1. #36081
    I am Murloc! Wangming's Avatar
    5+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Not Azeroth
    Posts
    5,389
    Quote Originally Posted by Santandame View Post
    But that has no bearing on WoW PvP and how these micro classes will effect PvP.

    You have a Bard, which is an alleged healing spec. But it is designed around solo levelling due to being a single spec class. So it's going to have a better than average damage kit.

    That spec is going to be insanely broken in PvP. Why bring any other healer or any other damage dealer when you can get one or two classes that has both the full healing kit, as well as better than average damage dealing kit?

    Every comp will have a Bard and Chronomancer. Possibly even double. Both classes will also be an absolute nightmare to go up against.

    This is just one issue for one aspect of the gsme regarding these micro classes. They pose an issue in every aspect of the game. Of which have all been raised and illustrated in this thread over the past 24 hours.

    The people for these micro classes aren't thinking of the bigger picture. They're looking from it with the perspective of "wow four new classes" and not in regards to the overall health of the game.

    Single spec classes are not the answer. Dual spec classes can work yes, but single spec is a disaster waiting to happen.
    You aren't listening. They don't have better than average damage dealing kits. Healers suck at damage. They survive in solo play because they can stay alive in fights. despite their lack of health or proper damage.

  2. #36082
    There are so many better options for these micro classes as they've been presented.

    Just make all four dual spec:

    Dragon Knight - Tank/Melee Dps (Battlemagw)
    Tinker - Tank/Ranged DPS
    Chronomancer - Healer/Ranged DPS
    Bard - Healer/Ranged OR Melee DPS

    Or alternatively, Tinker can easily be a three spec class. Dragon Knight/Dragonsworn can easily be a four spec class. Bard can be a fourth spec for Rogues or Monks. Chronomancer can be a fourth spec for Mage

    I can't see any scenario where single spec classes are a good idea.

  3. #36083
    I am Murloc! Wangming's Avatar
    5+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Not Azeroth
    Posts
    5,389
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    You are aware that Blizzard already balances PvP intependend from PvE, right? They can just nerf Bard and Chronomancers dmg output in (instanced) pvp content if that would be an issue.
    Yeah and that's another thing.

  4. #36084
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    You aren't listening. They don't have better than average damage dealing kits. Healers suck at damage. They survive in solo play because they can stay alive in fights. despite their lack of health or proper damage.
    You're talking about Final Fantasy. I'm talking about WoW.

    The point was in regards to Bards and Chronomancers in both levelling and solo content.

    Every Healer has the choice to swap to a damage spec to make these aspects of the game easier. Bard and Chronomancer as they are presented do not.

    The solution presented by some is to give them a better than average damage dealing kit for this purpose, which would make them insanely broken in PvP as I've outlined.

    I'm not sure what your points about the roles in Final Fantasy PvP mean in reflection of what I'm saying?

  5. #36085
    I am Murloc! Wangming's Avatar
    5+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Not Azeroth
    Posts
    5,389
    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    True, but Galakrond makes more sense threading together everything we've seen so far. They're setting the pretext for Scourge in Northrend and reanimation. Lordaeron's relevance will likely be tied to Watcher Tyr who is responsible for Galakrond.

    I think if Chromatus was going to be used heavily they would of at least mentioned him in BfA.
    I guess. Unless Galakrond is just a means to an end and not the goal itself.

    Like:
    1. Cultists reanimate Galakrond.
    2. Aspects come in to take him down.
    3. Aspects fail.
    4. Evil dragon (Merithra/Wrathion...etc) convinces the aspects to find asspull macguffin on the Dragon Isles to help kill Galakrond.
    5. Evil dragon takes asspull macguffin.
    6. *Palpatine voice* UUUNLIIMITED POWAAAA

  6. #36086
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    You are aware that Blizzard already balances PvP intependend from PvE, right? They can just nerf Bard and Chronomancers dmg output in (instanced) pvp content if that would be an issue.
    This remind me so much of what people said when disc got reworked. How every raid will have 5 disc priests and every arena comp will have one because you do damage an heal at the same time.
    Most of us don't have a clue how balancing works and we should not pretent we do.

  7. #36087
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    You are aware that Blizzard already balances PvP intependend from PvE, right? They can just nerf Bard and Chronomancers dmg output in (instanced) pvp content if that would be an issue.
    It will be an issue, but you make a fair point. You've negated one point out of countless in regards to why single spec classes are still a bad idea though.

