Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Deventh]

You can keep up your mental gymnastics, but the story, every NPC and herself disagree with you. So ye, you are now denying reality.

Ye because Horde = Bad. The story is bad and doesn't make much sense and that is a thing most people playing the game agree on.

[Makabreska]

Ye because Horde = Bad. The story is bad and doesn't make much sense and that is a thing most people playing the game agree on.

Story may be bad, but it is correct and canon. What happened happened, and was rightfully taken blame for.

[Aenigma84]

People talking about levels or no level increase may forget one thing
the obvious choise blizzard should go for is to put everybody back at 50 & let you level to 60 again
that way new players/alts can pick shadowlands to level like you can do with all the other expansions now

[Skildar]

Sorry, but I think the overwhelming majority in and outside of the game (aka forums, social media etc.) disagrees on this. So far that it's basically the main reason why Shadowlands is absolutely disliked. The major, massive lore f*ck ups are the biggest offender of Shadowlands. Everything besides that is at least middle of the road or even decent.

The Warcraft universe would be way more cohesive and way better if we just made Shadowlands non-canon. That's how terrible and damaging most of the major lore aspects in this expansion have been.

get down your high horse and even if people here tend to say that only negativity is heard concerning this expac, I've read and heard many feedback saying otherwise. Stop reacting the way you do and you'll hear more.

Now what was so great having the chronicles laying out everything and making them unique truth for you to want this expac to not be canon?
What's wrong with having unknown creators of the universe with enough mystery surrounding them that you don't feel the need to lead a cosmos war and take care of your home?

[Nymrohd]

It's amazing that when Horde stans try to use equivocations they fail to even use the right ones. The goblins first killed the archeological expedition send there by the Alliance (and kidnapped Sapphronetta Flivvers).

[micwini]

This kind of post comes around often in this community, whether or not it be on Reddit, Twitter or here in the hype thread. I have some opinions on posts like this and seeing I'm parting ways with the community anyways what better time than this to share said opinions.

I don't think this way of binary thinking/exaggeration is constructive to this thread, the community or the game in general. Classifying people as either defenders or haters isn't and has never been helpful in the slightest. Nor do I think have I seen anyone actually saying BfA and Shadowlands have been "fucking great and amazing".

The implication that Activision Blizzard, and soon to be Microsoft, being a huge company makes them not care about the game isn't fair at all as there's many other companies/studios, even those that are now part of Microsoft, that still care about their games. WoW might not be as big of a priority for the company as it used to be, but it is also a very old game at this point and the amount of resources they're still sticking into it surprises me (which is not neccesarily a good thing).

As for listening to player feedback, Blizzard has listened to various things over the course of this expansion, most of which were listed by Dracullus here. Whether or not they listened to the right things, enough things or even made the right decisions based on feedback is definitely up for debate.

There is also the widely-hated Community Council (which for transparency reasons I am a member of), whether or not it is a PR move and whether or not it is helping, which has been shining a light on certain issues, some of which have been answered with actual changes. In my opinion it is still something they're not utilizing enough or even handling correctly, but 10.0 Alpha/Beta will cast the final verdict on the council (for me) as that is when the answers to most of the feedback would show up or (what people are expecting) end up being ignored.

The game has a very passionate fanbase, most of which have spent many years playing and caring about the game. I understand that when things aren't as fun as they used to be, or when you feel like Blizzard is actively destroying something you love about it (e.g. lore) it sucks to have invested so much time into something and it ending up like that. Shadowlands definitely hasn't been as fun compared to previous expansions for me either, with the exclusion of some of the alt-friendly changes they've done and Torghast (which I enjoyed right up to the current ilvl wall casuals like me cant climb over).

Anyways, end of rant, sorry for the arguably off-topic post but I needed to get this out of my brain.

Thank you for this down to earth post. We love you and what you do for the community.

[Marlamin]

I can tell you that I find shadowlands to be great and amazing. It has done very good things for the lore by expanding its universe the right way and getting rid of the "we now know everything from the creation of the universe to the major players of the cosmos even if we never met/encountered them".
For sure this expansion has some major issues and people point their finger on it almost everyday and some still bug me (big lore characters idling in oribos and not participating the slightest in the events happening, kel'thuzad becoming a begging idiot, casual players get much better rewards in the weekly vaults through mm+ than raid, etc.). Raids are very good, no god tier raid like Battle for Dazar'Alor but still very good! Dungeons became excellent!

