Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Niwes]

What I was saying was that there is a significant population that would be pleased by this, far more than you indicated. These are not exact numbers and are dramatically reduced by WoW Analytica's data collection methods. If there were actually only 15k people that would benefit it would be a terrible investment, but I was using that as generalized evidence that there exists an audience for it. Outside of the dominant faction of the largest roleplaying realm's Alliance guilds (I don't recall precisely how WoW Analytica calculates guild numbers, but I think it's based on raiders alone, so this is even then only likely a small portion of the guilds on Alliance-MG) there are even more guilds with many members on other servers (even some non-roleplay servers) and on other factions that may benefit from player housing.

I figure that the number of guilds on roleplaying realms total would definitely justify guild halls as an addition, as well as the fact that there are surely some guilds on non-roleplaying guilds that would benefit from them. I believe that the total amount of people who would benefit from guild halls is actually quite large.

The investment into guild halls would also surely not be as large as you're making it out to be. Instanced, alterable environments would not require that much in the way of resources and time to make—we've seen private servers create alterable environments with far less in the way of resources, and guild-based instanced environments wouldn't be hard to make at all.

well written and i can not really disagree. foremost since wow was built up over many many years as a place where everyone find it’s niche. regardless if raids, dungeons, pvp, quests, pet battles, mounts, achievements, guilds, ah trading or roleplay. wow offers A LOT to MANY different ppls. and i assume that’s one of the biggest problem for Blizz, and often the root of many problems. it’s hard to cater to a such broad and diverse audience. but it was Blizz that started offering everyone something. now they also should handle it, instead of just milking the cow the cost effective way.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

While I think certain parts of the wow player base would freak out, I think that would end up being a net positive. I don't use it much myself, but a lot of people do and most of them still do dungeons with other players too.

I mean given the state of WoW's playerbase I think a lot of folks would love the ability to farm dungeons (normal/heroic of course definitely not mythic or mythic+) (on which note can we just do away with the formality of heroic continuing to exist?) without hearing "pull pull pull faster faster faster omg this isn't fast enough /quit"

[SniperCT]

Yeah, I mean, there are a million places in Warcraft that I would consider having a house. It obviously will start small, but I hope that it doesn't just grow over time to new places, but doesn't start too small either because yeah, most players would be disappointed if it was only human and orc, but it's a pattern the game has followed for many other systems so it's something I want to brace for.

I still feel the sting over the garrisons not having the different building styles, so yeah I get it.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

I still feel the sting over the garrisons not having the different building styles, so yeah I get it.

I still remember when they said we could move our Garrison and I was excited to put mine in Talador.

So much potential in the base-building side of Garrisons that got utterly trashed and buried under the mission table and the profession stuff.

[Chickat]

*back when vanilla was developed*

doesnt really says nothing?


Blizzard had this map too



uhh zandalar a bit off the chart isnt?

Dire Maul in Northern EK lmao.

[SniperCT]

I mean given the state of WoW's playerbase I think a lot of folks would love the ability to farm dungeons (normal/heroic of course definitely not mythic or mythic+) (on which note can we just do away with the formality of heroic continuing to exist?) without hearing "pull pull pull faster faster faster omg this isn't fast enough /quit"

I never ran mythics at all (let alone +s) lol so I don't know what I'd do if there were no heroics. So farming dungeons with a trust would be nice.

I kind of wish FF14's trust let you duo that way. Go in with my wife and fill out the last 2 slots, instead of having to solo it.

eta: I COULD do mythics I just don't like them

[Jokubas]

I still feel the sting over the garrisons not having the different building styles, so yeah I get it.

Garrisons are definitely one of the biggest examples that was in my mind the whole time I was writing.

I still remember when they said we could move our Garrison and I was excited to put mine in Talador.

So much potential in the base-building side of Garrisons that got utterly trashed and buried under the mission table and the profession stuff.

Every once and awhile I'll see someone say that Garrisons "prove" that player housing is a failed idea in World of Warcraft. It always drives me nuts because Garrions were pitched much closer to player housing. I myself even sort of accepted them as "Warcraft's answer to player housing, via an RTS base" sort of thing, which I even thought was kinda neat.