    What about outside of PvP? When every Mythic+ run demands a Bard or Chronomancer because of their much higher damage output than the other healing specs?

    And as already mentioned countless times in this thread - friends playing together who want to play as a Bard and Chronomancer respectively. Unless the content they're doing requires more than two healers they are screwed and can't play that content together. What's your solution in regards to them? Reroll?

  8. #36088
    I am Murloc! Wangming's Avatar
    5+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Not Azeroth
    Posts
    5,389
    Quote Originally Posted by Santandame View Post
    You're talking about Final Fantasy. I'm talking about WoW.

    The point was in regards to Bards and Chronomancers in both levelling and solo content.

    Every Healer has the choice to swap to a damage spec to make these aspects of the game easier. Bard and Chronomancer as they are presented do not.

    The solution presented by some is to give them a better than average damage dealing kit for this purpose, which would make them insanely broken in PvP as I've outlined.

    I'm not sure what your points about the roles in Final Fantasy PvP mean in reflection of what I'm saying?
    Well Blizzard will not use that solution. Instead the classes will have one spec that is more focused to what the class really is about and not worry about "How are we going to stretch this concept to two more specs?


    The reason I'm using Final Fantasy PvP cause that's what I'm most familiar with when it comes to PvP in one spec MMOs.

  9. #36089
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    I guess. Unless Galakrond is just a means to an end and not the goal itself.

    Like:
    1. Cultists reanimate Galakrond.
    2. Aspects come in to take him down.
    3. Aspects fail.
    4. Evil dragon (Merithra/Wrathion...etc) convinces the aspects to find asspull macguffin on the Dragon Isles to help kill Galakrond.
    5. Evil dragon takes asspull macguffin.
    6. *Palpatine voice* UUUNLIIMITED POWAAAA
    I don't see them rehashing the Dragon Soul story

    I think IF Galakrond becomes reanimated it would be more him being used as a weapon by some other evil character. Galakronds nature to transform based on magic he consumes would make for perfect opportunity for some cosmic forces war on Azeroth.

  10. #36090
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    Well Blizzard will not use that solution. Instead the classes will have one spec that is more focused to what the class really is about and not worry about "How are we going to stretch this concept to two more specs?


    The reason I'm using Final Fantasy PvP cause that's what I'm most familiar with when it comes to PvP in one spec MMOs.
    Yes but why is that a good idea? Several people have listed several reasons why single spec classes won't work.

    The one, and literally only one pro, does not outweigh the many cons.

  11. #36091
    I am Murloc! Wangming's Avatar
    5+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Not Azeroth
    Posts
    5,389
    Quote Originally Posted by Santandame View Post

    And as already mentioned countless times in this thread - friends playing together who want to play as a Bard and Chronomancer respectively. Unless the content they're doing requires more than two healers they are screwed and can't play that content together. What's your solution in regards to them? Reroll?

    Again I'm going to annoy you with FFXIV trivia. There, the usual light party is two dps, one healer, and a tank. A full party is a two tanks, two healers and four dps. But that is only for matchmaking. If you go in with a premade party you are not forced into this composition. You can go in as 8 dps and go wild. Blizz can just copy this if needs be.

    Also this all assumes that these mini classes will be literally smaller classes we pick at level 1. What if they are not? What if they are the new endgame progression system?

  12. #36092
    I am Murloc! Wangming's Avatar
    5+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Not Azeroth
    Posts
    5,389
    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    I don't see them rehashing the Dragon Soul story

    I think IF Galakrond becomes reanimated it would be more him being used as a weapon by some other evil character. Galakronds nature to transform based on magic he consumes would make for perfect opportunity for some cosmic forces war on Azeroth.
    That's literally the opposite of what players want right now.

  13. #36093
    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    I don't see them rehashing the Dragon Soul story

    I think IF Galakrond becomes reanimated it would be more him being used as a weapon by some other evil character. Galakronds nature to transform based on magic he consumes would make for perfect opportunity for some cosmic forces war on Azeroth.
    The cool thing is they can use a revived galakrond to solidify a new team of dragon aspects

    Alex is the only one of the original aspects left and each other flight has new leaders (let’s face it nozdormu is gone long live chromie) and having them face the same enemy that led to the creation of the Aspects is a cool way to symbolize passing the torch

  14. #36094
    I am Murloc! Wangming's Avatar
    5+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Not Azeroth
    Posts
    5,389
    Quote Originally Posted by musicallittle1 View Post
    I think single spec classes would be obnoxious to play, and it's not like you can change your class if you hate it. If it gets hit with a nerf-bat one patch you won't have the option of switching specs and staying on the same character. That character would just suck now.
    Which again, would be solved if these were endgame progression choices. Like a polished path of the titans. They would end up being switchable. If not at release at least two major patches later so that Blizz can say "They listen to teh playerz".

