Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Marlamin]

You joke, but that would bring a lot of fun and energy to the game. It's not like they take the story seriously anyway.

Who said I was joking?

Don't put me on the lore council Blizzard

[Nymrohd]

Mind giving a recent example where something was datamined that happened completely different in the end? I mostly remember something being datamined, then everyone trying to bend over backwards that it surely isn't that way, only to be exactly that way. Like the ending of Sylvanas, the datamined jailer puppet, heck even as far back as the burning of Teldrassil and surely many more.

Sure. Sylvanas' voice lines in the Crown of Wills questline about letting an arrow loose. Without the visual context of the scene, the last arrow she had let loose was against the Jailer. It led to a lot of drama about her "redemption"
It's also an example of the other point I brought. When that voice line was datamined, WoWHead pushed that narrative hard with an additional article on exactly that line. The calmer people at lore forums were asking people to wait for context but it definitely soured the early 9.2 reception.

[ChairmanKaga]

All the talk about the various dragon flight groups (Red, Black, Green, Blue Bronze) could Twilight be added to non-antagonistic to the player based off the uncorrupted mount Wrathion saved from Nyalotha?

[deviantcultist]

All the talk about the various dragon flight groups (Red, Black, Green, Blue Bronze) could Twilight be added to non-antagonistic to the player based off the uncorrupted mount Wrathion saved from Nyalotha?

That's also interesting. Definitely better than basic dragon fantasy.

[Vakir]

Story has absolutely no reason to not be as encrypted as is possible. Context does matter for the end result or the overall perception because the journey to get to the destination does impact how you perceive it. And I say that as someone who fucking hates WoW's story. Datamining exists for the other game, and you can see a pretty harsh division between the people seeking it out on Discords and getting bits and pieces of the endgame devoid of any context and the people who actually went through it as intended.

It's not going to create any illusions of quality - the end cinematics for both major bosses this patch were both poorly received even with context at the correct time. But certain beats like the Crown of Wills line @Nymrohd mentioned or the Pelagos Arbiter questline was different with context.

Systems and class changes and everything inbetween should absolutely be 100% transparent from the word "go" and if anything be given even greater written context, like when some changes or experimental data shows up and people lose their minds BEFORE devs clarify.

Even if you look at it from the POV that datamining story content earlier would mean more feedback to change it, I'd argue that 1. If the artist needs to write by community committee by that point, maybe they aren't half as talented as they think they are or need to be and 2. Maybe the negative reception they ate needs to be suffered to learn how to pull their heads out of their asses.

[Nymrohd]

Maiev bringing up all the murders she committed & was never punished for seemed strange thing to include in the Judgement dialog. Yeah Maiev maybe you should help clean out the maw too.

Now that was one weird character turn. In one book they work within the existing character and make her question Tyrande's decision to bring arcane mages and taking vigilante action against them (entirely in character) and then they realize they ruined the character by taking her fully into villain territory so in Legion they just "forget" all that and say she was just temporarily insane. Because obviously they wanted her to interact with Illidan. It is moments like this that make me feel STUPID for being a fan of Warcraft's lore because the people in charge of it are clearly never going to prioritize the lore over giving an "epic" moment or moving forward with their narrative goal. The lore be damned. Which inevitably ends with people being disillusioned and caring less or just being constantly angry about it.

[Ersula]

Maiev isn’t dead. She can still atone for her sins on Azeroth

Sylvanas isn't dead either. Undead /= dead.

It just seems like a big plothole for Tyrande to be like, "This is Maiev, she murdered a bunch of my friends & was tricked into helping Ragnaros try to burn the world: She is my best friend" and "This is Sylvanas, she burned a tree which can never be forgiven"

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Now that was one weird character turn. In one book they work within the existing character and make her question Tyrande's decision to bring arcane mages and taking vigilante action against them (entirely in character) and then they realize they ruined the character by taking her fully into villain territory so in Legion they just "forget" all that and say she was just temporarily insane. Because obviously they wanted her to interact with Illidan. It is moments like this that make me feel STUPID for being a fan of Warcraft's lore because the people in charge of it are clearly never going to prioritize the lore over giving an "epic" moment or moving forward with their narrative goal. The lore be damned. Which inevitably ends with people being disillusioned and caring less or just being constantly angry about it.

I like how they gave Sira this legitimate criticism of Tyrande as forever-king of the night elves, but it seems like it would have been easier to turn Maiev into a Dark Warden. Oh how the tables have turned.

[draugril]

That's also interesting. Definitely better than basic dragon fantasy.

That mount was Void, not Twilight.

[Makabreska]

Sylvanas isn't dead either. Undead /= dead.

It just seems like a big plothole for Tyrande to be like, "This is Maiev, she murdered a bunch of my friends & was tricked into helping Ragnaros try to burn the world: She is my best friend" and "This is Sylvanas, she burned a tree which can never be forgiven"

A tree with a crapton of civilians on it. But hey, details.

[draugril]

Also, I see we've past the page of my birth year. :O

[Nymrohd]

Even if you look at it from the POV that datamining story content earlier would mean more feedback to change it, I'd argue that 1. If the artist needs to write by community committee by that point, maybe they aren't half as talented as they think they are or need to be and 2. Maybe the negative reception they ate needs to be suffered to learn how to pull their heads out of their asses.

Also I have to add that there have been very limited instances when the outcry over the story was so severe that minor changes were made in the PTR. First with Alliance in the patch before SoO then with Tyrande in the Night Warrior questline in BfA (early on she was even wimpier). Ofc what they can do is extremely limited.

[Ersula]

Story has absolutely no reason to not be as encrypted as is possible. Context does matter for the end result or the overall perception because the journey to get to the destination does impact how you perceive it.