But the things that made Garrisons most like player housing, like being able to put the Garrison in your favorite zone, and I feel like there was even the implication that they might add more building variety, were all removed long before we got our hands on them. I remember suggesting that pre-Warlords of Draenor zones get "Garrison plots" so we could carry our Garrison beyond the expansion, but even placing them where we wanted in Draenor never happened!

If anything, the disappointment in Garrisons is proof of an audience for player housing, not proof that a stripped down wannabe player housing is equivalent.

[Niwes]

No one will ever be truly satisfied by a game that is made by everyone. That's just the fact of the matter. But people can still enjoy what there is in the game.

When all the story is being locked behind end game group content that is meant to be made repeatable, it alienates the majority of the player base who would rather unsub than go through those hoops. Most people who do LFR don't actually enjoy the experience enough to stay subbed for the long run either. LFR is a stopgap that has fostered a new type of end-game progression, but still alienates the majority who simply would rather solo to enjoy the story, or worse yet, watch it all on youtube instead. While LFR is good for a wide audience, it's not an ideal solution.

Solo content and solo raids would be much more ideal.



Again, not mutually exclusive.

A simple solution that already exists in other MMO's I've played is simply have a tangential Story Mode raid that is designed for solo-type play.

Have a solo raid designed to be Epic Quest level difficulty, with appropriate LFR-like rewards. Have it be the same raid as designed for group play, but with followers and named NPCs supporting you, similarly to Mage Tower. Have gimmick mechanics that focus on having the player simply survive the raid and complete each boss encounter as a means to completing the story and quest; Blizzard can tune the challenge to allow super-casuals to breeze through, or tune up the difficulty and allow players to learning the actual mechanics of the raid at their own pace. There are dual benefits to having this system, and having it play-at-your-own-pace removes the stress and pressure of players who aren't confident joining group content because they don't know the mechanics.

It's win-win. I mean you ever solo'd an old raid? No one yells at you for screwing up Heigan's safety dance when you solo it. You get all the chances you need to practice it on your own. But you'd never be able to practice it in normal circumstances without progressing to it normally and having to have everyone else stop at this boss and not kill him in order to allow you to practice.

I think if Blizzard opened up solo raids, it would help boost the standard of people actually attempting group content. And if not, it can remain as a solo-viable experience for anyone who chooses to use it in this way. Anyone who still wants to get gear and progress through the game can still do so with Group content, which remains the most relevant end-game content there is. Just having a solo option with its own rewards and progression doesn't change that any more than us talking about having Mythic Dungeons or PVP Arenas.



That would be Blizzard's biggest concern. I don't think they've ever been legitimately challenged as the 'MMO-Champion' as much as they have in recent years. Shadowlands still turned up record-breaking numbers, but also was the first real time some long-term players left for other games. This will be a challenge for Blizzard, and it's ultimately up to them to decide which audience to focus on since they have all the data.

I just think that everything we have in WOW is pretty ass-backwards when all the biggest conclusions to the story in the game is locked behind Raids. I can't even introduce new players to the game knowing that most of the old raid storylines are all locked behind raids that they can't even attempt without having someone higher level help breeze them through it. I don't agree with the design, and honestly, we're at a point in time where changes can be made.

Otherwise, Blizzard is totally fine with keeping the cycle going and alienating most of the casual fans and letting them be reoccurring bi-yearly subbers, while only focusing on keeping the raiders happy. I just think it's going to bite them in the ass once they realize some casuals may not come back at all if they start investing in other games which actually appeal to casual sensibilities.

I mean, even Gabe Newell, longtime WoW player, has decided to quit with Shadowlands. To me that's big news, cuz I see him as being a pretty big example of a casual 'whale' who comes back every expansion to do the new stuff, even if he's not a hardcore raider or whatnot. But for him to even leave when the expansion was still relevant is kind of telling that Blizzard needs to step up and bring back the casuals. Cuz the competition has risen the bar, and I don't think WoW can't just win back the casuals who have left for other games just by doing what they've always been doing.

IMO, it's more of a pillar of gaming they need to reassess, rather than just any one particular feature like 'Solo Raid' or 'Epic quests'. Even crafting and professions have become less relevant as expansions have moved on, with more focus being put back into parasitic design or grindy systems like conduits. And frankly, I don't think that really appeals to casuals at all. They really need to nail down what casuals actually want to do.

Collecting. Story content. Solo-repeatable content. That's what I think they need to focus on.

Comparable ilvl gear to Mythic Raids? Making less raid content? These are pointless fears since adding more solo content has no real impact on how Raids progress right now. We've had compelling solo end game content in the game before, and it's never been a problem.

also rather well written and i 100% agree to storytelling in raids. i never get why they did this, since day1. raids and dungeons should be playable content. for gameplay. story should be telled in quests and solo game designs. for „hanging around in a living and breathing world“, made for outdoor adventure immersion. i not agree to everything you said, in detail. but to a lot of your points i have a surprisingly same opinion.

[SniperCT]

Garrisons are definitely one of the biggest examples.

Every once and awhile I'll see someone say that Garrisons "prove" that player housing is a failed idea in World of Warcraft. It always drives me nuts because Garrions were pitched much closer to player housing. I myself even sort of accepted them as "Warcraft's answer to player housing, via an RTS base" sort of thing, which I thought was kinda neat.

But the things that made Garrisons most like player housing, like being able to put the Garrison in your favorite zone, and I feel like there was even the implication that they might add more building variety, were all removed long before we got our hands on them. I remember suggesting that pre-Warlords of Draenor zones get "Garrison plots" so we could carry our Garrison beyond the expansion, but even placing them where we wanted in Draenor never happened!

If anything, the disappointment in Garrisons is proof of an audience for player housing, not proof that a stripped down wannabe player housing is equivalent.

I remember all of that, including building types. Then they obviously redirected resources (probably to Legion) and it all fell through.

I despise the way they abandon concepts to expansions. Farming in MoP, garrisons, artifacts, etc.

If they ever add sailing like I want I just know it'll be abandoned instead of expanded upon.

[Jokubas]

I remember all of that, including building types. Then they obviously redirected resources (probably to Legion) and it all fell through.

I despise the way they abandon concepts to expansions. Farming in MoP, garrisons, artifacts, etc.

If they ever add sailing like I want I just know it'll be abandoned instead of expanded upon.

You know, I think Garrisons might have been one of the first times they bragged that a feature was only ever intended to exist for that one expansion. I get it. I get that you want expansions to have selling features but if you have something really cool and new every expansion and plan to support it forever, there will eventually be too many features to support and the game is going to collapse under that feature creep.

However, never having anything continue forward creates its own problem and we've definitely experienced massive diminishing returns on the idea as selling points. No one's excited about a selling point they know isn't going to matter for more than two years maximum.

Also, World of Warcraft isn't the only place I've been seeing it recently, but there also seems to be a problem of thinking that the only thing that has worth is something that catches on right out of the gate. Again, I get not throwing good money after bad, but we've also had so many interesting ideas with flawed executions seemingly abandoned because of the flawed execution, instead of just fixing the execution and making them beloved.

I mean, I know it's a controversial opinion, but out of all the Mission Tables, my favorite is still the original Garrison one. Why? Because there was so much variety in it. Sure, to guarantee the endgame missions you were still encouraged to min-max and prioritize special characters, but there were a million followers and traits and the whole thing had so much flavor. Nowadays it feels like the Mission Tables are there just to fill some quota. I don't care which generic Kyrian and Venthyr I'm sending on a generic mission. I'm not sending Garona who I have trained to Dance and Love Ogres, which actually meant something to me, even if the gameplay side of it was still set and forget.

[Dracullus]

Forget about early Vanilla maps. In lore Dragon Isles is place that "only few know about and even fewer have been there" (BfA quest which is only mention about them so far). It won't be near the coast of Lordaeron.

[SniperCT]

You know, I think Garrisons might have been one of the first times they bragged that a feature was only ever intended to exist for that one expansion. I get it. I get that you want expansions to have selling features but if you have something really cool and new every expansion and plan to support it forever, there will eventually be too many features to support and the game is going to collapse under that feature creep.

However, never having anything continue forward creates its own problem and we've definitely experienced massive diminishing returns on the idea as selling points. No one's excited about a selling point they know isn't going to matter for more than two years maximum.

Also, World of Warcraft isn't the only place I've been seeing it recently, but there also seems to be a problem of thinking that the only thing that has worth is something that catches on right out of the gate. Again, I get not throwing good money after bad, but we've also had so many interesting ideas with flawed executions seemingly abandoned because of the flawed execution, instead of just fixing the execution and making them beloved.