  15. #36095
    Scarab Lord ercarp's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Suramar
    Posts
    4,919
    One of the main reasons I don't believe in the written Dragonflight leak is the mention of a "Dragonsworn" skin for SHAMANS (???). You can literally go on Wowpedia and do a quick Ctrl + F for "dragon" on the article for Shamans, or vice versa for the article for Dragonsworn or Dragon, and you'll find there's no link between the two. Shamans have had nothing to do with dragons, ever.

    Not a single Shaman has ever become Dragonsworn as far as we know. The Dragonsworn we do know of have mostly been night elves (which can't even play shamans, kek).

    And sure, you could say "well, that part of the leak is just fake information to muddy the waters!" but when you do this you're basically willfully ignoring the parts that make no sense so you can cherry-pick the parts that you like and make the leak seem more valid than it really is.

    If people want to believe this leak, you do you, I have no problem with that. But I will deny this leak's validity to the bitter end.

  16. #36096
    Quote Originally Posted by Santandame View Post
    The solution presented by some is to give them a better than average damage dealing kit for this purpose, which would make them insanely broken in PvP as I've outlined.

    I'm not sure what your points about the roles in Final Fantasy PvP mean in reflection of what I'm saying?
    Also insanely broken in M+. You can fix the PvP issue by tuning differently, they do it a lot. But the M+ issue? The meta tanks and healers are almost always the ones who can do the most damage.

  17. #36097
    Quote Originally Posted by ercarp View Post
    If people want to believe this leak, you do you, I have no problem with that. But I will deny this leak's validity to the bitter end.
    I think most of us discussing the leak are super skeptical about it anyway, but it's what we have, we're excited to find out about 10.0, and it's fun to speculate about how it could be made to work while we wait to find out more :P

  18. #36098
    Quote Originally Posted by ercarp View Post
    One of the main reasons I don't believe in the written Dragonflight leak is the mention of a "Dragonsworn" skin for SHAMANS (???). You can literally go on Wowpedia and do a quick Ctrl + F for "dragon" on the article for Shamans, or vice versa for the article for Dragonsworn or Dragon, and you'll find there's no link between the two. Shamans have had nothing to do with dragons, ever.

    Not a single Shaman has ever become Dragonsworn as far as we know. The Dragonsworn we do know of have mostly been night elves (which can't even play shamans, kek).

    And sure, you could say "well, that part of the leak is just fake information to muddy the waters!" but when you do this you're basically willfully ignoring the parts that make no sense so you can cherry-pick the parts that you like and make the leak seem more valid than it really is.

    If people want to believe this leak, you do you, I have no problem with that. But I will deny this leak's validity to the bitter end.
    Because there is no precedent does not mean they can’t come up with it. After all, Thrall was a shaman who has worked closely with dragons, and dragons are descended from proto-dragons which themselves come from Elementals.

    That being said, Dragonsworn would definitely not my first class skin idea for Shamans… nor the one I’d want most!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rae888 View Post
    I think most of us discussing the leak are super skeptical about it anyway, but it's what we have, we're excited to find out about 10.0, and it's fun to speculate about how it could be made to work while we wait to find out more :P
    Of course, and we need to remain skeptical as most of these leaks are utter fakes. I’m just playing devil’s advocate here and see how the information in that leak (which I like a lot) could work

  19. #36099
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    Which again, would be solved if these were endgame progression choices. Like a polished path of the titans. They would end up being switchable. If not at release at least two major patches later so that Blizz can say "They listen to teh playerz".
    So really the whole idea of micro-classes only really works if the entire system surrounding classes as a whole gets changed to allow it?
    That doesn't really strike me as a great idea if you have to bank on swapping around much of the game to just about make an idea viable.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  20. #36100
    I am Murloc! Wangming's Avatar
    5+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Not Azeroth
    Posts
    5,389
    Quote Originally Posted by musicallittle1 View Post
    They wouldn't be able to be full classes. Devs have said it will never be possible to switch a character's class because of prior coding issues (including but not limited to exclusive quests and class halls).
    Well, maybe they don't have to be.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •