Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Wangming]

There is no MoP or Legion classic. They need to stop reinventing the wheel and go back to what worked.

Even Legion was 7 years ago, fam. And MoP is 10 years old. As Garrosh told Gul'dan, times change. Remember back when WoW was released the main draw was that it was much more casual than EverQuest or even Final Fantasy XI cause you didn't lose XP or even a level when you died for example and all other crap that was considered normal back then. Now it is WoW that's the casual unfriendly MMO clinging to life from the past era.

[Lady Atia]

Didn’t the Primus square off against Helya, and take a hot minute to wrap it up?

I’m sorry but Sargeras wouldn’t need a moment to subdue Helya.

Also, Argus, fledgling Titan, took some of the most powerful weapons in history + Titan Pantheon aid to defeat.
The Jailer just lost to the murder hobos.

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I don’t think @Boubouille ever leaked something that wasn’t already floating around.

We just killed the spirit of Argus with the help of 2 Kyrians and a Broker. And Helya was probably infused by the power of the Maw, similiar to Sylvanas.

[Lahis]

They would have to do something to support an entirely new class there. Imagine a new player trying to do Legion with the new class, no weapons anywhere & relics you can't use. Also you can't do the overall story because its done through order halls.

Add few weapons to quest rewards and give orderless new classes a scouting map on Dalaran and they're all done.

[Luck4]

I think it's inevitable, which maybe makes me partially put some faith in the microclass leak, because adding several new classes in one expansion seems like something they would do to try to bring back many players. All I really want is a brand new class with Legion/Mop gameplay and the dragon isles as the continent and I will be satisfied.

Yeah, the leaks are promising, and we desperately need either a new class, micro-class, or class skins, so let's hope some of it will be officialized on April 19th.

[Raetary]

It's very much a lighting issue.
The logo is the same color as the border around the key art, which is absolutely grey.
yet it also has a green tinge.

Just like the whole image has a green tinge:
https://i.imgur.com/KSZjCvx.png
https://i.imgur.com/5Mjkcz6.png

[Nymrohd]

I hope so too. Legion made me fall in love with WoW again and I remember being so blinded by how good it was that I genuinely thought there was no way that BfA could suck. "Surely Blizzard had learned their lesson and every expansion from now on was going to be a solid 10/10!" That was my thinking at the time, but oh man... how wrong I was.

Part of me hoped Shadowlands was going to be the Legion-style redemption/comeback expansion, but somehow it turned out EVEN WORSE.

Here is the thing. BfA did not need the same type of "redemption" that WoD needed. WoD simply had no content worth doing other than raiding. The systems it had, limited though they were, were solid. The easy excuse is that the Garrison rewards were miscalculated and Garrison was too efficient. While that is partly true, the problem was not that the Garrison was too rewarding, it was that everything else was not rewarding at all, especially after MoP (where Valor was extremely rewarding and you could get Valor cap doing pretty much anything).

BfA had exceptional content. The world was brilliant, great leveling zones that looked beautiful and were fairly immersive, many large dungeons, decent raids (I'd say Uldir and Naz'jatar were not up to par but Dazar'alor and Ny'alotha were great raids for me). Post launch content was not at all bad. 8.1 added the best world pvp system wow has EVER had. Zone assaults had ample world pvp going on and you could easily reach conquest cap which was extremely rewarding for casual pvp. 8.2 added two zones with solid systems (and even more world pvp in Nazjatar) plus a Megadungeon. Warfronts were also rewarding (high ilvl loot tied to some of the best looking mogs in the game). 8.3 added challenging solo content with solid rewards in both cosmetics and gear.

The problem was systems. BfA had three different max level progressions Azerite gear was trash, worse than Covenants. Even after it was improved in 8.1 I'd still consider it the worst system we have had of its kind. Essences on the other hand were the best max level progression system we have had, full of flavor but without completely reworking how your class functions and without the many issues Artifacts had that took a fair while to fix. Corruption is a mix bag. It's probably the most fun system in that it was stupid OP which was not that bad since it was only active at the end of the xpac; could still have been a bit better tuned.
Warfronts I insist could have been amazing if a) they tuned them far more aggressively and made Heroic Warfronts actually on the level of Heroic raids b) gave you a reason to do them more often than once every 20 days. And yeah, they could be tuned.

And then there is the story.

So I don't know what the comeback was supposed to be. BfA did not lack content (unlike SL). BfA had bad systems because they were too many and most were poorly designed. But that's not something that is fixed with more work and more resources; it's fixed with better work (and probably less resources since you don't need to keep fiddling or trying to replace mid-xpac). The story needed to be better but did it need more work? BfA had an insane amount of cinematics and a heavy investment in the story with a wide range of active players. We did not need MORE story, just better story.
Really the only thing in BfA that needed a redemption as far as efforts and resources involved was Warfronts and Island expeditions. Islands were just a bad design fit. I insist that if they were instead a place to gather cosmetics that could be done solo without a timer over your head, people would have spend an insane amount of time there and do it willingly. Great cosmetic rewards, varied environments, mobs and activities. Instead we got Choreghast, a completely repetitive experience with very limited environments and mobs. Warfronts I also insist had amazing potential. I still had fun, especially in Arathi. Actually playing their system (collecting resources, getting buffs and troops) was very rewarding. You just had no reason to do it because of how weak the tuning was. And Warfronts could have been used without a faction war storyline element. Like, we could have had Covenants assaults on the Maw be a form of Warfront were you gathered anima and souls, recruited troops from your own Covenant (with each player having access to their own troops) etc. But those are minor.

