Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Marlamin]

Blizzard needs to get it in their head that the only people following the PTR actually WANT spoilers.

In my opinion, a lot of people might want spoilers but none of them actually deserve spoilers.

[Fahrad Wagner]

In my opinion, a lot of people might want spoilers but none of them actually deserve spoilers.

I second the birb on that. Especially when you see the instant toxic reaction of some people in the community to ANYTHING added to the game, especially in the early stages. Feedback is of course required, and essential (especially if it prevents Blizzard from going in the wrong direction), but way too often it's not even constructive.

[Ersula]

In my opinion, a lot of people might want spoilers but none of them actually deserve spoilers.

Corporate Blizzard: We're not here for a long time, but we are here for a bad time.

[Marlamin]

I second the birb on that. Especially when you see the instant toxic reaction of some people in the community to ANYTHING added to the game, especially in the early stages. Feedback is of course required, and essential (especially if it prevents Blizzard from going in the wrong direction), but way too often it's not even constructive.

Yeah. Testing and feedback is important as the recent PTR phases have shown, but at the same time I think anything story related shouldn't be available/tested on PTRs nor is it something Blizzard should be seeking/accepting feedback for (at least not at the point where it's already on PTR).

[bagina]

In my opinion, a lot of people might want spoilers but none of them actually deserve spoilers.

No such thing. Spoilers are a blessing. They save us from disappointment. I'm thankful for every leak.

[Marlamin]

No such thing. Spoilers are a blessing. They save us from disappointment. I'm thankful for every leak.

It can be both, not deserving to know story beats before you're supposed to but still getting excited/thankful about it when you do aren't mutually exclusive.

[Fahrad Wagner]

Yeah. Testing and feedback is important as the recent PTR phases have shown, but at the same time I think anything story related shouldn't be available/tested on PTRs nor is it something Blizzard should be seeking/accepting feedback for (at least not at the point where it's already on PTR).

I do agree with you, but not entirely: I'd be ok with that if Blizzard was capable of completely keeping track of their own lore, however, BfA and SL had many small examples of them scr*wing up on that and forgetting their own lore. Through Beta and PTR, there were also things that were fixed because the community stepped in and asked them to correct it (lorewise that is)

So yeah, I agree with you that story related spoilers should be left out of testing... but again, can we trust Blizzard with that? With patches going on a full PTR cycle, they still go live with bugs (thankfully not as often now as before but still), what would happen for something that was not tested on PTR? That would imply they switch to a strictly internal testing model for some parts of the games, and I guess that's more resources used for that rather than used elsewhere? I don't really know how those things get organised in the gaming industry.

This is difficult, on one hand I'd like it to happen, on the other I'm not trusting them entirely.

[Cosmic Janitor]

I want Covenant ARs so bad.

faeries pls

Not even a snowball's chance in hell that you'd get those. You'd get the goats at best, you also won't get the awsome gargoyles or the necro-liches.

[Ersula]

It can be both, not deserving to know story beats before you're supposed to but still getting excited/thankful about it when you do aren't mutually exclusive.

That absolutely isn't true, but mainly because the effort put into the devs being more secretive has increased while at the same time the quality of the plot has been declining.

[Khaza-R]

Not even a snowball's chance in hell that you'd get those. You'd get the goats at best, you also won't get the awsome gargoyles or the necro-liches.

I hate the thought of Shadowlands ARs but the part of me that love making troll characters wishes we got them. I would spend all my time in WM on a rogue named Sparkleshank just ruining people's day.

[Marlamin]

I do agree with you, but not entirely: I'd be ok with that if Blizzard was capable of completely keeping track of their own lore, however, BfA and SL had many small examples of them scr*wing up on that and forgetting their own lore. Through Beta and PTR, there were also things that were fixed because the community stepped in and asked them to correct it (lorewise that is)

So yeah, I agree with you that story related spoilers should be left out of testing... but again, can we trust Blizzard with that? With patches going on a full PTR cycle, they still go live with bugs (thankfully not as often now as before but still), what would happen for something that was not tested on PTR? That would imply they switch to a heavily internal testing model.

This is difficult, on one hand I'd like it to happen, on the other I'm not trusting them entirely.

I'd say that's a perfectly fair way of looking at it. My biggest gripe with spoilers in WoW (and as such on PTR) is that they're usually not experienced through the game or official channels but experienced through third parties, be it sites like MMOC/Wowhead or on YouTubers who are by definition in it for the money. Blizzard has gotten into the habit of releasing cinematics on YouTube the moment they go live so that's a good move in that department at least, but my opinion remains for now.

I fully understand that those who care a lot about the lore don't want Blizzard to mess it up in any way (moreso than they already have going off what I read here now and then), but I think story feedback is something Blizzard listens to the least in the short-termness of PTR so I wouldn't mind it disappearing from PTR entirely.

It's slightly different for Beta where there's a longer period of being able to rework things, but for PTR it is usually too late the moment it goes up unless it's something that can be fixed by taking out dialogue and/or changing some text.

That absolutely isn't true, but mainly because the effort put into the devs being more secretive has increased while at the same time the quality of the plot has been declining.

