Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[SniperCT]

Oh I agree completely. Artifacts should have been permanent. Each expansion can give us a new one to work on themed to that expansion. Instead we get ugly ass weapons that look like vendor greens.

If not permanent, they could have rolled the concept into our base characters. Wouldn't need to raise the level cap ever again. (then they could make AP account wide and catching up alts becomes a lot easier.)

[Polybius]

Yeah the sheer amount of detail about the rest (way too much compared to 99% of the real leaks) and no mention of what the living world thing is about is suspicious.

I thought LivingWorld was just a namespace to group all revamp assets.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Honestly the Legion Class fantasy was such a success. At the end of the day one of the primary reason people play RPGs is to play fiction archetypes and to have a power fantasy and Legion combined both. It was a mistake to give up on class halls and a mistake to give up artifacts.

Well some of them worked.

Others (calling out you here Hunter) felt like they were there just because Blizz had to come up with something for them.

[Kiria]

Im all for the micro classes, it would be very similar to FFXIV then the only thing we are missing is being able to do multiple classes on 1 character

[Nymrohd]

The fact that there are so many people in the wow userbase who think like this is why the game will never be able to meaningful change it's severely flawed fundamentals.

Micoclasses solve huge ongoing and compounding issues with class design, which has made the addition of a class such a monumental task. They made the right call with Demon Hunter and only 2 specs, objectively, in every way possible it was a positive decision. Yet then, and even now to a hypothetical leak, the fanbase can only focus on numbers and feeling like they're ripped off. It's the same thing with the level squish all over again.

Even worse, their proposed response is "actually I hope instead it's just more specs for existing classes".

The game is just not nearly friendly enough for alts as it is. Make the game alt friendly, make it possible for me to pick a new archetype and just play it without spending 60 Euro or hours doing content I've done already and is not even remotely challenging so as to be interesting and then classes with one or two specs could be a solid idea to introduce the literally dozen of archetypes that exist in lore but not in game. Witch Doctors, Shadow Hunters, Dark Rangers, Apothecaries, Priestess of the Moon, Wardens, Tinkers, Necromancers, Bards, Spellblades, Runemasters, Apothecaries just off the top of my head. All would be better of being classes without specs or maybe just one of them. But as long as the game requires me to either pay a substantial amount or spend several days of boring game time just to be able to get to the part I actually will enjoy, I don't need new classes.

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Well some of them worked.

Others (calling out you here Hunter) felt like they were there just because Blizz had to come up with something for them.

Absolutely. Several were just completely uninspired.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Im all for the micro classes, it would be very similar to FFXIV then the only thing we are missing is being able to do multiple classes on 1 character

Kind of a big missing piece given "alt unfriendlyness" has been WoW's constant complaint since WoD.

Only way it works is if they take all that endgame stuff and make it fully account-wide.

[KayRule]

Can you please elaborate on why you think that both Tinker and Dragonknight would work better as one spec only each?

For the last several expansions, class design has been in a constant state of dissatisfaction. Every expansion is delivered with spec and class overhauls that still end with everyone upset. Specs didn't feel diverse enough, now they feel too diverse. Spell pruning removing iconic abilities, or locking them into one spec. Outside of a few exceptions, this has been a constant battle of design which every expansion ends with largely everyone unhappy. One of the only classes that doesn't have this problem is DH, because it's very focused and cleanly designed.

I would much rather have tightly designed single spec classes, or dual-spec classes, than stretching concepts out over 3 (or god forbid 4) specs. I'd much rather have a 1 spec class that feels uniquley like a class, than a 4th spec that is arbitrarily tied to 3 others.

[SniperCT]

Kind of a big missing piece given "alt unfriendlyness" has been WoW's constant complaint since WoD.

Only way it works is if they take all that endgame stuff and make it fully account-wide.

That would be amazing. Also tie in with my suggestion to lift ESO's champion point system. I don't even play ESO that frequently anymore but it's still one of the best parts of that game.

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For the last several expansions, class design has been in a constant state of dissatisfaction. Every expansion is delivered with spec and class overhauls that still end with everyone upset. Specs didn't feel diverse enough, now they feel too diverse. Spell pruning removing iconic abilities, or locking them into one spec. Outside of a few exceptions, this has been a constant battle of design which every expansion ends with largely everyone unhappy. One of the only classes that doesn't have this problem is DH, because it's very focused and cleanly designed.

