Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Khaza-R]

So what are the Shadowlands? They are not afterlives apparently. They are just a parasitic plane of existence that hijacks souls to use up their anima to maintain its own structures?

This is honestly where I thought the story was going in 9.2. It at least would of rationalized why Zovaal and Sylvanas wanted to destroy it.

I think the truth (or at least a version of it) is hidden in the updated cosmic forces chart. Life overlaps with the Void and Disorder. So perhaps life in the WarCraft universe is unnatural and chaotic. The Shadowlands might have been created to keep order of all those moral souls that perish. Maybe otherwise they would overwhelm the forces.

But the chart also features two serpents devouring one another. One dead and one alive. So its connection must go both ways. Maybe those souls obliterated and turned into anima are necessary for new souls to exist. Maybe souls like Kel'thuzard and Garrosh are gone but will get reincarnated into new souls.

[Nymrohd]

why do you force a distinction between death and oblivion, it is the same thing just a different way of calling it.

Ursoc is no more, you can stop you rumbling. Kelthuzd ended in maldraxxus because not every soul that succombed to hubris ends in Revendreth and it is acknowledged in the game

What rumbling? I gave a series of arguments. You did not counter them. You just said I understand nothing (without explaining what I don't understand) and now accuse me of rumbling. I guess I am too stupid to debate with you then.

[Yus atath]

How are the two in any way similar? Is it just because the acquisition of Azerite and Anima is similar? That makes as much sense as claiming PvP is the same as battle pets dungeons since both can be heavily influenced by raid drops.

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I have yet to hear why Artifact power and Azerite are similar to Anima though.
Is it really just that they drop from similar sources that makes players dislike it?

Ever heard of the word CONCEPT? Its the SAME concept. In all 3 expansions we BARROW power/abilities + grind some sort of power resource.

[Raetary]

why do you force a distinction between death and oblivion, it is the same thing just a different way of calling it.

Probably because the writers established said distinction?
Oblivion is non-existence in this context, Death is not non-existence in the warcraft universe, its another form of existence altogether.

[shoc]

Probably because the writers established said distinction?
Oblivion is non-existence in this context, Death is not non-existence in the warcraft universe, its another form of existence altogether.

Hedcannon, souls that die in the Shadowlands, Demons who die in the Nether, Elementals who die in the EP, all go to the Voidlands, final destination.

[Makabreska]

Kel'thuzad: First off, why is Kel'Thuzad in Maldraxxus? How did he escape Revendreth? He is not been there long enough to have found redemption and get a chance to be re-sorted. Second, how was he serving Zovaal all along? If Zovaal could communicate freely, why would he need Sylvanas? KT had a story, one told both in novels and in game (the original Naxxramas trailer) all of it changed to fit the new lore. And yeah he is dead as well, cause he got killed again! This death thing really needs an extra run to stick apparently.

Kel'thuzad was never in Revendreth. He was sent directly to Maldraxxus due to his high ambitions he had in life, one of the requirements to be sent there (as explained by Vashj).

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Speaking of souls, what happened to Mal'ganis?

He dies in the Sepulcher, but he is a demon so is he back in the TN or does being in the heart of Death override that?

Demons respawn is kill after we defeated Argus.

[Marlamin]

I'm sorry if I'm fed up with the way Blizzard has been treating my favorite game for the past couple of years. Maybe it is a me problem, and maybe I should move on and just play other games, but I'm not going to start pulling my punches or patting Blizzard on the back for caving into the players' demands at the very last second when they've already met their player retention quota with their dozen or so time-waste systems and have nothing left to lose.

The devs can do better with Modern WoW (Legion showed us that) and they should be criticised and held accountable for their mistreatment of WoW over the years. This game means so much to so many people and it's like they're actively trying to drive it into the ground. It's honestly embarrassing when you compare WoW to how some other similar games which shall not be mentioned are being run.

I have nothing to gain with being buddy-buddy with Blizzard and I'm more than happy to actually give them props once they do something right, but the unfortunate reality is that, as of late, they haven't. There's only one good thing about SL that I can say, and it's that closing off Sylvanas's arc means we hopefully won't see her for a while, which in turn means they can start trying to write better stories with more interesting characters. It could signal a step in the right direction at least in terms of writing, but that remains to be seen.

