think it was a mixture of both, even though from before launch until now I don't dislike Shadowlands. There's just something that is missing or didn't click, or a few somethings. Maybe a few somethings that have been missing for a while but other aspects of each expac made up for it for me. Like I know people hate BfA but I loved it and I leveled so many characters through those zones, but I can barely bring myself to start Bastion on each next alt.
    Last edited by Izalla; 2022-04-03 at 03:40 AM.
    give up dat booty
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendra View Post
    <3
    For the matriarchy.

  15. #34575
    Warchief Catastrophy349's Avatar
    1+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2022
    Location
    What Sword? That Sword!
    Posts
    2,161
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    I do wonder what system they'll put in place that they'll refuse to make requested changes on until halfway through the expansion
    I don’t think you need to worry about that in 10.0. They’ve learned a lot from Shadowlands.

  16. #34576
    The Lightbringer Izalla's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Nova Scotia
    Posts
    3,525
    Legion artifacts were also so much simpler in that you had a weapon, you dumped power into it, you spent that power in it. The BfA version was similar but weirder and didn't make the same kind of narrative sense (a weapon you keep infusing versus a necklace that infuses three pieces of your armour? It felt way more designed). And then you get Shadowlands having choosing your covenant and choosing your soulbind and choosing the conduits and it was just very convoluted and I couldn't bring myself to care about it beyond picking the covenant for aesthetic/class/race/thematic reasons.
    give up dat booty
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendra View Post
    <3
    For the matriarchy.

  17. #34577
    Quote Originally Posted by Izalla View Post
    There's just something that is missing or didn't click, or a new somethings. Maybe a few somethings that have been missing for a while but other aspects of each expac made up for it for me. Like I know people hate BfA but I loved it and I leveled so many characters through those zones, but I can barely bring myself to start Bastion on each next alt.
    same, actually. there's no external factors for me, SL just doesn't feel like wow - and BfA did.

  18. #34578
    Quote Originally Posted by Catastrophy349 View Post
    I don’t think you need to worry about that in 10.0. They’ve learned a lot from Shadowlands.
    Caught you before the edit!

    Cough 'em up.

  19. #34579
    The Lightbringer Izalla's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Nova Scotia
    Posts
    3,525
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    That's beautiful hahaha
    give up dat booty
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendra View Post
    <3
    For the matriarchy.

  20. #34580
    If they bring Chromatus. bring us Galakrond! undead, resurrected, or from an alternative universe!

    ------------------------------------------
    At this rate, I think Blizzard is trying to revive all the successful features. We have the mage tower, the leak says some order hall return, more customization.

    Maybe we are getting a Quelthalas warfront to repel the scourge weekly.
    Last edited by KainneAbsolute; 2022-04-03 at 03:44 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •