Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[czarek]

One thing I do hope is that Blizzard gets better with having us fight massive creatures. Deathwing was a disaster and N'zoth was a cop-out. Galakrond and Chromatus should both be bigger than Deathwing. Find a way to let us fight massive creatures. Maybe something enlarges us, maybe we fight them on dragonback.

Enlarge would change nothing imo. Nothing i mean. If we scale up to bigger boss there is no view change vs what we fighting with. But yeas fight vs big bad boss would be cool. Like our toon will be more or less smaller than his thumb.

[Lady Atia]

This is a dumb comparison. You might as well pretend the Sims being popular is somehow a marker of the attractiveness of housing in an MMO. Animal Crossing is a completely different genre of game, with completely different gameplay, played by a very dissimilar audience.

You know what makes Animal Crossing look like a complete joke? The success of gacha games. That doesn't mean adding mission table followers with cute splash art you can roll for in loot crates is an attractive feature that's sure to bring in tons of players.

Same could be said about pet battles and pokemon. Blizzard was always good when they took something from others and made their own spin on it. And I tell you, the demographic of people who like pet battles, transmog, collecting and casual content is overlaping with people who like animal crossing or the sims, and I will also tell you that this demographic is far bigger than people who do organized raiding.

[Wangming]

No one* plays Genshin because of the teapot, which is widely considered kinda shitty. Or because of it's non-minigame cooking system whose "gameplay" is just a hurdle to being able to auto-cook, or for the fishing system that is utterly and completely pointless outside of The Catch. Wow fishing is genuinely more interesting and rewarding despite just being clicking on a bobber, just by virtue of its varied and usable rewards, and not being tied to stupid low-count pools on a cooldown.

This is the whole problem. You guys conflate a game doing well with all the systems in that game being a good idea that should be added, when in reality you listed off several badly implemented systems in genshin to leave the actual good part (it's open world) as an afterthought.

People don't play FFXIV for the housing*. You know how I know? Casual observation:

When people are organically talking about the game, they go:

"FFXIV is great, the story is awesome!"
"FFXIV has really amazing music!"
"FFXIV has such a nice community!"

They don't go "Oh yeah, I play FFXIV because it's housing is so great". The only time I've ever even seen it get brought up on these forums is when there's already a discussion specifically about housing and its used as an example of a current MMO with a functional housing system.

Just like absolutely no one* is playing Genshin for Serenitea, despite it being a fairly robust system that gets additions frequently.

The fact that a system functions in another game that is doing well does not evidence it being a good or worthwhile system to add. Especially when the nature of that system means hijacking a non-negligible amount of dev time from the art and systems teams for the foreseeable future. Time that could go into systems from those games that actually do have real value, like Genshin's open world content.

People don't play Wow for housing, and no significant portion of the playerbase is leaving because of the lack of housing. Which makes it not some winning idea "to get people back", but rather a secondary bullet point that might get people who are already content with the game and would likely try 10.0 anyway slightly more excited to do so.

--

*Yes, this is hyperbole and there are atypical people who are exceptions.

I won't say you are wrong but I will say that WoW still lacks both the things that make Genshin popular, and the things that make FFXIV popular. Granted music is a matter of taste, but you can't deny those more with their music with character themes, battle themes, boss battle themes and on and on and on.

Also that's just my personal oppinion but I like the serenitea pot. It's not the reason why I play the game. I play it for the characters, the story and the open world content. But I still enjoy it. As I do the cooking. And even if I auto cook there is the question of what character to cook with. Do I want a special dish or a bonus dish? I know I can't speak for everyone, but I hate that every crafting profession in WoW is just: click and wait for the bar to fill. I don't say rip off the FFXIV profession system, but WoW professions are unengaging. There isn't much to engage with. At least back in the days you had to mine an ore vein many times to get all the stuff.

[Nyel]

One thing I do hope is that Blizzard gets better with having us fight massive creatures. Deathwing was a disaster and N'zoth was a cop-out. Galakrond and Chromatus should both be bigger than Deathwing. Find a way to let us fight massive creatures. Maybe something enlarges us, maybe we fight them on dragonback.

The latter does not work, see Oculus or the Malygos bossfight. They've been pretty much hated by everyone. As soon as the gameplay becomes 3D, it's a nightmare for everyone - encounter designers and players as well. It simply doesn't work.

