Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Oh I think the Dragonflight leak is bogus as well. I am just saying that you can easily get to Silvermoon being a hostile questing area.
And yeah, I would have had the dictatorship happen slowly. Maybe the Dragons are presented as a threat in x.0 The Farstriders fail to contain it but the Shining Crusaders save the civilians and win the day. Then the Farstriders somehow fail against a minor scourge attack that destroys a small village in x.1 People lose trust in them. In x.1.5 we have Lor'themar ousted from the city by popular demand and replaced by Yrel or Liadrin. In x.2 we start adventuring in a hostile fascist Silvermoon and in x.3 it is the final raid of the xpac. Silvermoon proper gets a full revamp and turns friendly by x.3.5 while the raid happens in Quel'danas which gets blown up into the next xpac entry area.

That's fair enough. I could see that happening.

I honestly don't like the whole "Light bad" narrative Blizzard is going for, though. I love the opportunity for a bit more moral muddiness, but I've never felt it's satisfying enough to just say "yeah, this purely benevolent force that has always been nothing but purely benevolent? Yeah, a misanthropic, unpredictable lunatic who was nearly forced to be a normal, functioning person by it for the purpose of saving the universe and the descendants of a villainous faction who are possibly killing the planet with industrialization both say it tried to make them not do horrible things. They're evil!"

It feels somewhat superfluous in general, I'm not a fan of the whole idea as it's been presented. I do think Turalyon might allow for some nastier fellows to slip through the Alliance's oversight like a resurgent Neo-Scarlet Crusade or even Yrel's Lightbound, and I do think some of these elements of brainwashing and thought control could be used to make Turalyon's new rule a little more gray and interesting, but outright Villain Batting the Light (as well as almost everyone associated with it) seems unnecessary to me and also very much irreconcilable with all playable Draenei of any stripe, as well as Paladins and Priests.

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I agree with most of the above, you’ve made a compelling case against that leak I must admit

I am sorry if I'm coming off a somewhat of a "humbug" guy here, I do have to say—I'm just really not buying it at all and I'm confused about the whole hype around this one. I'm not trying to be a prick, but it's all just too hard to believe for me.

[Revamp Man]

1. Wardens have never used holy magic, and have only ever used very minimal arcane magic (blink).
2. Why are Wardens a Demon Hunter skin? They have nothing in common with them other than "agile edgy Elves".
3. Wardens already share several abilities with Rogues, so why not just make them a class skin for Rogues? In fact, why would we even need a class skin for this when you can functionally experience a Warden minus Avatar of Vengeance if you just gave Rogues a transmog with a weapon?
4. Let's assume that the Avatar of Vengeance takes care of metamorphosis. How are the heavily-armored, very much wingless Wardens going to double-jump or glide? Their capes?

just this here is where i kinda checked out in the leak itself

talks about class skins but changing damage type is actually a mechanical thing just like the taming of undead

[Wangming]

I am sorry if I'm coming off a somewhat of a "humbug" guy here, I do have to say—I'm just really not buying it at all and I'm confused about the whole hype around this one. I'm not trying to be a prick, but it's all just too hard to believe for me.

To be fair nobody really took it seriously till the Dalaran stuff was found on the PTR. Now it hast to be discussed at least. Especially since there isn't much else to do. We can talk about Alexsztraza's new outfit or her new spear. That's pretty much it. But the leak can open up a lot of discussion.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

just this here is where i kinda checked out in the leak itself

talks about class skins but changing damage type is actually a mechanical thing just like the taming of undead

I actually think taming Undead and changing damage type are so minimal in modern WoW that I could 100% believe that as a basis for a class skin. Damage type means practically nothing and would be something that could be changed no problemo. My concern is just that none of this makes sense for Wardens.

[Fahrad Wagner]

That's fair enough. I could see that happening.

I honestly don't like the whole "Light bad" narrative Blizzard is going for, though. I love the opportunity for a bit more moral muddiness, but I've never felt it's satisfying enough to just say "yeah, this purely benevolent force that has always been nothing but purely benevolent? Yeah, a misanthropic, unpredictable lunatic who was nearly forced to be a normal, functioning person by it for the purpose of saving the universe and the descendants of a villainous faction who are possibly killing the planet with industrialization both say it tried to make them not do horrible things. They're evil!"