I didn't like at all BfA. The theme and story telling that did not resonate with me, but it was the farming that was overbearing. Despite this, it has always been clear that Blizzard want WoW to be entertaining and are actively listening to players. If you've played BfA you had to notice this. They redid their whole endgame systems to be engaging and rewarding and without the clunkiness of loosing power when you get higher level reward.

Like you've pointed in your thread and some others did as well, these efforts are always ongoing but people expect the impossible out of the dev like if running the show for almost 20 years made them able to see into the future... Anyway it's important to continue criticising the game but if people could do the bare minimum research and took some short time before expressing their frustration we would be left with much less aggressive and nonsensical feedback

I've definitely seen a lot of negativity about the story/lore in Shadowlands, but I've also quit a majority of the communities I was in this year so my impressions are based only on what I've seen at the time and what I see in this thread/on Twitter (which granted, are the vocal people because we've just seen what happens if you say you liked the story ). I do like the fact that they sketch that there's "more out there" and would love for them to explore that at some point -- but only if doing in a parallel manner where Azeroth still matters (and this is my hope when I say I'd like to see "parallel content" in 10.0).

Sorry, but I think the overwhelming majority in and outside of the game (aka forums, social media etc.) disagrees on this. So far that it's basically the main reason why Shadowlands is absolutely disliked. The major, massive lore f*ck ups are the biggest offender of Shadowlands. Everything besides that is at least middle of the road or even decent.

The Warcraft universe would be way more cohesive and way better if we just made Shadowlands non-canon. That's how terrible and damaging most of the major lore aspects in this expansion have been.

In the end it's all based on opinion, it's okay to like Shadowlands and there's no need to try and convince (or tell people) that they're wrong in doing so. It usually only ends up in frustration on either or both ends.

[Nyel]

get down your high horse and even if people here tend to say that only negativity is heard concerning this expac, I've read and heard many feedback saying otherwise. Stop reacting the way you do and you'll hear more.

About the lore - which I am explicitly talking about? In 1.5 years I haven't seen any positive word about Shadowland's lore. Here and there exists some praise for small NPC questlines or NPCs in general, but overall praise for the major plots or characters? It does not exist. And what has this to do with a high horse? Shadowlands' lore is the worst part about the entire expansion. There's no reason to debate this because it's simply a fact.

- - - Updated - - -

Now what was so great having the chronicles laying out everything and making them unique truth for you to want this expac to not be canon?
What's wrong with having unknown creators of the universe with enough mystery surrounding them that you don't feel the need to lead a cosmos war and take care of your home?

Easy answer: a) because it was unnecessary and b) because it makes no sense.

- - - Updated - - -

In the end it's all based on opinion, it's okay to like Shadowlands and there's no need to try and convince (or tell people) that they're wrong in doing so. It usually only ends up in frustration on either or both ends.

I'm not trying to convince anyone, I envy everyone who thoroughly enjoys the Shadowlands lore.

[Nymrohd]

get down your high horse and even if people here tend to say that only negativity is heard concerning this expac, I've read and heard many feedback saying otherwise. Stop reacting the way you do and you'll hear more.

Now what was so great having the chronicles laying out everything and making them unique truth for you to want this expac to not be canon?
What's wrong with having unknown creators of the universe with enough mystery surrounding them that you don't feel the need to lead a cosmos war and take care of your home?

I mean this xpac trivializes death. Random civilians can in canon wonder into through a portal into Oribos and go sight seeing. We portal to Bastion and Maldraxxus to grab some help with dealing with the undead AFTER Zovaal was offed so the connection is clearly still open. Every religion in Azeroth lost any sense of mystery as we now know what happens when we die. We even got to interact with Elune, meet her sister and get told what exactly she is (pretty much the biggest mystery in WoW). All this to replace things with a paint by numbers cosmology.

Instead of building on existing lore about the afterlife, the focus is on replacing it and transforming original and iconic themes into simulacra. The Scourge is just a pale copy of Maldraxxus, the Dreadlords are behind everything, Ancients don't wait in the Emerald Dream to be reborn (even though this has been a plot point explored and actively shown in game, shown in books as well)

The team completely fails to build any narrative impact in the story. We are constantly told but never shown about how things are threats. We chase after a villain whose motives are unknown yet not unknowable. Everything depends on the idea that the McGuffin is in ZM even though the main point of ZM is that no one (including the Eternals) has been there or knows what is in there. We are not even ever told what he is planning; we find out in a book (and we'd have no reason to believe him anyway up until he dies and actually seems sincere). The sigils are introduced as super important, only for the Covenants to be able to recreate them the very next week after they got stolen.

