Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Nymrohd]

You guys do realise that lowering the barriers of class swapping just forces the perceived meta even more right? We all know that if class X spec Y is the best possible choice to fill a slot, groups will not be satisfied with anything else when people just have to talk to an NPC or hit a button to switch to that spec. Everybody who has played a traditionally off-meta spec knows this.

The meta only engages people doing M+ above 15 and Mythic raiding, a tiny minority of the playerbase. While some tryhards will talk about it below that level, most people who underperform do not underperform because they are not meta, they underperform because they suck at WoW (and often don't care to get good). And really when M+ was added we saw the most restrictive meta in WoW's history. At least in raiding you often have a third of the specs being top tier; with M+ you often have ONE tank, ONE healer and maybe 4-5 dps (often as little as 2-3) when it comes to high level keys.

So we really should not focus on the meta.

[KayRule]

I thought LivingWorld was just a namespace to group all revamp assets.

No, they're animation names tied to something we don't have in our clients/PTR clients. It's a systems name, not an expansion/category name.

[Santandame]

I understand the ability/spec bloat concern some have.

However, classes like Tinker and Dragonknight both have rich and plentiful themes and ideas that could facilitate new and different playstyles. Dragonknight could give us our true battlemage style spec, on top of a tank spec. It shouldn't be condensed into a one spec class. Dual spec would work.

Tinker has the Mech themed tank role, which would be different to every other tank in both theme and playstyle, a ranged spec which is sorely needed in the game right now, and a potentially interesting and different healer role with the Medic/Alchemist idea.

The issue to me lies with the current pure DPS classes in game; Rogue, Mage, Warlock and to a much lesser extent - Hunter. The first three in particular could all remove or rework one existing spec into a different spec/role, to fix the problem with them feeling samey. Actually, BM could probably even be worked into a tank spec.

[Nymrohd]

Why are people so obsessed with new classes

A huge part of rpgs is choosing an archetype and playing with it. Warcraft has done an amazing job of establishing a truly staggering array of archetypes, especially some that are truly specific and tied to race. And then has made only some of them available. Doubt it is even a majority. People have been trying with transmog and toys to be able to play as archetypes they love for ages. Class skin threads are so popular on most WoW forums, as a possible way for people to be able to experience an archetype.

[KayRule]

I understand the ability/spec bloat concern some have.

However, classes like Tinker and Dragonknight both have rich and plentiful themes and ideas that could facilitate new and different playstyles. Dragonknight could give us our true battlemage style spec, on top of a tank spec. It shouldn't be condensed into a one spec class. Dual spec would work.

Tinker has the Mech themed tank role, which would be different to every other tank in both theme and playstyle, a ranged spec which is sorely needed in the game right now, and a potentially interesting and different healer role with the Medic/Alchemist idea.

The issue to me lies with the current pure DPS classes in game; Rogue, Mage, Warlock and to a much lesser extent - Hunter. The first three in particular could all remove or rework one existing spec into a different spec/role, to fix the problem with them feeling samey.

I think it's more along the lines of this. Do you want ONLY Tinker, with 3/4 specs, tomorrow, then maybe another classes with 3 specs in 6-7 years. Or would you like 4 classes this year with 1 spec. And then maybe 2 classes with 1 spec in 3 years. It opens up the design space so we can get more archetypes and fantasies much faster and in our hands than before. It's kind of like how Allied Races let us get almost double the amount of races over the span of 2 years.

[Wangming]

No, they're animation names tied to something we don't have in our clients/PTR clients. It's a systems name, not an expansion/category name.

So it's the new borrowed power?

[Santandame]

I think it's more along the lines of this. Do you want ONLY Tinker, with 3/4 specs, tomorrow, then maybe another classes with 3 specs in 6-7 years. Or would you like 4 classes this year with 1 spec. And then maybe 2 classes with 1 spec in 3 years. It opens up the design space so we can get more archetypes and fantasies much faster and in our hands than before. It's kind of like how Allied Races let us get almost double the amount of races over the span of 2 years.

I see where you're coming from, I really do.

But I just can't ever understand how single specs would work. I gave my example in regards to Dragonknight earlier but what about those who have always wanted to play a Bard, but are pigeon holed into playing the only Bard spec which is a healer? What if they don't like healing? What if they aren't good at it, or are anxious about healing and therefore don't feel comfortable? At least a second DPS spec would facilitate those kinds of players.

What about our poor Teriz being forced to play a Tinker as DPS when he's always wanted to play as a Mech piloting tank?

I'll definitely agree dual spec is a good idea. I just can't get behind single spec classes from both a balancing perspective and possible player engagement perspective.

The easiest solution if single spec classes were to be a thing would be just to make them pure DPS I guess, but that would just feel underwhelming, wouldn't it?