Fighting massive enemies is an issue in basically every game, the most recent example is Elden Ring. Many boss battles are a nightmare for melee builds because the camera is f*cked up and you don't see the boss most of the time. It's horrible and takes away a lot of fun. So unless you make everyone "ranged" for that fight, it's just not doable.

[Alanar]

This. They really need to add atleast Housing to 10.0 if they want people back.

I am really not sure about that.. honestly.

Some people care to move a chair in some house and others dont. Housing is really not a feature everyone likes by default. It was pretty clear. Its like tinkers.. some hate it some like it. Neither are universally liked.

[Santandame]

That people have something to work for, easy as that. I would lock them behind a questline that can be started once you reach max level with your previous toon. So that it's not something people can start at day 1 of the expansion.

Unlocking something is a goal players can work towards. Oh and I am not talking about something as badly done as unlocking flying or something gated behind reputation. Make it a good, long and challenging questline that doesn't rely on weekly grinds. I'd say a micro class is worth the hassle.

I mean you don't need those restrictions I made up with armor classes. But those micro classes - if they're a thing - shouldn't be available just by purchasing the new expansion. They should be a reward for playing the expansion.

I'm going to have to disagree with you.

They should not lock new classes behind content. If I wanted to main a Tinker or a Dragon Knight for Dragonflight, then its going to suck to have to wait to be able to play it. The start of an expansion is already a rush in terms of getting your character up to date and speed. You shouldn't have to suffer and fall behind the pack, just because your class is locked behind content. New classes should absolutely be available immediately upon launch, or during the pre-patch.

What I do agree with, is your approach to giving players something to work for and towards. I agree that this also shouldn't be time gated, or reputation gated. A feature that would work really well locked behind content, in terms of a long, difficult quest chain complete with a solo scenario or challenge like the Mage Tower, would be Class Skins. Something that is is cool, flavourful and cosmetic, that won't be hindered by being being locked behind content, like a new class would be. The questline to unlock Class Skins should be something that the player can do at their own pace. If they want to sweat it out in a couple days then so be it. If they want to take their time with it, and acquire better gear to help with the difficult challenge at the end of it, then that is fine too.

Locking classes behind content, whether time gated or not - is really not a good idea.

What I could get behind though, if these micro classes are genuinely coming, would be to lock specs behind content. While I would personally, want all specs at launch for these said new micro classes; giving players something to work towards in terms of unlocking further specs would be a nice comprises in terms of pushing us to working towards unlocking new things. Maybe as a Tinker, to learn how to pilot a mech, you need to go on a long quest chain at max level throughout Undermine, but also revisiting certain places in the history of WoW that have a strong Tinker presence, such as Gadgetztan, the sail barge in Thousand Needles, a revamped Gnomeregan, which would then culminate in a Mage Tower style solo challenge in The Motherlode dungeon. Voila, after completing this, Tinkers have now unlocked a spec in which they can play as a Tank.

In my opinion, the above would actually make ''micro'' classes a pretty good addition, if they actually are to be believed as a genuine feature coming in the next expansion. Having them come in, with new content attached to them in the form of quest lines and difficult solo scenarios (or even grouped) to unlock new specs, would be both different to what we are used to, and a cool, exciting new idea to making the game actually feel like an RPG.

[Nymrohd]

The latter does not work, see Oculus or the Malygos bossfight. They've been pretty much hated by everyone. As soon as the gameplay becomes 3D, it's a nightmare for everyone - encounter designers and players as well. It simply doesn't work.

Fighting massive enemies is an issue in basically every game, the most recent example is Elden Ring. Many boss battles are a nightmare for melee builds because the camera is f*cked up and you don't see the boss most of the time. It's horrible and takes away a lot of fun. So unless you make everyone "ranged" for that fight, it's just not doable.

I think Oculus and Malygos were horrible because they were vehicle combat, not because they were 3D. What I meant was that we'd be fighting on dragonback using our normal abilities but perhaps with full casting while moving. When we'd move, we would be moving our dragon mount around in 3D or even possibly in 2D; there would effectively be a single plane of motion and our mounts would not really gain height OR alternatively there would be several planes but it would not function continuously, e.g. you'd be jumping from ground level to a shoulder level to a level outside reach. All the mount would do is fire the breath weapon intermittently and perhaps give us an extra action button. A massive hitbox solves the melee issue. Targetting reticles would ofc be a problem; they consistently are problematic in 3D combat after all and even more so if the scale is massive since while range spells can still target the boss due to the hitbox being massive, healing reticles in particular would suffer.
Could also be a mechanic that not everyone has to use; Imagine e.g. if the tanks are on Wrathion and Alexstrasza and the group can pick three other players to use Kalecgos, Merithra and Nozdormu so they can perform special tasks.

