Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[SniperCT]

Man if rogue gets a 4th spec I want to be a tank, I've wanted to have a tank spec since vanilla.

I mean it's gonna end at some point. By the time 13.0 comes out game will be about 30 years old.

EQ is 23 years old and came out with a new expansion 5 months ago. WoW could easily go to 30 years old if they can course correct.

Given some creativity (and if the money is still there, which it obviously is for EQ) one could easily start a new cycle of stories after 13.0

[Nymrohd]

Yep Rogue just hasn't felt the same to play since. I miss feeling like a rapscallion vs just a guy with energy and combo points but not a cat that the class has felt like since then.

Honestly the Legion Class fantasy was such a success. At the end of the day one of the primary reason people play RPGs is to play fiction archetypes and to have a power fantasy and Legion combined both. It was a mistake to give up on class halls and a mistake to give up artifacts.

[KayRule]

I really can't see how anyone could be happy with the idea of these micro classes.

It's the biggest worry of the Dragonflight premise.

The fact that there are so many people in the wow userbase who think like this is why the game will never be able to meaningful change it's severely flawed fundamentals.

Micoclasses solve huge ongoing and compounding issues with class design, which has made the addition of a class such a monumental task. They made the right call with Demon Hunter and only 2 specs, objectively, in every way possible it was a positive decision. Yet then, and even now to a hypothetical leak, the fanbase can only focus on numbers and feeling like they're ripped off. It's the same thing with the level squish all over again.

Even worse, their proposed response is "actually I hope instead it's just more specs for existing classes".

[Fahrad Wagner]

Honestly the Legion Class fantasy was such a success. At the end of the day one of the primary reason people play RPGs is to play fiction archetypes and to have a power fantasy and Legion combined both. It was a mistake to give up on class halls and a mistake to give up artifacts.

I miss the Mage OH so much, and had so much fun as a Hunter and a Rogue too in Legion, they did a fantastic job

[Izalla]

Somehow accidentally deleted my post.

To iterate, while I think microclasses are a very smart solution to design problems, and having the entire expansion be endgame would be a very bold move and take several steps forward in the stagnating expansion design philosophy, I sadly don't think the text leak is real, just a lucky guess.

Missing too many things we know under the hood, LivingWorld systems, the new stable features. The incorrect dates given.

Unlike the original bad Shadowlands leak, I would be more than happy to be proven wrong, but too much doesn't add up.

Yeah the sheer amount of detail about the rest (way too much compared to 99% of the real leaks) and no mention of what the living world thing is about is suspicious.

[Santandame]

The fact that there are so many people in the wow userbase who think like this is why the game will never be able to meaningful change it's severely flawed fundamentals.

Micoclasses solve huge ongoing and compounding issues with class design, which has made the addition of a class such a monumental task. They made the right call with Demon Hunter and only 2 specs, objectively, in every way possible it was a positive decision. Yet then, and even now to a hypothetical leak, the fanbase can only focus on numbers and feeling like they're ripped off. It's the same thing with the level squish all over again.

Even worse, their proposed response is "actually I hope instead it's just more specs for existing classes".

Can you please elaborate on why you think that both Tinker and Dragonknight would work better as one spec only each?

Tinker has the potential for three fleshed out specs.

Those specs being a Tank, Ranged DPS and Healer.

Dragonknight has potential for four.

This is not about arbitrarily focusing on numbers and feeling robbed. We would be robbed of play styles.

You talk about solving balancing issues. What about PvP? If Dragonknight is tank only - what do you say to someone who loves the class identity of playing as a Dragonknight but also wants to play ranked arena. Reroll?

Come on. This does not solve any class balancing issue in the slightest. It restricts players.

[Fahrad Wagner]

Yeah the sheer amount of detail about the rest (way too much compared to 99% of the real leaks) and no mention of what the living world thing is about is suspicious.

The living world might just be a mechanic part of the revamp rather than some big feature. Like, enhanced meteo effects and NPC interactions. That wouldn't make it to the key features, it's more of a side bonus just my opinion

[SniperCT]

The fact that there are so many people in the wow userbase who think like this is why the game will never be able to meaningful change it's severely flawed fundamentals.

Micoclasses solve huge ongoing and compounding issues with class design, which has made the addition of a class such a monumental task. They made the right call with Demon Hunter and only 2 specs, objectively, in every way possible it was a positive decision. Yet then, and even now to a hypothetical leak, the fanbase can only focus on numbers and feeling like they're ripped off. It's the same thing with the level squish all over again.