But hey, I'm still here, because I care about the game (arguably more than some of the devs) and I'll continue huffing on hopium and hoping that whatever comes next (whether that's 10.0, 11.0, or 12.0) will be the one that brings it all back and makes the game good again. So despite my criticisms, I'll probably always have at least that tiny bit of faith left in this company to undo at least some of the damage they've inflicted to this game over the years. And my bar is actually much lower than that of most critics, as I would be perfectly fine with a Legion 2.0 (and no, BfA and SL were not Legion 2.0 and Legion 3.0; they were garbage).

I'm not saying it's not okay to criticize or to hold devs accountable for what you feel like was bad for the game. That's perfectly okay and arguably the only good thing to do in that case, but don't take it out on fellow players who are happy with the game or don't share the exact same opinions as you by calling them "defenders", that's not helpful (and the same should be said the other way around; don't classify people as "haters"). Both people that like the game and don't like the game can be right.

Remain contructive, don't resort to insults and if arguments get personal simply stop engaging. There is nothing to gain by escalating these kind of things as they often do here.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Demons respawn is kill after we defeated Argus.

Demons still respawn, Argus was just a massive accelerator for the process. Now they slowly drift back to the twisting nether where they reform. Essentially what Illidan went through. It's an inherent ability of the race, which is why Sargeras went nuts in the first place, because he killed them, yet there was no end to it, which led to imprisoning them instead.

[Raetary]

Demons respawn is kill after we defeated Argus.

No, Sargeras used Argus as an anchor and way to accelerate their respawn time.
Demons are inherently tied to the twisting Nether, have been before Argus was ever corrupted.

[Skildar]

What rumbling? I gave a series of arguments. You did not counter them. You just said I understand nothing (without explaining what I don't understand) and now accuse me of rumbling. I guess I am too stupid to debate with you then.

You don't need to react this way...
I found the ref for Revendreth-Maldraxxus dilemna : https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The..._of_Maldraxxus

For Ursoc, I was merely saying that the topic is moot. In Cataclysm they've resuscitated many wild gods that sacrificed themselves 10.000 years ago. It felt way too easy to do it during these events. Now we know that it's not just an Emerald Dream call that wasn't dialled before, it's actually a process of rejuvenation through the shadowlands (ardenveald). Which gives it more weight. We were sad that we had to kill Ursoc during Legion because he died controlled by the nightmare and it will probably take again thousands of years to see him again (the thought at the time) therefore the people present will likely not see him back.

It's not a matter of being an idiot or anything, it's just that it's tiring to have "debates" with people that are this convinced to be right by spewing a few random facts distorted to fit their accusations and at the same time not reading half of the story they're talking about. I'm not an expert on lore and I often get many things wrong as well, but here you were getting frustrated at the basic definition of the shadowlands which are explained in the first videos and the first few steps we take in this plane. The more we travel into the place the more we understand this.

For the rest, I thank the community that participate actively in the redaction of the wowpedia website

[Nymrohd]

It's not a matter of being an idiot or anything, it's just that it's tiring to have "debates" with people that are this convinced to be right by spewing a few random facts distorted to fit their accusations and at the same time not reading half of the story they're talking about.

I absolutely should react this way. You claim my arguments are accusations, that my facts are distorted and that I don't know the story.

[Fahrad Wagner]

Keep it nice people we should speculate and prepare to celebrate, not fight

[huth]

Demons respawn is kill after we defeated Argus.

That's just for the accelerated respawn in Antorus and respawn when killed in Fel/Nether-infused areas. Regular respawn just takes way longer.

There is the problem of him also being a denizen of the Shadowlands, however... Ultimately, this is down to whatever Blizzard wants it to be.

[Nymrohd]

No, Sargeras used Argus as an anchor and way to accelerate their respawn time.
Demons are inherently tied to the twisting Nether, have been before Argus was ever corrupted.