[Lady Atia]

I think Oculus and Malygos were horrible because they were vehicle combat, not because they were 3D. What I meant was that we'd be fighting on dragonback using our normal abilities but perhaps with full casting while moving. When we'd move, we would be moving our dragon mount around in 3D or even possibly in 2D; there would effectively be a single plane of motion and our mounts would not really gain height OR alternatively there would be several planes but it would not function continuously, e.g. you'd be jumping from ground level to a shoulder level to a level outside reach. All the mount would do is fire the breath weapon intermittently and perhaps give us an extra action button. A massive hitbox solves the melee issue. Targetting reticles would ofc be a problem; they consistently are problematic in 3D combat after all and even more so if the scale is massive since while range spells can still target the boss due to the hitbox being massive, healing reticles in particular would suffer.
Could also be a mechanic that not everyone has to use; Imagine e.g. if the tanks are on Wrathion and Alexstrasza and the group can pick three other players to use Kalecgos, Merithra and Nozdormu so they can perform special tasks.

Tbf we basically had that with Al'akir's last phase and it still played like shit.

[Nymrohd]

I dissagree that it would bring lots of players back.

Some people care to move a chair in some house and others dont. Housing is really not a feature everyone likes by default. It was pretty clear. Its like tinkers.. some hate it some like it. Neither are universally liked.

New class/ new race is where its at I think.

The housing question resurfaced largely because a senior UI designer told us that they have been working on something for more than half a year. New class/race would not really be the kind of content that engages UI designers for that long. A class skin system could if it was very involved. Housing most definitely would since it really depends on UI though.

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Tbf we basically had that with Al'akir's last phase and it still played like shit.

Yeah that's why I suggested a pseudo 3D approach (3 2D planes of motion that you can switch to during the fight) later in the post; Al'akir definitely was not fun (progressed in that fight and it was just not cool). Or limiting the 3D combat to tanks and a few others and otherwise just making the hitbox massive.
Also did not help that the primary mechanic of the last phase focused entirely on vertical motion and involved area denial that was very poorly telegraphed.

[Alanar]

It's not.
The biggest argument is the time and resources required to implement it.

Player housing does not keep you locked up in your instanced space.
It does not do so in any game that has the feature, and it fundamentally can't do that as the whole point is to play and interact with others so you can get furniture and decoration to put in there.

On top of that, blizz will likely not be able to pull it off as everyone has in their mind.

We will end up with fake choices, barely any costumization and just generally unfun like garrison, I really have no faith in a feauture like that in wow anymore. We have to much references at this point to ignore it.

I just dont see much fun in it either, so idk man. Its multiple things, but ye mostly people are afraid that it costs time on other features that are maybe more interesting for some.

[pacotaco]

Let’s assume we are going the way of uniting Azeroth in 10.0

With the cross faction gameplay coming it would suggest that we could possibly be seeing the same with the dragonflights so there is the matter of figuring out what stands in the way there

1. The bronze missing their aspect and the looming creation of the infinite
2. The blue being reunited with the lost part of their flight that resides on the broken isles and includes dragons able to breed
3. The green dealing with the loss of Ysera and her daughter taking over
4. The red and what we last saw as Alex trying to reason with what turned into the void flight
5. The black and Wrathion’s little search for the dragon isles along with more black dragons appearing in island expeditions
6. The twilight flight and where they sit now in terms of being possible allies or enemies to the overall forces of Azeroth

Wrathion is still kinda shunned by the other dragons based on BfA and we currently only have 1 true aspect so in terms of story conflict it would make sense for past enemies to return and I see 3.

1. Scarlet crusade which can easily be led by a black dragon because they like meddling in human affairs and giving themselves power.
2. Chromatus who is just sealed could easily be broken out by remnants of the twilight cult or even the infinite and since it took multiple aspects to beat him it places him at the best point to be reintroduced as a threat.
3. Galakrond who is the first enemy of the aspects and who merely lost due to his size being his biggest weakness and the map datamined all those years ago without his bones in it could support he is brought back and he would become the biggest threat due to his ability to spread undeath.