I would much rather have tightly designed single spec classes, or dual-spec classes, than stretching concepts out over 3 (or god forbid 4) specs. I'd much rather have a 1 spec class that feels uniquley like a class, than a 4th spec that is arbitrarily tied to 3 others.

With a few exceptions, I've found I haven't really enjoyed any of the individual way the specs play since MoP. (and in some cases I haven't enjoyed a spec since Wrath, looking at you Disc Priest)

I don't know how they fix that, though.

[Polybius]

For the last several expansions, class design has been in a constant state of dissatisfaction. Every expansion is delivered with spec and class overhauls that still end with everyone upset. Specs didn't feel diverse enough, now they feel too diverse. Spell pruning removing iconic abilities, or locking them into one spec. Outside of a few exceptions, this has been a constant battle of design which every expansion ends with largely everyone unhappy. One of the only classes that doesn't have this problem is DH, because it's very focused and cleanly designed.

I would much rather have tightly designed single spec classes, or dual-spec classes, than stretching concepts out over 3 (or god forbid 4) specs. I'd much rather have a 1 spec class that feels uniquley like a class, than a 4th spec that is arbitrarily tied to 3 others.

Might be easier to balance if it's class skins, or new classes with specs adopting existing ones, reskinned specs basically.

[KayRule]

The game is just not nearly friendly enough for alts as it is. Make the game alt friendly, make it possible for me to pick a new archetype and just play it without spending 60 Euro or hours doing content I've done already and is not even remotely challenging so as to be interesting and then classes with one or two specs could be a solid idea to introduce the literally dozen of archetypes that exist in lore but not in game. Witch Doctors, Shadow Hunters, Dark Rangers, Apothecaries, Priestess of the Moon, Wardens, Tinkers, Necromancers, Bards, Spellblades, Runemasters, Apothecaries just off the top of my head. All would be better of being classes without specs or maybe just one of them. But as long as the game requires me to either pay a substantial amount or spend several days of boring game time just to be able to get to the part I actually will enjoy, I don't need new classes.

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Absolutely. Several were just completely uninspired.

Yeah agreed, 100%. The "Alt" design philosophy with WoW has been absolutely terrible. Too much content, such as races and classes, are mired down by the complete full commitment you need to make a new character to play and experience them. And that's literally by design. Playing content AGAIN but with a new class or new race, is seen as content in WoW designers eyes. I seldom play more than a single character, sometimes two, because of the amount of work required to maintain anymore than that. For a game that likes to prop up class and race archetypes, it does not in anyway make the concept of making a new character to try these out appealing.

[Santandame]

For the last several expansions, class design has been in a constant state of dissatisfaction. Every expansion is delivered with spec and class overhauls that still end with everyone upset. Specs didn't feel diverse enough, now they feel too diverse. Spell pruning removing iconic abilities, or locking them into one spec. Outside of a few exceptions, this has been a constant battle of design which every expansion ends with largely everyone unhappy. One of the only classes that doesn't have this problem is DH, because it's very focused and cleanly designed.

I would much rather have tightly designed single spec classes, or dual-spec classes, than stretching concepts out over 3 (or god forbid 4) specs. I'd much rather have a 1 spec class that feels uniquley like a class, than a 4th spec that is arbitrarily tied to 3 others.

I would have absolutely zero issue with dual spec classes.

Single spec classes are not the answer nor the solution though. As outlined in my previous edited post.

You make some fair and well thought out points. But I disagree entirely that single spec classes are a good idea. They are a huge problem waiting to happen

Dual spec is a happy medium.

[Kiria]

Kind of a big missing piece given "alt unfriendlyness" has been WoW's constant complaint since WoD.

Only way it works is if they take all that endgame stuff and make it fully account-wide.

Yeah I get that but at least in WoW you can level easily purely through Dungeon running or PvP, I either hope for account wide reps to start happening or they work on introducing the job system into WoW.

[Wangming]

For the last several expansions, class design has been in a constant state of dissatisfaction. Every expansion is delivered with spec and class overhauls that still end with everyone upset. Specs didn't feel diverse enough, now they feel too diverse. Spell pruning removing iconic abilities, or locking them into one spec. Outside of a few exceptions, this has been a constant battle of design which every expansion ends with largely everyone unhappy. One of the only classes that doesn't have this problem is DH, because it's very focused and cleanly designed.

I would much rather have tightly designed single spec classes, or dual-spec classes, than stretching concepts out over 3 (or god forbid 4) specs. I'd much rather have a 1 spec class that feels uniquley like a class, than a 4th spec that is arbitrarily tied to 3 others.