Zereth Mortis itself makes no sense. We are told its where the Shadowlands get created. NOT creation itself, just the Shadowlands (else there would only be one Zereth, not one per force). Yet most of ZM seems dedicated in prototyping the Mortal World, not the Shadowlands.

The expansion fails multiple times to be internally consistent to its own lore. The eternals create an Arbiter using Zovaal's sigil yet we then find out that only in ZM could an arbiter be made. Where did they get a vessel? The least confident and most ambivalent character introduced becoming the supreme Judge whose first proclamation is that he will send no souls to the Maw, even though souls are almost never send to the Maw directly; only after denying any redemption in Revendreth over aeons will someone be condemned) and will consult with souls about where they want to go. That would actually make sense if the narrative seen in the book about loved ones being separated was shown at any point in game. It really wasn't at least not as something problematic.

We see the writers trying to copy the brilliant Lessons of Vivec with some philosophy in a can statements via Firim. Two issues are that first by devaluing old lore, player investment in the lore is significantly undermined and second, the new lore offered is much too shallow to allow for meaningful speculation.

The one thing I don't mind is Sylvanas. I don't really think they could have managed a better ending for her after the trainwreck that was BfA. The book confirms that she is a moron, which was apparent throughout BfA and Shadowlands by effectively attributing all her decisions to confirmation bias but at least that is an understandable form of stupidity, especially nowadays.

On a personal level, I am so very annoyed that Bastion's philosophy, a clear expression of Taoist judgment and the need for distance to acquire objectivity is vilified to push Western individualism. The exceptionalism is so unabashed probably because it was never challenged or investigated.

[ercarp]

Moon-touched


https://www.warcraftpets.com/wow-pet...d-netherwhelp/

Holy shit, Elune's Lunar Dragonflight was always in the game and I never even noticed? That's amazing.

[Nymrohd]

Holy shit, Elune's Lunar Dragonflight was always in the game and I never even noticed? That's amazing.

Rather it has to do with the still unexplained lunar phenomenon of Shadowmoon valley.

[cocomen2]

Elune as White Dragon, so basically its:

[Skildar]

I mean this xpac trivializes death. Random civilians can in canon wonder into through a portal into Oribos and go sight seeing. We portal to Bastion and Maldraxxus to grab some help with dealing with the undead AFTER Zovaal was offed so the connection is clearly still open. Every religion in Azeroth lost any sense of mystery as we now know what happens when we die. We even got to interact with Elune, meet her sister and get told what exactly she is (pretty much the biggest mystery in WoW). All this to replace things with a paint by numbers cosmology.

Instead of building on existing lore about the afterlife, the focus is on replacing it and transforming original and iconic themes into simulacra. The Scourge is just a pale copy of Maldraxxus, the Dreadlords are behind everything, Ancients don't wait in the Emerald Dream to be reborn (even though this has been a plot point explored and actively shown in game, shown in books as well)

The team completely fails to build any narrative impact in the story. We are constantly told but never shown about how things are threats. We chase after a villain whose motives are unknown yet not unknowable. Everything depends on the idea that the McGuffin is in ZM even though the main point of ZM is that no one (including the Eternals) has been there or knows what is in there. We are not even ever told what he is planning; we find out in a book (and we'd have no reason to believe him anyway up until he dies and actually seems sincere). The sigils are introduced as super important, only for the Covenants to be able to recreate them the very next week after they got stolen.

Zereth Mortis itself makes no sense. We are told its where the Shadowlands get created. NOT creation itself, just the Shadowlands (else there would only be one Zereth, not one per force). Yet most of ZM seems dedicated in prototyping the Mortal World, not the Shadowlands.

The expansion fails multiple times to be internally consistent to its own lore. The eternals create an Arbiter using Zovaal's sigil yet we then find out that only in ZM could an arbiter be made. Where did they get a vessel? The least confident and most ambivalent character introduced becoming the supreme Judge whose first proclamation is that he will send no souls to the Maw, even though souls are almost never send to the Maw directly; only after denying any redemption in Revendreth over aeons will someone be condemned) and will consult with souls about where they want to go. That would actually make sense if the narrative seen in the book about loved ones being separated was shown at any point in game. It really wasn't at least not as something problematic.

We see the writers trying to copy the brilliant Lessons of Vivec with some philosophy in a can statements via Firim. Two issues are that first by devaluing old lore, player investment in the lore is significantly undermined and second, the new lore offered is much too shallow to allow for meaningful speculation.

The one thing I don't mind is Sylvanas. I don't really think they could have managed a better ending for her after the trainwreck that was BfA. The book confirms that she is a moron, which was apparent throughout BfA and Shadowlands by effectively attributing all her decisions to confirmation bias but at least that is an understandable form of stupidity, especially nowadays.