It feels somewhat superfluous in general, I'm not a fan of the whole idea as it's been presented. I do think Turalyon might allow for some nastier fellows to slip through the Alliance's oversight like a resurgent Neo-Scarlet Crusade or even Yrel's Lightbound, and I do think some of these elements of brainwashing and thought control could be used to make Turalyon's new rule a little more gray and interesting, but outright Villain Batting the Light (as well as almost everyone associated with it) seems unnecessary to me and also very much irreconcilable with all playable Draenei of any stripe, as well as Paladins and Priests.

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I am sorry if I'm coming off a somewhat of a "humbug" guy here, I do have to say—I'm just really not buying it at all and I'm confused about the whole hype around this one. I'm not trying to be a prick, but it's all just too hard to believe for me.

Oh no worries friend, you’re entitled to your opinion especially one that is as well articulated as yours! I’m still on board for that leak, but at this point it’s more wishful thinking

[AOL Instant Messenger]

To be fair nobody really took it seriously till the Dalaran stuff was found on the PTR. Now it hast to be discussed at least. Especially since there isn't much else to do. We can talk about Alexsztraza's new outfit or her new spear. That's pretty much it. But the leak can open up a lot of discussion.

Didn't know there was something to do with Dalaran on the PTR. I could definitely imagine that being a new hub in the case of a Lordaeron-based (or Northern Eastern Kingdoms-based) expansion, I confess, even if I find using the same hub three times a little iffy.

[Soulwind]

Right off the bat, we know that Blizzard has held that Cataclysm's zone design was a mistake precisely because the zones were totally disconnected. This directly contradicts developer statements.

I agree with most of your post, and I even agree with the idea behind this too, since I also believe disconnected zones have to be done really well to work, and should be avoided when possible.

But... Shadowlands is a thing, which means Blizzard themselves forgot their own lesson and who knows if they've relearned it.

[Nymrohd]

That's fair enough. I could see that happening.

I honestly don't like the whole "Light bad" narrative Blizzard is going for, though. I love the opportunity for a bit more moral muddiness, but I've never felt it's satisfying enough to just say "yeah, this purely benevolent force that has always been nothing but purely benevolent? Yeah, a misanthropic, unpredictable lunatic who was nearly forced to be a normal, functioning person by it for the purpose of saving the universe and the descendants of a villainous faction who are possibly killing the planet with industrialization both say it tried to make them not do horrible things. They're evil!"

It feels somewhat superfluous in general, I'm not a fan of the whole idea as it's been presented. I do think Turalyon might allow for some nastier fellows to slip through the Alliance's oversight like a resurgent Neo-Scarlet Crusade or even Yrel's Lightbound, and I do think some of these elements of brainwashing and thought control could be used to make Turalyon's new rule a little more gray and interesting, but outright Villain Batting the Light (as well as almost everyone associated with it) seems unnecessary to me and also very much irreconcilable with all playable Draenei of any stripe, as well as Paladins and Priests.

Have to say, I am mostly playing devil's advocate. I do not want the Light to go evil. I could go with a faction in the Light going ultra lawful but only if we get another faction to also show up and helps us oppose them.

One way I could see the Light become an antagonist is this. The Shining Crusade arrives on Azeroth. They help us resolve some major issues. Then at some point Yrel calls the faction leaders to a conclave. There the Crusade presents ample evidence that Azeroth has been forever tainted by the Void. When she wakes up, she will be a force of destruction that will doom the universe and our only option is to seek refuge elsewhere destroy our planet now before it is too late for the cosmos.
Now that would divide the entire planet. Do we trust her? Even if we do believe that Azeroth is tainted, how many think it can still be saved?