Each of these could be end bosses of raids and they all have support via different forces.

Scarlet crusade has support via black dragons and any who hate the current alliance rule

Chromatus has the twilight cult which still survives

Galakrond essentially makes his own army but I can see the infinite lending a hand

You forget the Nether Flight, that would certainly join Wrathion and his bunch of uncorrupted Twilight dragons.

[Zulggun]

I don't think so, games like Animal Crossing are successful for a reason.

So is Chess but it doesnt's mean wow characters should move around on black and white squares.

[ClassicPeon]

I would have loved the garrison as a subzone to a capital. (like a wing in Karabor or Bladespire).
Having the farm, mission table, the mine and 2 or 3 customizable buildings for yourself, but using the rest of the capital together with everyone else.

Not sure what that has to do with my post

[Makorus]

Where is this "Blue Dragons on the Broken Isles can still breed" thing coming from? The whole part of the quest chain is that they are the last brood available and the Nightborne are killing their whelps.

[Lady Atia]

So is Chess but it doesnt's mean wow characters should move around on black and white squares.

Do you really compare a roleplaygame with .... chess? My example would be two citrus fruits, yours would be .... a citrus fruit and ... a cucumber?

[ClassicPeon]

Or the market has changed enough that the content FF offers matches people's needs better than what WoW has. M+ never went away during Shadowlands. The raids were not at all bad either. So much of the playerbase that left probably was not focused on instanced group content. They left because there was no solo world content (or any other form of solo content for that matter) and went to a game that offers such content aplenty.

We have no reason to suspect that. Everyone knows wow is in a slump. As i said - if you disregard that its your problem.

[Jekyll]

Ah yes! I saw this after looking for any mention of Dalaran after their reply.

Very interesting indeed... A third Dalaran update would be disappointing but not surprising at the least. Hopefully it gets added on to: like adding all of the additional islands orbiting Dalaran we hear about in lore and art but never see in game.

I think this time Dalaran would be replaced back to Tirisfal Glade and would not float anymore.

[ClassicPeon]

SNIP

I'm not the one saying it btw

[Zulggun]

Do you really compare a roleplaygame with .... chess? My example would be two citrus fruits, yours would be .... a citrus fruit and ... a cucumber?

Well you can eat both so I don't see what the problem is. Also Animal Crossing is nowhere near Wow in terms of gameplay so why is your idea amazing and mine so bad?

[Nymrohd]

On top of that, blizz will likely not be able to pull it off as everyone has in their mind.

We will end up with fake choices, barely any costumization and just generally unfun like garrison, I really have no faith in a feauture like that in wow anymore. We have to much references at this point to ignore it.

I just dont see much fun in it either, so idk man. Its multiple things, but ye mostly people are afraid that it costs time on other features that are maybe more interesting for some.

I will say this, it will mostly cost time up front to design the UI.
Blizzard absolutely clutters the game with doodads. Really their decorative approach is completely maximalist with not a corner left without a lamp, pillow, plushie or whatever. And they keep adding more of those in every single patch with every new architectural style. ALL of these would end up as furnishings. They make them already. The moment they can treat them as collectibles they might make a few more (or more likely just keep reskinning those they'd already be making anyway).
I will agree though that I don't trust them to not limit how we decorate so far that we stop having options (after the garrison I could totally see them just having specific spots where you can place things and that's it). Also they have always been extremely conservative with their building design. Most WoW buildings provide little verisimilititude; they just do not look like anyone could possibly live in their single room houses that usually have a bed, table and a fireplace in barely enough space for three people to stand around, let alone move. ESO for instance has very spacious houses in the overworld; even peasant houses usually have an attic, are large enough to feature dividers, have a kitchen and a pantry. If housing is that tiny, yeah we are better off not getting any. And if housing is proper it immediately makes the rest of the world feel out of scale.

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We have no reason to suspect that. Everyone knows wow is in a slump. As i said - if you disregard that its your problem.

I mean . . . I gave a reason? Sure wow is in a slump but that slump barely affects instanced content. People whose focus is grouped instanced content did get their content with only slight delays. Did people in raiding guilds abandon WoD with two exceptional raids at the same pace as casuals?