SL did not need to be a comeback. It's just needed to not suck. And it sucked.

[Raetary]

We just killed the spirit of Argus with the help of 2 Kyrians and a Broker. And Helya was probably infused by the power of the Maw, similiar to Sylvanas.

We killed an echo of argus, a tiny fragment of him.

Argus himself KILLED us, to remind you.

[Niwes]

No expansion is perfect of course, and I had honestly completely forgot about 7.2 and the Netherlight Crucible because I wasn't much of a fan of those either. Tomb of Sargeras ended up being a really good raid, but the open world content of 7.2 was pretty bad and initially I hated Cathedral of Eternal Night with a passion (although later it became one of my favorites once they nerfed it a bit and I figured out how to make better pulls lol).



Argus (the area, not the boss) was great, especially Mac'Aree Eredath. The two other zones were kind of a pain to traverse, but I ended up liking them regardless. As for the raid boss, I guess I'd say I'm indifferent? I was expecting to fight Sargeras at the end of the expansion but the ending cinematic made up for it imo. But yeah, Argus felt like he kind of came out of left field. Mechanically the fight was cool though.



Illidan was great, I never understood the hate. Yeah, he had some cheesy, edgy lines but I don't really care because Liam O'Brien's voice acting sold them completely.



Big agree on all of these. Mission Table should have been retired a long time ago but Blizzard, for whatever reason, insists on having their little Facebook minigame in the game even though I don't know anyone who likes it. SL made it even worse imo.


More or less, lol. I mean, the bad parts of Legion would basically be the best parts of an expansion like SL. Legion was packed so full of everything that it was easier to forgive the areas that weren't exactly glittering with gold.

yep, agree to everything you say here.

[SniperCT]

But what is the missing link? Why does Blizzard suck ass at figuring out the formula to Legion's success? Because BfA and SL were not it. Is it Artifact Weapons? A new class? A steady patch cycle? Or lore that actually mattered? Could be all of them, could be something completely different.

All of the above. Artifacts were cool and could have been expanded upon. The patch cycle was near perfect! Steady content, wasn't too close, wasn't too far apart. Generally really well planned.

And the lore actually mattering, actually feeling like Warcraft, actually being decently well written ....

It hit every thing right. Like MoP and Wrath were both good for all of that except the patch cycle, honestly, and I felt like with Legion they got the patch cycle right, and the actual content itself was decent to good for the patches.

BFA started strong (story and general content wise, anyway) and then tripped and fell on it's face. At least for me.

[Sondrelk]

SL did not need to be a comeback. It's just needed to not suck. And it sucked.

The problem with SL was a lack of buildup and massive droughts. Covenants were annoying, but not enough to completely ruin the experience, just out it on par with other growing pain problems most expansion systems have (whether they should have these problems is another question.)

All 10.0 needs to improve on SL is just a slightly more engaging story and to have a solid release cadence.
Especially now that tier sets have returned.

[Syegfryed]

But what is the missing link? Why does Blizzard suck ass at figuring out the formula to Legion's success? Because BfA and SL were not it. Is it Artifact Weapons? A new class? A steady patch cycle? Or lore that actually mattered? Could be all of them, could be something completely different.

It is more profit for less work, they start working less, on everything, less content, less people, less work on classes and story so on.

Legion, BfA and shadowlands are the same breed of expansions, but Legion had effort, there was a lot of stuff and work done, 12 class halls, more than 30 artifacts and more ways to keep people engaged

[Sondrelk]

All of the above. Artifacts were cool and could have been expanded upon. The patch cycle was near perfect! Steady content, wasn't too close, wasn't too far apart. Generally really well planned.

And the lore actually mattering, actually feeling like Warcraft, actually being decently well written ....

It hit every thing right. Like MoP and Wrath were both good for all of that except the patch cycle, honestly, and I felt like with Legion they got the patch cycle right, and the actual content itself was decent to good for the patches.

BFA started strong (story and general content wise, anyway) and then tripped and fell on it's face. At least for me.

Honestly out of all the things I would say the only thing Legion absolutely nailed was the release cadence.
An almost perfect 11 week wait between each patch where each one managed to give a large amount of content simply by only releasing the raids in the minor patches instead of the major ones.

Other than that I have a hard time justifying Legion as this untouchable monolith of WoW perfection.
The only reason I think I am willing to accept the Legiondary system even remotely is because I got lucky on my first drop. But even with that there were other classes I really wanted to try but never got into because I didn't get the correct legendary until 7.3.
And 7.2 is still one of the worst patches the game has added. The absolutely pitiful weekly "storyline" was anemic even by the lowest of WoW standards, which further compounded how Kil'jaeden ended up completely wasted.