I mean, I know it's a controversial opinion, but out of all the Mission Tables, my favorite is still the original Garrison one. Why? Because there was so much variety in it. Sure, to guarantee the endgame missions you were still encouraged to min-max and prioritize special characters, but there were a million followers and traits and the whole thing had so much flavor. Nowadays it feels like the Mission Tables are there just to fill some quota. I don't care which generic Kyrian and Venthyr I'm sending on a mission. I'm not sending Garona who I have trained to Dance and Love Ogres, which actually meant something to me, even if the gameplay side of it was still set and forget.

I swear that's 50/50 players/devs fault, the whole abandoning promising features rather than fixing them. Players for being impatient and devs for not sticking to their guns.

Though sometimes things to get better. Original implementation of transmog sucked, for example.

[Chickat]

I made this as a rough concept of what I think the Dragon Isles should/could look like. I know it's not super innovative as it basically just combines the obvious ideas all into one, like having one zone for each dragonflight and including a Titan Facility (which is something everyone already expects).

If I had more time, I could have tried to flesh it out with more info about raids, dungeons, quest hubs, etc. but I also don't think I'm very good at coming up with ideas like that. My only wish is that we get more Caverns of Time type stuff if there's a Bronze dragonflight zone.



EDIT: Also, in hindsight, I'd probably swap the locations of some of these zones. Like maybe Blue dragonflight's zone should be in the center so the snow makes more sense (?) and Bronze dragonflight's zone should be where I placed the Green dragonflight's zone.

This is really cool.

[draugril]

I get that you want expansions to have selling features but if you have something really cool and new every expansion and plan to support it forever, there will eventually be too many features to support and the game is going to collapse under that feature creep..

Complete myth. One that Blizzard enjoys because it justifies their development philosophy. But if you’ve played MMOs outside of WoW both before it and after it, there are quite a few examples of games that continually add features and don’t “collapse.” Why not? Because, generally speaking, they isolate those features and future proof them, no future iterations required. They also tend not to spend the bulk of their resources designing systems that they deliberately throw out and reinvent every two years.

[Chickat]

That would be real cool. That or Scholomance as a raid or Megadungeon would be great.

What is a rebuilt atratholme was that alliance city.

- - - Updated - - -

Thinking of another Ragefire Chasm type dungeon inside where you have to go into a locked district of the city away from all the civilians to clean up the remainder of the scourge that were too powerful for the guards to handle.

Thats a really cool idea.

- - - Updated - - -

Bard: And now... For my final ability, I'm gonna play Wonderwall.

Mob: Please no! Anything but that!

Wonderwall is great -.-

[SniperCT]

Complete myth. One that Blizzard enjoys because it justifies their development philosophy. But if you’ve played MMOs outside of WoW both before it and after it, there are quite a few examples of games that continually add features and don’t “collapse.” Why not? Because, generally speaking, they isolate those features and future proof them, no future iterations required. They also tend not to spend the bulk of their resources designing systems that they deliberately throw out and reinvent every two years.

Case in point POTD and HoH in FF14. Basically what Torghast tried to be. Still relevant, still played, designed in such a way as they don't really need to do much with them now except bug fixes. Even end game dungeons and raids remain relevant because they get rolled into the scaling LFD system at the end of an expansion. Meaning that I could, right now, queue up for the end game from an expansion 3 expansions ago, and be scaled in such a way that it's still a challenge and still fun and players regularly do this, like the queue is comparable to any other content. (Or I can check the box for going in at max level if I felt like it)

Pretty much everything added to that game generally remains doable and relevant without needing to be constantly updated. At most, the occasional new reward and bug fixes.

[Chickat]

Praying we’ll get new race/class combinations. I want my Night Elf Shaman T_T

Pandaren and belf druid for me.

[Kiria]

You mean extend the exile reach dungeon to other dungeons?

Yes omg yes please!!! or at least use NPC's like the trust system in FFXIV.

Hell add a base raid version for people to do instead of having to deal with the Toxicity of LFR.

[maplesyrupgl]

Hey guys I've found a LEAKED image of the Dragon Isles. Each section represents one of the dragonflights (Black dragons are underground).



I also have it on good authority that Azeroth is a First Ones construct who is lying under the sea and her face is directly below the island.



At the end of the expansion she'll wake up and stand up, which you can see here:

[ercarp]

Wonderwall is great -.-

It's just a meme, I don't think I've ever even heard it.