On a personal level, I am so very annoyed that Bastion's philosophy, a clear expression of Taoist judgment and the need for distance to acquire objectivity is vilified to push Western individualism. The exceptionalism is so unabashed probably because it was never challenged or investigated.

Will we see Kel'thuzad, Ursoc or Garrosh again? no because they are dead. Everything you see in the shadowlands are souls channeled into this plane where they are neither alive or truly dead.
This is the part where it's important to make the distinction, there is death, the true unknown it's not the shadowlands though.

The more I read your complaining the more I understand that you didn't put any real effort to understand the story of the shadowlands...

[Vakir]

it was about "metal armor" it could be anyone, not naked. Sylvanas remembered Anduin's words about "hope" when she saw who it was.

It's described as unexpected...just a second after her internal thoughts described how she fully expected to find Nathanos eventually.

A chapter earlier they described Anduin's armor making that exact sound.

It's Anduin. Sadly, we're probably doomed to see them both much sooner.

On the topic of Blizzard and feedback, the problem is they launch systems with planned obsolescence for the purposes of drip feeding content to fix it a patch and a half later, only to recoup lost subs. Covenants should've launched in their 9.1.5 state the whole time. We were saying that from go, people argued we just didn't know for sure and were being negative, and suddenly everyone realized we were right. I fully expect it to happen again in some capacity.

[ercarp]

This kind of post comes around often in this community, whether or not it be on Reddit, Twitter or here in the hype thread. I have some opinions on posts like this and seeing I'm parting ways with the community anyways what better time than this to share said opinions.

I don't think this way of binary thinking/exaggeration is constructive to this thread, the community or the game in general. Classifying people as either defenders or haters isn't and has never been helpful in the slightest. Nor do I think have I seen anyone actually saying BfA and Shadowlands have been "fucking great and amazing".

The implication that Activision Blizzard, and soon to be Microsoft, being a huge company makes them not care about the game isn't fair at all as there's many other companies/studios, even those that are now part of Microsoft, that still care about their games. WoW might not be as big of a priority for the company as it used to be, but it is also a very old game at this point and the amount of resources they're still sticking into it surprises me (which is not neccesarily a good thing).

As for listening to player feedback, Blizzard has listened to various things over the course of this expansion, most of which were listed by Dracullus here. Whether or not they listened to the right things, enough things or even made the right decisions based on feedback is definitely up for debate.

There is also the widely-hated Community Council (which for transparency reasons I am a member of), whether or not it is a PR move and whether or not it is helping, which has been shining a light on certain issues, some of which have been answered with actual changes. In my opinion it is still something they're not utilizing enough or even handling correctly, but 10.0 Alpha/Beta will cast the final verdict on the council (for me) as that is when the answers to most of the feedback would show up or (what people are expecting) end up being ignored.

The game has a very passionate fanbase, most of which have spent many years playing and caring about the game. I understand that when things aren't as fun as they used to be, or when you feel like Blizzard is actively destroying something you love about it (e.g. lore) it sucks to have invested so much time into something and it ending up like that. Shadowlands definitely hasn't been as fun compared to previous expansions for me either, with the exclusion of some of the alt-friendly changes they've done and Torghast (which I enjoyed right up to the current ilvl wall casuals like me cant climb over).

Anyways, end of rant, sorry for the arguably off-topic post but I needed to get this out of my brain.

I'm sorry if I'm fed up with the way Blizzard has been treating my favorite game for the past couple of years. Maybe it is a me problem, and maybe I should move on and just play other games, but I'm not going to start pulling my punches or patting Blizzard on the back for caving into the players' demands at the very last second when they've already met their player retention quota with their dozen or so time-waste systems and have nothing left to lose.

The devs can do better with Modern WoW (Legion showed us that) and they should be criticised and held accountable for their mistreatment of WoW over the years. This game means so much to so many people and it's like they're actively trying to drive it into the ground. It's honestly embarrassing when you compare WoW to how some other similar games which shall not be mentioned are being run.

I have nothing to gain with being buddy-buddy with Blizzard and I'm more than happy to actually give them props once they do something right, but the unfortunate reality is that, as of late, they haven't. There's only one good thing about SL that I can say, and it's that closing off Sylvanas's arc means we hopefully won't see her for a while, which in turn means they can start trying to write better stories with more interesting characters. It could signal a step in the right direction at least in terms of writing, but that remains to be seen.