Well, they did that for this expansion & everyone hated it. Complete with hiding all the relevant character motivations in a book. So I'd say that take is 100% wrong.

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A tree with a crapton of civilians on it. But hey, details.

So it really is quantity over quality. 30 is fine but 100 is unforgivable. Where is Tyrande's cutoff?

[Vakir]

Sylvanas isn't dead either. Undead /= dead.

It just seems like a big plothole for Tyrande to be like, "This is Maiev, she murdered a bunch of my friends & was tricked into helping Ragnaros try to burn the world: She is my best friend" and "This is Sylvanas, she burned a tree which can never be forgiven"

Tyrande and Maiev aren't super close either. The latter also resents the former for Illidan.

Sylvanas gets the exception because she's way more complicit in those specific souls and also because the character needs to be put on ice.

Well, they did that for this expansion & everyone hated it. Complete with hiding all the relevant character motivations in a book. So I'd say that take is 100% wrong.

What a ridiculous take, and you know it. I'm talking about in the context of the game itself, but learning it when playing through the game on Live. I don't think supplementary materials are the answer either.

But again, you know that. That's not an honest read of what I said at all and the problem is you know it. Encryptions on the PTR aren't the same thing as releasing the motivation for your anti-villain 4 years after their motivation started in a book.

Also I have to add that there have been very limited instances when the outcry over the story was so severe that minor changes were made in the PTR. First with Alliance in the patch before SoO then with Tyrande in the Night Warrior questline in BfA (early on she was even wimpier). Ofc what they can do is extremely limited.

They tried to, anyway. But I still believe they deserve to have that pushback and ill will. I don't think messing with the Val'kyr and health percentages made anything any better storytelling wise and it was, at best, a bandaid.

[Marlamin]

Well, they did that for this expansion & everyone hated it. Complete with hiding all the relevant character motivations in a book. So I'd say that take is 100% wrong.

They tried to*, it didn't go very well as a lot of stuff was still datamined.

[Revamp Man]

Now that was one weird character turn. In one book they work within the existing character and make her question Tyrande's decision to bring arcane mages and taking vigilante action against them (entirely in character) and then they realize they ruined the character by taking her fully into villain territory so in Legion they just "forget" all that and say she was just temporarily insane. Because obviously they wanted her to interact with Illidan. It is moments like this that make me feel STUPID for being a fan of Warcraft's lore because the people in charge of it are clearly never going to prioritize the lore over giving an "epic" moment or moving forward with their narrative goal. The lore be damned. Which inevitably ends with people being disillusioned and caring less or just being constantly angry about it.

Is it wrong to say the lines with her and illidaniel were a bit flirty?

[Ersula]

They tried to*, it didn't go very well as a lot of stuff was still datamined.

All I'm hearing is there's a lot of problems with WoW's writing but fans who want spoilers datamining spoilers isn't one of them.

Tyrande and Maiev aren't super close either. The latter also resents the former for Illidan.

Lol. Maiev came to the Shadowlands for Tyrande's "emotional support". Her f*cking husband didn't even do that.

That's not an honest read of what I said at all and the problem is you know it. Encryptions on the PTR aren't the same thing as releasing the motivation for your anti-villain 4 years after their motivation started in a book.

I said what I said: I think they're both a symptom of the same mentality: That they'll reveal all the relevant information at the very last moment it matters & that will somehow improve the experience for the audience but that just isn't true. Being cagey with story details is hurting the experience, not improving it.

Hiding as much of the story behind encryption as possible, giving the Jailer a motivation the moment he dies & hiding all of Sylvanas' characterization in a book both all have the same underlying writing philosophy fueling those decisions & I think it's a bad one.

[Vakir]

They tried to*, it didn't go very well as a lot of stuff was still datamined.

Even what was datamined had nothing to do with the book or any of the motivations of said character.

It's just blatant trolling at this point.

All I'm hearing is there's a lot of problems with WoW's writing but fans datamining spoilers isn't one of them.

Lol. Maiev came to the Shadowlands for Tyrande's "emotional support". Her f*cking husband didn't even do that.

I mean, that's all you're hearing because you refuse to listen.

Malfurion remains a reliably pretty shit character just like his exhausting wife. Maybe they could only get Debi Mae West in the booth.

[deviantcultist]

That mount was Void, not Twilight.

Even better, though my point is that if they introduce a dragon class, it has to be something more than just barebones dragon fantasy.

[Revamp Man]

If we get them as ARs* I doubt we get anything other than Kyrians, Venthyr, fauns (essentially just draenei) and most likely the small dried up mummies(if we are lucky maybe the bulky ones). If we go by ARs filling in niches and getting sponsored by existing races, we pretty much only have 2 slots left and the mummies and fauns pretty much fit those remaining sponsors best. The necrolords could teach the forsaken how to better conserve their bodies and find easier replacements while the fauns could just hug the trees together with the nelves.

*(Even though I'm against it, the lore has been violated enough already, it's time to stop.)

Necrolords based on the worgen skeleton
Kyrian based on human
Night fae based on…no clue
Still have the undead for something I doubt Venthyr

They probably are going to bring in sanlayn for the 10 flavors of elf

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Even better, though my point is that if they introduce a dragon class, it has to be something more than just barebones dragon fantasy.

You mean more than the main dragon groups?
I don’t see that happening simply because of the story but I’m also biased and want the fake Talonguard to be a thing

[Marlamin]

Even what was datamined had nothing to do with the book or any of the motivations of said character.
It's just blatant trolling at this point.

Yep, guess so. Was going well until this point though! We probably got to a new record of useful posts/arguments before it devolved. Progress is progress!