[TomatoBisque]

I think it's more along the lines of this. Do you want ONLY Tinker, with 3/4 specs, tomorrow, then maybe another classes with 3 specs in 6-7 years. Or would you like 4 classes this year with 1 spec. And then maybe 2 classes with 1 spec in 3 years. It opens up the design space so we can get more archetypes and fantasies much faster and in our hands than before. It's kind of like how Allied Races let us get almost double the amount of races over the span of 2 years.

Allied Races and "mini-classes" are in no way comparable. The former have a lot of reused assets from pre-existing playable races (notably skeletons) and take a lot less work to create

For a mini-class to require the same amount of work reduction it would have to reuse pre-existing assets from another spec. So a Dark Ranger would just be an MM hunter but with different visuals and slight mechanical changes.

[Villager720]

On top of all the other issues with these micro classes (art, balance, leveling, pvp, meta, etc) that others and myself have called out, do we really think they’d add another class with the DK initials? I mean… how many straws are needed to break this camels back?

And at what point do we say : if they’re throwing this much stuff at us (even stuff never heard of before in lore), does that leave anything for the future?
4 new, full classes could literally carry the game into 2032 if released one every other expansion. Why do halfassed 1 spec versions (requiring the same amount of art as a full class) in one giant wave? What’s 12.0 going to have?

[Wangming]

I see where you're coming from, I really do.

But I just can't ever understand how single specs would work. I gave my example in regards to Dragonknight earlier but what about those who have always wanted to play a Bard, but are pigeon holed into playing the only Bard spec which is a healer? What if they don't like healing? What if they aren't good at it, or are anxious about healing and therefore don't feel comfortable? At least a second DPS spec would facilitate those kinds of players.

What about our poor Teriz being forced to play a Tinker as DPS when he's always wanted to play as a Mech piloting tank?

I'll definitely agree dual spec is a good idea. I just can't get behind single spec classes from both a balancing perspective and possible player engagement perspective.

The easiest solution if single spec classes were to be a thing would be just to make them pure DPS I guess, but that would just feel underwhelming, wouldn't it?

No, the easiest solution would be for people to get out of their comfort zone. Take me, for example. In all my years in WoW, I was a DPS. Every MMO I tried, I was a DPS cause I was affraid of the responsibility. I also mained DPS at first in FFXIV, but when I was kinda bored with doing the same thing over again, i started leveling healers and I actually enjoyed them a lot. And while Ninja is still my main I like to do healing from time to time. The feeling of being in control of the battlefield is great.

[Polybius]

I see where you're coming from, I really do.

But I just can't ever understand how single specs would work. I gave my example in regards to Dragonknight earlier but what about those who have always wanted to play a Bard, but are pigeon holed into playing the only Bard spec which is a healer? What if they don't like healing? What if they aren't good at it, or are anxious about healing and therefore don't feel comfortable? At least a second DPS spec would facilitate those kinds of players.

What about our poor Teriz being forced to play a Tinker as DPS when he's always wanted to play as a Mech piloting tank?

I'll definitely agree dual spec is a good idea. I just can't get behind single spec classes from both a balancing perspective and possible player engagement perspective.

The easiest solution if single spec classes were to be a thing would be just to make them pure DPS I guess, but that would just feel underwhelming, wouldn't it?

Maybe they'll add more specs over time?

[Nymrohd]

I see where you're coming from, I really do.

But I just can't ever understand how single specs would work. I gave my example in regards to Dragonknight earlier but what about those who have always wanted to play a Bard, but are pigeon holed into playing the only Bard spec which is a healer? What if they don't like healing? What if they aren't good at it, or are anxious about healing and therefore don't feel comfortable? At least a second DPS spec would facilitate those kinds of players.

What about our poor Teriz being forced to play a Tinker as DPS when he's always wanted to play as a Mech piloting tank?

I'll definitely agree dual spec is a good idea. I just can't get behind single spec classes from both a balancing perspective and possible player engagement perspective.

The easiest solution if single spec classes were to be a thing would be just to make them pure DPS I guess, but that would just feel underwhelming, wouldn't it?

In the case of the bard, I think it WOULD be a dps, just one with significant support and off healing. Not unlike a ret paladin or enhancement shaman.

One more involved idea would be to have one spec but the ability to do multiple roles in one spec. We had that with gladiator in WoD and for a long while we had that with Feral for druid (which included tanking). It should be possible to have two roles function with the same core gameplay (I'd say it is even easy if it's tank and melee dps).

[Northelim]

On top of all the other issues with these micro classes (art, balance, leveling, pvp, meta, etc) that others and myself have called out, do we really think they’d add another class with the DK initials? I mean… how many straws are needed to break this camels back?