Even worse, their proposed response is "actually I hope instead it's just more specs for existing classes".

The only way microclasses would work is if they let you play multiple classes on one character, ala FF14. (I'd be all for this, there was a certain level of freedom in picking up a new class without having to start your character over that was refreshing and welcome)

Though lore-wise that then becomes a little difficult. Have to explain how you could be a death knight and a paladin, among other things. Those are the two most anathema to each other though.

[SniperCT]

Oh I agree completely. Artifacts should have been permanent. Each expansion can give us a new one to work on themed to that expansion. Instead we get ugly ass weapons that look like vendor greens.

If not permanent, they could have rolled the concept into our base characters. Wouldn't need to raise the level cap ever again. (then they could make AP account wide and catching up alts becomes a lot easier.)

[Polybius]

Yeah the sheer amount of detail about the rest (way too much compared to 99% of the real leaks) and no mention of what the living world thing is about is suspicious.

I thought LivingWorld was just a namespace to group all revamp assets.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Honestly the Legion Class fantasy was such a success. At the end of the day one of the primary reason people play RPGs is to play fiction archetypes and to have a power fantasy and Legion combined both. It was a mistake to give up on class halls and a mistake to give up artifacts.

Well some of them worked.

Others (calling out you here Hunter) felt like they were there just because Blizz had to come up with something for them.

[Kiria]

Im all for the micro classes, it would be very similar to FFXIV then the only thing we are missing is being able to do multiple classes on 1 character

[Nymrohd]

The fact that there are so many people in the wow userbase who think like this is why the game will never be able to meaningful change it's severely flawed fundamentals.

Micoclasses solve huge ongoing and compounding issues with class design, which has made the addition of a class such a monumental task. They made the right call with Demon Hunter and only 2 specs, objectively, in every way possible it was a positive decision. Yet then, and even now to a hypothetical leak, the fanbase can only focus on numbers and feeling like they're ripped off. It's the same thing with the level squish all over again.

Even worse, their proposed response is "actually I hope instead it's just more specs for existing classes".

The game is just not nearly friendly enough for alts as it is. Make the game alt friendly, make it possible for me to pick a new archetype and just play it without spending 60 Euro or hours doing content I've done already and is not even remotely challenging so as to be interesting and then classes with one or two specs could be a solid idea to introduce the literally dozen of archetypes that exist in lore but not in game. Witch Doctors, Shadow Hunters, Dark Rangers, Apothecaries, Priestess of the Moon, Wardens, Tinkers, Necromancers, Bards, Spellblades, Runemasters, Apothecaries just off the top of my head. All would be better of being classes without specs or maybe just one of them. But as long as the game requires me to either pay a substantial amount or spend several days of boring game time just to be able to get to the part I actually will enjoy, I don't need new classes.

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Well some of them worked.

Others (calling out you here Hunter) felt like they were there just because Blizz had to come up with something for them.

Absolutely. Several were just completely uninspired.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Im all for the micro classes, it would be very similar to FFXIV then the only thing we are missing is being able to do multiple classes on 1 character

Kind of a big missing piece given "alt unfriendlyness" has been WoW's constant complaint since WoD.

Only way it works is if they take all that endgame stuff and make it fully account-wide.

[KayRule]

Can you please elaborate on why you think that both Tinker and Dragonknight would work better as one spec only each?

For the last several expansions, class design has been in a constant state of dissatisfaction. Every expansion is delivered with spec and class overhauls that still end with everyone upset. Specs didn't feel diverse enough, now they feel too diverse. Spell pruning removing iconic abilities, or locking them into one spec. Outside of a few exceptions, this has been a constant battle of design which every expansion ends with largely everyone unhappy. One of the only classes that doesn't have this problem is DH, because it's very focused and cleanly designed.

I would much rather have tightly designed single spec classes, or dual-spec classes, than stretching concepts out over 3 (or god forbid 4) specs. I'd much rather have a 1 spec class that feels uniquley like a class, than a 4th spec that is arbitrarily tied to 3 others.

[SniperCT]

Kind of a big missing piece given "alt unfriendlyness" has been WoW's constant complaint since WoD.

Only way it works is if they take all that endgame stuff and make it fully account-wide.

That would be amazing. Also tie in with my suggestion to lift ESO's champion point system. I don't even play ESO that frequently anymore but it's still one of the best parts of that game.