But hey, I'm still here, because I care about the game (arguably more than some of the devs) and I'll continue huffing on hopium and hoping that whatever comes next (whether that's 10.0, 11.0, or 12.0) will be the one that brings it all back and makes the game good again. So despite my criticisms, I'll probably always have at least that tiny bit of faith left in this company to undo at least some of the damage they've inflicted to this game over the years. And my bar is actually much lower than that of most critics, as I would be perfectly fine with a Legion 2.0 (and no, BfA and SL were not Legion 2.0 and Legion 3.0; they were garbage).

[Nymrohd]

Will we see Kel'thuzad, Ursoc or Garrosh again? no because they are dead. Everything you see in the shadowlands are souls channeled into this plane where they are neither alive or truly dead.
This is the part where it's important to make the distinction, there is death, the true unknown it's not the shadowlands though.

So your claim is that there is another death beyond death. But nothing suggests that. Everything suggests that what awaits these souls that were killed again in Shadowlands was just oblivion. Did you stumble into some lore that suggested otherwise?

Ursoc: We've seen multiple ancients arrive to the Emerald Dream immediately after dying. Actually seen it happen (to Ysera as well) at the end of the raid. We have ancients emerge from the Dream during Cataclysm and see the issue again in novels like Stormrage. All that lore invalidated to fit Ardenweald. Ardenweald is actually a solid story, just still invalidates tons of old lore that we interacted with. Also somewhat weird when Ursoc had to die again so he can be dead dead. If he went somewhere else, why would everyone be so sad? Because the first death doesn't mean much. I mean Aggra died, she still could come back to the mortal world to infilitrate Legion structures. Heck with the mind wiping gone in Bastion, anyone who goes there will keep visiting the mortal world constantly.

Kel'thuzad: First off, why is Kel'Thuzad in Maldraxxus? How did he escape Revendreth? He is not been there long enough to have found redemption and get a chance to be re-sorted. Second, how was he serving Zovaal all along? If Zovaal could communicate freely, why would he need Sylvanas? KT had a story, one told both in novels and in game (the original Naxxramas trailer) all of it changed to fit the new lore. And yeah he is dead as well, cause he got killed again! This death thing really needs an extra run to stick apparently.

So what are the Shadowlands? They are not afterlives apparently. They are just a parasitic plane of existence that hijacks souls to use up their anima to maintain its own structures?

[Fahrad Wagner]

Elune as White Dragon, so basically its:

I'm so ready for this haha

[Skildar]

So your claim is that there is another death beyond death. But nothing suggests that. Everything suggests that what awaits these souls that were killed again in Shadowlands was just oblivion. Did you stumble into some lore that suggested otherwise?

Ursoc: We've seen multiple ancients arrive to the Emerald Dream immediately after dying. Actually seen it happen (to Ysera as well) at the end of the raid. We have ancients emerge from the Dream during Cataclysm and see the issue again in novels like Stormrage. All that lore invalidated to fit Ardenweald. Ardenweald is actually a solid story, just still invalidates tons of old lore that we interacted with. Also somewhat weird when Ursoc had to die again so he can be dead dead. If he went somewhere else, why would everyone be so sad? Because the first death doesn't mean much. I mean Aggra died, she still could come back to the mortal world to infilitrate Legion structures. Heck with the mind wiping gone in Bastion, anyone who goes there will keep visiting the mortal world constantly.

Kel'thuzad: First off, why is Kel'Thuzad in Maldraxxus? How did he escape Revendreth? He is not been there long enough to have found redemption and get a chance to be re-sorted. Second, how was he serving Zovaal all along? If Zovaal could communicate freely, why would he need Sylvanas? KT had a story, one told both in novels and in game (the original Naxxramas trailer) all of it changed to fit the new lore. And yeah he is dead as well, cause he got killed again! This death thing really needs an extra run to stick apparently.

So what are the Shadowlands? They are not afterlives apparently. They are just a parasitic plane of existence that hijacks souls to use up their anima to maintain its own structures?

why do you force a distinction between death and oblivion, it is the same thing just a different way of calling it.

Ursoc is no more, you can stop you rumbling. Kelthuzd ended in maldraxxus because not every soul that succombed to hubris ends in Revendreth and it is acknowledged in the game

[Raetary]

Speaking of souls, what happened to Mal'ganis?

He dies in the Sepulcher, but he is a demon so is he back in the TN or does being in the heart of Death override that?

[Vakir]

Speaking of souls, what happened to Mal'ganis?

He dies in the Sepulcher, but he is a demon so is he back in the TN or does being in the heart of Death override that?

They need named Dreadlords for the future Denathrius story. He'll be back.