There were loads of problems with Legion that needed to be ironed out, and we only really accepted it back then because WoD was so terrible, and the ideas we got in Legion were new and exciting.
The problem isn't that we haven't made Legion again, but rather that the improvements have not been pronounced enough, especially in BfA. SL mostly managed to untangle the last pieces, but ended up failing because of forces outside it's control.

[Wangming]

The problem with SL was a lack of buildup and massive droughts. Covenants were annoying, but not enough to completely ruin the experience, just out it on par with other growing pain problems most expansion systems have (whether they should have these problems is another question.)

All 10.0 needs to improve on SL is just a slightly more engaging story and to have a solid release cadence.
Especially now that tier sets have returned.

Question is, after scandals, antagonistic communication and two bad expansions in a row, would "improvement over SL" be enough for the majority?

[Nymrohd]

The problem with SL was a lack of buildup and massive droughts. Covenants were annoying, but not enough to completely ruin the experience, just out it on par with other growing pain problems most expansion systems have (whether they should have these problems is another question.)

All 10.0 needs to improve on SL is just a slightly more engaging story and to have a solid release cadence.
Especially now that tier sets have returned.

I have an issue with Covenants that may feel a bit unique.
Never before in WoW have I been presented with a system with so many collectibles, so many of which are mediocre and that require such a daunting grind to acquire everything. The only time that came close was Wrath with the Argent Tournament. Only the tournament just had you do some crappy dailies for a few months. Covenants have you doing content for many months (Really before Korthia it would have been more than a year) over multiple characters encountering constant gating for your cosmetics that forces you to regrind things multiple times.

Covenants just made me give up on trying to collect their mogs. Just not worth my time.

Beyond that I think post launch content in SL is not just slow to come by. It's also weak on collections. Korthia and Zereth Mortis have very limited mogs compared to the previous two expansions. And Covenant mogs are just not that impressive. They are not bad but they do not compare with Legion raid tiers or BfA Warfront armor (or even Uldir/Dazar'alor Mythics). For the investment required they are just not worth it. The only SL armor I might use as a mog for any of my characters after the xpac is over are the Heroic and Mythic recolors of the Plate SoD armor (especially with ZM finally giving us some of the matching weapons). Meanwhile almost all of them are in Legion and BfA Mogs.

[Grimbold21]

two bad expansions in a row

This is all that matters for the overwhelming majority of people still playing or wanting to play the game. People haven't left WoW due to the scandals, and I'd wager a bit that if they said they did, they're lying or performing.

Hell, the company keeps spinning the predatory practices of hamster wheels because the players keep running on it.

[Ashapls]

what the heck were they doing the last year(s) if they are so late although they cut Shadowlands content by a considerable margin?

COVID and Lawsuit. So, not doing much of anything.

[Syegfryed]

There were loads of problems with Legion that needed to be ironed out, and we only really accepted it back then because WoD was so terrible, and the ideas we got in Legion were new and exciting..

Legion lore was not that good either, neither well written, there was a lot of mistakes and shit on it, like the assassination of vol'jin and illidan our hero. Legendary random drop to me was asinine.

People were just too starved after WoD that anything remotely good was praised tenfold, and maybe it will happen again with dragonflight, they just need to not shit the bed in this one.

[Dioporco]

They cant write a basic story (Legion) nor metaphysics one (Shadowlands)


I mean in CATA we never adress the rape of alexstraza and her captivity plus we let dragonmaw joins horde and she didnt burn orgrimmar to ashes in retailation.


bruh

[Nymrohd]

Legion lore was that good either, neither well written, there was a lot of mistakes and shit on it, like the assassination of vol'jin and illidan our hero, Legion random drop to me was asinine.

People were just too starved after WoD that anything remotely good was praised tenfold, and maybe it will happen again with dragonflight, they just need to not shit the bed in this one.

Legion lore had serious issues and handled the Legion extremely poorly. But it had such an insane amount of fanservice that you still felt compelled to follow.

[Sondrelk]

Question is, after scandals, antagonistic communication and two bad expansions in a row, would "improvement over SL" be enough for the majority?

The playervase has been conditioned into accepting anything less than WoW: The actual return of Jesus, and also 1 million in your account, as falling short of its potential, so aiming for another "WoW is great again" is almost definitely not going to happen.

But I think that if Blizzard took the good parts of SL. In this case covenant reward systems/zone upgrades, Tier Sets, great vault. And combined this with a story and continent that players are more excited for, then the expansion would really shine.

The "perfect" WoW expansion is simply impossible since there are so many contradictory wants from the playerbase, so aiming for that won't work regardless. But you can make a damn good one regardless.
Especially after SL being universally reviled i don't think it's a stretch to assume we might be looking at another WoD to Legion situation where the good things are amplified by comparison to SL, even regardless of their inherent quality. Even more so when you consider how poor many of the Legion systems were, compared to how favourably it's looked upon now.