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For the last several expansions, class design has been in a constant state of dissatisfaction. Every expansion is delivered with spec and class overhauls that still end with everyone upset. Specs didn't feel diverse enough, now they feel too diverse. Spell pruning removing iconic abilities, or locking them into one spec. Outside of a few exceptions, this has been a constant battle of design which every expansion ends with largely everyone unhappy. One of the only classes that doesn't have this problem is DH, because it's very focused and cleanly designed.

I would much rather have tightly designed single spec classes, or dual-spec classes, than stretching concepts out over 3 (or god forbid 4) specs. I'd much rather have a 1 spec class that feels uniquley like a class, than a 4th spec that is arbitrarily tied to 3 others.

With a few exceptions, I've found I haven't really enjoyed any of the individual way the specs play since MoP. (and in some cases I haven't enjoyed a spec since Wrath, looking at you Disc Priest)

I don't know how they fix that, though.

[Polybius]

For the last several expansions, class design has been in a constant state of dissatisfaction. Every expansion is delivered with spec and class overhauls that still end with everyone upset. Specs didn't feel diverse enough, now they feel too diverse. Spell pruning removing iconic abilities, or locking them into one spec. Outside of a few exceptions, this has been a constant battle of design which every expansion ends with largely everyone unhappy. One of the only classes that doesn't have this problem is DH, because it's very focused and cleanly designed.

I would much rather have tightly designed single spec classes, or dual-spec classes, than stretching concepts out over 3 (or god forbid 4) specs. I'd much rather have a 1 spec class that feels uniquley like a class, than a 4th spec that is arbitrarily tied to 3 others.

Might be easier to balance if it's class skins, or new classes with specs adopting existing ones, reskinned specs basically.

[KayRule]

The game is just not nearly friendly enough for alts as it is. Make the game alt friendly, make it possible for me to pick a new archetype and just play it without spending 60 Euro or hours doing content I've done already and is not even remotely challenging so as to be interesting and then classes with one or two specs could be a solid idea to introduce the literally dozen of archetypes that exist in lore but not in game. Witch Doctors, Shadow Hunters, Dark Rangers, Apothecaries, Priestess of the Moon, Wardens, Tinkers, Necromancers, Bards, Spellblades, Runemasters, Apothecaries just off the top of my head. All would be better of being classes without specs or maybe just one of them. But as long as the game requires me to either pay a substantial amount or spend several days of boring game time just to be able to get to the part I actually will enjoy, I don't need new classes.

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Absolutely. Several were just completely uninspired.

Yeah agreed, 100%. The "Alt" design philosophy with WoW has been absolutely terrible. Too much content, such as races and classes, are mired down by the complete full commitment you need to make a new character to play and experience them. And that's literally by design. Playing content AGAIN but with a new class or new race, is seen as content in WoW designers eyes. I seldom play more than a single character, sometimes two, because of the amount of work required to maintain anymore than that. For a game that likes to prop up class and race archetypes, it does not in anyway make the concept of making a new character to try these out appealing.

[Santandame]

For the last several expansions, class design has been in a constant state of dissatisfaction. Every expansion is delivered with spec and class overhauls that still end with everyone upset. Specs didn't feel diverse enough, now they feel too diverse. Spell pruning removing iconic abilities, or locking them into one spec. Outside of a few exceptions, this has been a constant battle of design which every expansion ends with largely everyone unhappy. One of the only classes that doesn't have this problem is DH, because it's very focused and cleanly designed.

I would much rather have tightly designed single spec classes, or dual-spec classes, than stretching concepts out over 3 (or god forbid 4) specs. I'd much rather have a 1 spec class that feels uniquley like a class, than a 4th spec that is arbitrarily tied to 3 others.

I would have absolutely zero issue with dual spec classes.

Single spec classes are not the answer nor the solution though. As outlined in my previous edited post.

You make some fair and well thought out points. But I disagree entirely that single spec classes are a good idea. They are a huge problem waiting to happen

Dual spec is a happy medium.

[Kiria]

Kind of a big missing piece given "alt unfriendlyness" has been WoW's constant complaint since WoD.

Only way it works is if they take all that endgame stuff and make it fully account-wide.

Yeah I get that but at least in WoW you can level easily purely through Dungeon running or PvP, I either hope for account wide reps to start happening or they work on introducing the job system into WoW.