Yeah this did need a bit of clarification but this is how I understood it as well. Also the Nathrezim were supposed to be an exception? Which would make sense if they are creatures of Death.

[pacotaco]

This little guy always bugged me out, I really wonder if it was a teaser all along

Yeah, like I said when they revealed it: That's a weird choice. Why moon-touched?
Someone responded to me "well, it's a nether-dragon from Shadowmoon to promo TBC Classic"
I could get the nether-whelp to mirror the pet from TBC Collector's, but why not "fel" instead of "moon-touched"? I don't remember anything actually moon-related from the original Shadowmoon in TBC.

[Nymrohd]

That's just for the accelerated respawn in Antorus and respawn when killed in Fel/Nether-infused areas. Regular respawn just takes way longer.

There is the problem of him also being a denizen of the Shadowlands, however... Ultimately, this is down to whatever Blizzard wants it to be.

I think it's fairly problematic that we just came off the expansion that was supposed to delve into the afterlife and we probably have more questions about it than before.

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Yeah, like I said when they revealed it: That's a weird choice. Why moon-touched?
Someone responded to me "well, it's a nether-dragon from Shadowmoon to promo TBC Classic"
I could get the nether-whelp to mirror the pet from TBC Collector's, but why not "fel" instead of "moon-touched"? I don't remember anything actually moon-related from the original Shadowmoon in TBC.

It was added much later though. Shadowmoon Valley really had a reason to be called Shadowmoon. Sad they never talked about why the moon behaved so weird in Draenor.

[Fahrad Wagner]

It was added much later though. Shadowmoon Valley really had a reason to be called Shadowmoon. Sad they never talked about why the moon behaved so weird in Draenor.

That's fair, I guess it was just that then

[Raetary]

Maybe draenor was tidally locked to its big moon, so the moon was always in the same spot covering the valley?

[taishar68]

I mean this xpac trivializes death. Random civilians can in canon wonder into through a portal into Oribos and go sight seeing. We portal to Bastion and Maldraxxus to grab some help with dealing with the undead AFTER Zovaal was offed so the connection is clearly still open. Every religion in Azeroth lost any sense of mystery as we now know what happens when we die. We even got to interact with Elune, meet her sister and get told what exactly she is (pretty much the biggest mystery in WoW). All this to replace things with a paint by numbers cosmology.

Without trying to figure out exactly what parts of the game are story canon or not (there was some debate that going back to Org/SW is a gameplay QoL, and as far as the story goes, we haven't left SL), I would point out that to the common beings on Azeroth, none of what transpired will ever really be known. Keep in mind, as the story has developed over time, our characters spend time with the most powerful beings on the planet, heck you could argue we are part of that designation, but most of the world is just dealing with life as they go.

So, if we assume that a bunch of world leaders, and some very powerful heroes, are gone for awhile, and come back, how much are they really going to talk about what they experienced with say, a bartender or a farmer, and, would they even be believed? Faith is a very strong thing, and not easily broken by someone just coming up and saying "You're wrong". So if Night elves or orcs or humans have an idea of what the afterlife is, I doubt that these ideas would be fractured much by my Mage or your Rogue stopping by to say "all that you were told is a lie, etc.", assuming that we would even do so. To wit; if someone on Earth claimed to have visited the afterlife as a mortal, and showed us the portal they used to get there, we'd think they were insane, and most rational people would not jump into a glowing door given the chance, and even if a few did, it's unlikely to have a great effect.

As far as the canon goes, I think about it occasionally but it doesn't melt my head. I'm far more frustrated and annoyed about how the story affects my character choices (see Sylvanas arc) than how all the canon lines up, and, I want to see better quest text, better dialogue, smarter dialogue, and that will have a bigger impact on the game experience, at least for me. I can really do without characters like Lor'themar describing the Mawsworn kidnappers as "dastardly fiends"...I mean, seriously?

[huth]

I think it's fairly problematic that we just came off the expansion that was supposed to delve into the afterlife and we probably have more questions about it than before.

I wouldn't say that. Before, all we knew is that it's where the dead go. There weren't any details to ask questions about.