[Revamp Man]

I actually think taming Undead and changing damage type are so minimal in modern WoW that I could 100% believe that as a basis for a class skin. Damage type means practically nothing and would be something that could be changed no problemo. My concern is just that none of this makes sense for Wardens.

with mobs and racials and buffs that deal with X school of damage it would be a bit awkward with things

but yeah wardens are like rogues but with cooler weapons

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Oh no worries friend, you’re entitled to your opinion especially one that is as well articulated as yours! I’m still on board for that leak, but at this point it’s more wishful thinking

I get you. I think it's easy to see why some people would want it, too—the idea of getting the classes you want with no opportunity cost is great. Up until the issues that inevitably come up later come into play, the leak essentially says "all the classes everybody wants? They're all true!" No disappointment for anybody until you think about the long-term repercussions and the actual gameplay.

It's definitely pretty easy to see where people would want some things to come into play—it really is, in about every way, the perfect compilation of everything everyone wants in a leak, so it's obviously very attractive. I don't buy it, but I see why people want it.

[Fahrad Wagner]

Have to say, I am mostly playing devil's advocate. I do not want the Light to go evil. I could go with a faction in the Light going ultra lawful but only if we get another faction to also show up and helps us oppose them.

One way I could see the Light become an antagonist is this. The Shining Crusade arrives on Azeroth. They help us resolve some major issues. Then at some point Yrel calls the faction leaders to a conclave. There the Crusade presents ample evidence that Azeroth has been forever tainted by the Void. When she wakes up, she will be a force of destruction that will doom the universe and our only option is to seek refuge elsewhere destroy our planet now before it is too late for the cosmos.
Now that would divide the entire planet. Do we trust her? Even if we do believe that Azeroth is tainted, how many think it can still be saved?

You have better ideas than the writing team. Although I’m not sure Yrel would be welcomed by the Horde after the Mag’har « incident ».

[Revamp Man]

To be fair nobody really took it seriously till the Dalaran stuff was found on the PTR. Now it hast to be discussed at least. Especially since there isn't much else to do. We can talk about Alexsztraza's new outfit or her new spear. That's pretty much it. But the leak can open up a lot of discussion.

new dalaran textures can be very interesting especially if dadgar and kalecgos are big players

im not saying hub but possibly part of the intro scenario or a dungeon

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Have to say, I am mostly playing devil's advocate. I do not want the Light to go evil. I could go with a faction in the Light going ultra lawful but only if we get another faction to also show up and helps us oppose them.

One way I could see the Light become an antagonist is this. The Shining Crusade arrives on Azeroth. They help us resolve some major issues. Then at some point Yrel calls the faction leaders to a conclave. There the Crusade presents ample evidence that Azeroth has been forever tainted by the Void. When she wakes up, she will be a force of destruction that will doom the universe and our only option is to seek refuge elsewhere destroy our planet now before it is too late for the cosmos.
Now that would divide the entire planet. Do we trust her? Even if we do believe that Azeroth is tainted, how many think it can still be saved?

That would make for a very interesting storyline—I can see what you mean by that, and it does give a good reason for there to be Light-based antagonists other than "lol they brainwashed Illidan". I do really like that take, and I'm far from averse to an Azerothian Holy War between all the Light-worshippers with their own takes on how to properly follow the Light or which is the real approach—maybe even a Xe'raite-A'dalite Holy War. Perhaps the Naaru will have a schism and their followers end up following their respective interpretations? With the new philosophy on the Cosmic Forces, I could see this happening if the Naaru are retconned from being Angel-equivalents to just being Light-based aliens, which leaves room for infighting.

[Sondrelk]

Hey off-topic in regards to what I've quoted.. I saw you mention something quite a few pages back regarding the shield malganis drops being this expansions suramar cloak. What is the cloak youre referring to so I can look at it? Just curious

The world boss in 6.2 drops a cloak called the Suramar something cloak.

[Nymrohd]

You have better ideas than the writing team. Although I’m not sure Yrel would be welcomed by the Horde after the Mag’har « incident ».

She would not be welcomed by the Mag'har. The Blood Elves would not mind her. Neither would the Tauren. The Nightborne would just go with the Blood Elves for the most part. The trolls would not care as long as she is of use to everyone. And yeah Geyarah would be screaming that Yrel is a genocidal monster (while her people use dark magic to torture souls for the giggles) while Yrel calmly rebuffs her and points to the facts.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

You have better ideas than the writing team. Although I’m not sure Yrel would be welcomed by the Horde after the Mag’har « incident ».