The initials are not really an issue... the community can create new initials for them like DGK or DNK or simply call them Dragon tanks.

We have Warriors and Warlocks, both have the same 3 letters at start. All the warlocks go by Locks and Warriors simply War.

[Nymrohd]

No, the easiest solution would be for people to get out of their comfort zone. Take me, for example. In all my years in WoW, I was a DPS. Every MMO I tried, I was a DPS cause I was affraid of the responsibility. I also mained DPS at first in FFXIV, but when I was kinda bored with doing the same thing over again, i started leveling healers and I actually enjoyed them a lot. And while Ninja is still my main I like to do healing from time to time. The feeling of being in control of the battlefield is great.

I can see that happen with healing. NOT with tanking. The way WoW works these days, you will struggle to find a tanking spot in raids (tanks are usually officers, guilds would rather find someone in the guild to take over for a tank leaving than recruit one) outside PuGs and tanking M+ (heroic dungeons are dead, the queues can take forever and the rewards are non-existent) is extremely stressful with the demands of the community on tanks being pretty damn crazy (know every route, for each type of affix, know what every pack does, over ten dungeons and about 35-40 bosses).

[KainneAbsolute]

What if instead of borrowed power, Blizzard brings us new/thematic essences each expansion?

[Nymrohd]

On top of all the other issues with these micro classes (art, balance, leveling, pvp, meta, etc) that others and myself have called out, do we really think they’d add another class with the DK initials? I mean… how many straws are needed to break this camels back?

And at what point do we say : if they’re throwing this much stuff at us (even stuff never heard of before in lore), does that leave anything for the future?
4 new, full classes could literally carry the game into 2032 if released one every other expansion. Why do halfassed 1 spec versions (requiring the same amount of art as a full class) in one giant wave? What’s 12.0 going to have?

I still don't get what a Dragon knight is. The class does not exist in lore. Dragonsworn are all over the place in WoW but they are unique individuals who using existing classes. Why people want a class archetype that is barely established over the literally dozens of archetypes that are well established is beyond me. Not saying that they cannot create a Dragon Knight out of scratch and make it good; they created Pandaria! But I'd rather have any of the many archetypes that already exist and are unplayable.

[Catastrophy349]

I really hope we get Aspect/Dragon Power in 10.0. Personally, I would have preferred ONE power grind system in SL instead of 15 currencies/ways to be optimal.

[SniperCT]

A huge part of rpgs is choosing an archetype and playing with it. Warcraft has done an amazing job of establishing a truly staggering array of archetypes, especially some that are truly specific and tied to race. And then has made only some of them available. Doubt it is even a majority. People have been trying with transmog and toys to be able to play as archetypes they love for ages. Class skin threads are so popular on most WoW forums, as a possible way for people to be able to experience an archetype.

I totally get that. But I also think at some point you could reach a point where there are too many classes, and it becomes bloated. Then there's the balancing aspect, both in PvE and PvP.

And you have to start from scratch every time you roll a new class. FF14 cured me of my altitus lmao In wow I had one of almost every class at cap in Legion, plus some duplicates.

Now I look at my character select screen and it's over whelming (though I think changing the screen to let you page through left to right instead of scroll would help a lot)

I know me, I'll roll a new class just to try it. And if I like it that's another alt to sit there cluttering my screen. (I realize this is a Me Problem, lol)

[KainneAbsolute]

About classes: a new class in a while is cool. You explore new mechanics, new abilities, new lore.

I agree that a dragon class, tinker and bard can have 3+ specs:

Dragon class
- Tank: black dragonflight
- Healer: red/green dragonflight like Alex in Hots.
- Arcane dps caster: blue dragonflight
- Support chronomancer: bronze dragonflight

Tinker:
- Mech tank
- Ranged dps (turret, artillery)
- Alchemy healer

Perfomer:
- Lorewalker: music and inspiration support (Zereth Mortis music?)
- Dancer: high mobility melee dps (Not very wow)
- Painter: ranged dps/summoner (Not very wow)

Other missing themes is mail class, roguish ranged class (dual pistols/crossbows spec), battlemage/magicknight.

[Villager720]

The initials are not really an issue... the community can create new initials for them like DGK or DNK or simply call them Dragon tanks.

We have Warriors and Warlocks, both have the same 3 letters at start. All the warlocks go by Locks and Warriors simply War.

But why not just dragonsworn (which exists in lore..sort of)? There’s just too much stuff in the “leak” for micro classes that doesn’t make logical sense from a design perspective. You can make any random, non lore relevant class you want into just one spec, and you choose to make up one with an incredibly similar name to another class? You make Necromancers, wardens, dark rangers, and dragonsworn class skins but then make chronomancers and dragon knights actual classes?

I find it strains belief on so many fronts.