Hard agree. Honestly there are some specs that just feel redundat. Like, do we really need three dual wielding, combo point using, dps rogue?

[Tiradon]

Yeah I get that but at least in WoW you can level easily purely through Dungeon running or PvP, I either hope for account wide reps to start happening or they work on introducing the job system into WoW.

Yeah account wide reps would be amazing… Especially in a given game based so much around nostalgia & legacy

[Archmage Xaxxas]

Some of my musings the past year, thought I'd share in light of Dragonflight:


1. Vanilla - HvA/External Threats/Adventure Basics.

2. The Burning Crusade - Venture off-world to another realm.

3. Wrath of the Lich King - Visit the legendary/famed continent of Northrend.

4. Cataclysm - World Revamp, 'vanilla 2'

^^ Note this as a legend of the expansion categories, and a pattern that will reoccur.
MoP and WoD are combo-outliers.

Mists of Pandaria - Visit legendary/famed continent Pandaria, HvA/External Threats/Adventure basics

Warlords of Draenor - Venture off-world, mild themes of 'revamp' or 'vanilla' for Draenor and Adventure Basics.(and character models.)

Legion - Visit famed 'continent' The Broken Isles, Big Finish.


I find thinking of Legion as the intended end of the cycle helps here, since the plan was probably MoP -> Legion before WoD was thought up.

Under this pretense, we can look at BfA being the cycle beginning anew.
I want to clarify I understand Zandalar and Kul Tiras are famed continents, however, they are used to echo Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms respectively in 201X graphics fashion for new players.
Thus I consider BfA the 'vanilla' of this cycle, and it may add up why in a moment:


1. Battle for Azeroth - HvA/External Threats/Adventure Basics

2. Shadowlands - Venture off-world to another realm.

3. 10.0 - Visit the legendary/famed continent of "?????"

4. 11.0 - World Revamp 'vanilla 2(squared)'

Now read the wordings of points 1 through 4 on both 'cycles' and you'll see what I'm getting at.


Dragonflight being leaked kind of shows that 10.0 will -probably- be:
"3. Dragonflight - Visit the legenary/famed continent of The Dragon Isles."

and that lines up with hopes/wants/suspicions for a 20th Anniversary World Revamp, so yes a bias take.

[Blayze]

Four one-spec classes sounds unusual, and Blizzard don't really do unusual; we're far more likely to see every potential microclass or new class idea become essentially a glyph for an existing class or spec, if only because it's easier.

[KayRule]

I would have absolutely zero issue with dual spec classes.

Single spec classes are not the answer nor the solution though. As outlined in my previous edited post.

You make some fair and well thought out points. But I disagree entirely that single spec classes are a good idea. They are a huge problem waiting to happen

Dual spec is a happy medium.

I will concede, I don't objectively think it is a perfect solution. My response to them in the leak is that they are "bold". It is a "bold" attempt at taking a sledgehammer to a constantly growing problem - one that directly impacts the ability for us to get new classes and archetypes at a pace beyond a quarter of a decade apart.

It may not be correct, but as most criticisms I see seem to be a pedestrian "wait...number smaller..." response, I feel like some people are too focused on feeling like they're getting less content than to see the bigger picture.

[Kiria]

Four one-spec classes sounds unusual, and Blizzard don't really do unusual; we're far more likely to see every potential microclass or new class idea become essentially a glyph for an existing class or spec, if only because it's easier.

They can't get by on easier anymore, they need to impress the playerbase and entice lost ex addicts back.

[Santandame]

Hard agree. Honestly there are some specs that just feel redundat. Like, do we really need three dual wielding, combo point using, dps rogue?

No, we don't in respect of this. Assassination and Sub could be rolled into one spec/theme. Outlaw is fine as it is. A third spec for a Rogue could and would ideally be a tank based Rogue centered around evasion, or a Bard as a healer/dps hybrid.

Fire Mage isn't really necessary either as I feel like Destro Warlock fits the same theme and aesthetic. So for Mage instead of Fire, we could have Chronomancer as a healer, or a Blood Mage as a healer.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Yeah I get that but at least in WoW you can level easily purely through Dungeon running or PvP, I either hope for account wide reps to start happening or they work on introducing the job system into WoW.

Leveling is easy I'm more talking about yeah Reps. Also Campaign progress and AP grind progress.

A better way to get gear for alts by playing your main would be nice too. Like how in 14 you can do dungeons on DPS to get points to buy tank gear for your alt class.