Admittedly, that could just foster more conflict intrafaction—the Mag'har insist that they don't trust Yrel and lead the charge against the Lightbound, whereas the Blood Elves or at least the Blood Knights are sympathetic to the Lightbound and stand by them. This could create some intrafaction conflict that would be very interesting and push the plot forward.

[Baedril]

I actually think taming Undead and changing damage type are so minimal in modern WoW that I could 100% believe that as a basis for a class skin. Damage type means practically nothing and would be something that could be changed no problemo. My concern is just that none of this makes sense for Wardens.

Taming undead did actually have some PvP impact, with certain CC working/not working on undead. It's why hunters who try and push the absolute limit out of their class will have both a normal raptor(Or other cunning mortal strike pet) and an undead raptor and then switch them out depending on what they're facing, to minimize the amount of possible crowd control on their pet.

Demon Hunters suddenly doing holy damage could also have a big impact, with Blinding Light from Paladins not breaking on holy damage, that'd be an extra stun to try and kill in whilst being on a completely different diminishing return. Though I don't think that necessarily disproves the leak or the possibility of damage types changing, the effects of it aren't nil.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Taming undead did actually have some PvP impact, with certain CC working/not working on undead. It's why hunters who try and push the absolute limit out of their class will have both a normal raptor(Or other cunning mortal strike pet) and an undead raptor and then switch them out depending on what they're facing, to minimize the amount of possible crowd control on their pet.

Demon Hunters suddenly doing holy damage could also have a big deal, with Blinding Light from Paladins not breaking on holy damage, that'd be an extra stun to try and kill in whilst being on a completely different diminishing return. Though I don't think that necessarily disproves the leak or the possibility of damage types changing, the effects of it aren't nil.

That's a fairly good point—I think that the Undead thing has already been done, though, and the problems seem minimal, albeit not nonexistent.

I definitely think that the Warden thing, aside from being lore-unfriendly, could also be an issue because of Blinding Light. Nevertheless, I think the differences aren't too crippling and I could 100% see class skins dealing different damage types being a thing, especially since it would give a strong sense of difference with minimal resource use.

[Nymrohd]

Admittedly, that could just foster more conflict intrafaction—the Mag'har insist that they don't trust Yrel and lead the charge against the Lightbound, whereas the Blood Elves or at least the Blood Knights are sympathetic to the Lightbound and stand by them. This could create some intrafaction conflict that would be very interesting and push the plot forward.

Heck same thing could happen in the Alliance. Tyrande consults Elune and disagrees. Meanwhile Yrel is aggressively evangelizing the Light across Azeroth; no forced conversions but sudden tension, possibly even among the Kaldorei and the some people among the Alliance who embrace the Light fanatically. You'd have Velen try to mediate and preach for acceptance among the Light users only to be killed in a riot. And ofc the Crusade could start targeting the Void Elves. Turalyon tries to find a compromise but things turn violent. Maybe Arator gets killed as well. Really it's not that hard to make a story with no clear villain. It happens in real life EVERY DAY.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Heck same thing could happen in the Alliance. Tyrande consults Elune and disagrees. Meanwhile Yrel is aggressively evangelizing the Light across Azeroth; no forced conversions but sudden tension, possibly even among the Kaldorei and the some people among the Alliance who embrace the Light fanatically. You'd have Velen try to mediate and preach for acceptance among the Light users only to be killed in a riot. And ofc the Crusade could start targeting the Void Elves. Turalyon tries to find a compromise but things turn violent. Maybe Arator gets killed as well. Really it's not that hard to make a story with no clear villain. It happens in real life EVERY DAY.

Indeed—unfortunately, WoW is a medium where you have to get 24 guys together to go kill all the baddies with minimal thought or freedom of choice. This would be very good, but I don't know if Blizzard would want to do something so morally-gray and which would have to be so long-term, especially since players would be pretty much cheated out of the real storyline experience if they couldn't pick a side to some extent and for some characters it would be nonsensical if they were forced to pick one or the other.