I don't think that's related to the point I made nor is the secretiveness something that started at the same time the plot "started declining", unless that means Wrath/Cataclysm in which case it's been declining for over 10-14 years now.

The secretiveness mainly went up as datamining spoilers became more accessible, popular and mainstream. With the increasing importance of cinematics and actual story beats in Wrath they started encrypting/timegating them in Cataclysm. They've been working on making things more hidden and encrypted ever since then. MoP iterated on this even more, then WoD, Legion, etc. etc. It's pretty much just been an arms race between Blizzard and datamining.

If Blizzard called a halt to datamining back then either by severely punishing those going after it or putting effort into encrypting everything (or both), we wouldn't have the secretiveness we have today. It'd be terrible for some parts of the community, but the spoiler culture around WoW wouldn't exist as it does today.

[huth]

Blizzard needs to get it in their head that the only people following the PTR actually WANT spoilers.

People want a lot of things that aren't good for them. So what? That's no reason to give it to them.

[Local Ardenweald Faerie]

I hate the thought of Shadowlands ARs but the part of me that love making troll characters wishes we got them. I would spend all my time in WM on a rogue named Sparkleshank just ruining people's day.

Now you know why I want Ardenweald faeries as a allied race beyond just liking them a lot.

[keygy]

about covenant at 10.0...why people think that WoW without Rental powers gonna be the fix that the game really need? like if you introduce MoP or Cata right now, the people gonna complain a lot because of content, like when this expansions was launched the mental and priorities of people playing MMO in general was different than how is it right now for us.

If you remove rental powers right now you create a gameplay hole really BIG, right now rental power like covenants(the 9.2 version ofc) give us a really good gameplay changes and versatility, hell i think i like it the actual covenant system better than others rental powers from legion or BFA.

If you remove this, you need to add something new, but if we are going to go for the route of removing rental powers, you need to attach something that is not rental, basically you need to add something that persist through the expansion and that can create sometype of gameplay changes to the classes, the question is..blizzard gonna do this? depends on devs and if they know what are the problems with wow right now;

Rental power:

- keep but decrease the impact in the gameplay: dont like this option, because making systems go "dull or mediocre" for the sake of fixing the problem i dont think its a good idea.

- Remove rental powers: as i said before this can be very good or fucking bad, depends a lot of devs if they sufficient crazy to create something awesome and persistent to the classes not the expansion.


"green content":

- One of the problems that causes the hard drop of people in each patch is that outside of m+, pvp and pve, there is nothing literal, farming achievments, pets etc.. but the game needs more content outside of the pillars of the game on endgame, SOMETHING that can do people that dont like endgame to play the game, housing, sometype of minigames whatever, this part is the most hard one because i can't imagine what we need to be honest, im a endgame player, and this content for me is irrelevant, but i know is necessary for the game.


There are other problems like remodeling m+ in some way, loot, etc..but i dont think are that bad right now as the other two.

[Marlamin]

"green content":

- One of the problems that causes the hard drop of people in each patch is that outside of m+, pvp and pve, there is nothing literal, farming achievments, pets etc.. but the game needs more content outside of the pillars of the game on endgame, SOMETHING that can do people that dont like endgame to play the game, housing, sometype of minigames whatever, this part is the most hard one because i can't imagine what we need to be honest, im a endgame player, and this content for me is irrelevant, but i know is necessary for the game.


There are other problems like remodeling m+ in some way, loot, etc..but i dont think are that bad right now as the other two.

I'm actually hoping their new experimental gameplay team was founded based on some sort of idea they'll hopefully start exploring in 10.0 that isn't borrowed power for a single expansion. It's obviously a big "dose of hopium" but I hope that Blizzard has finally figured out that borrowed power (and by extension garrison systems) is something they've gotten away with a few too many times now.

[Fahrad Wagner]

I'm actually hoping their new experimental gameplay team was founded based on some sort of idea they'll hopefully start exploring in 10.0 that isn't borrowed power for a single expansion. It's obviously a big "dose of hopium" but I hope that Blizzard has finally figured out that borrowed power is something they've gotten away with a few too many times now.

It's my hope as well, although I think it will probably end up being completely unrelated to WoW...

[Marlamin]

It's my hope as well, although I think it will probably end up being completely unrelated to WoW...

It is a sub team of the WoW team as per this job posting, so I'm still hopeful.

[Ersula]

I don't think that's related to the point I made nor is the secretiveness something that started at the same time the plot "started declining", unless that means Wrath/Cataclysm in which case it's been declining for over 10-14 years now.

The secretiveness mainly went up as datamining spoilers became more accessible, popular and mainstream. With the increasing importance of cinematics and actual story beats in Wrath they started encrypting/timegating them in Cataclysm. They've been working on making things more hidden and encrypted ever since then. MoP iterated on this even more, then WoD, Legion, etc. etc. It's pretty much just been an arms race between Blizzard and datamining.

But the question is why? Why fight datamining at all?

And you're not picking up on the big difference between encrypting a raid finale, which they've always done, which everyone is accustomed to: And what they're doing now, which is encrypting much more minor details, and refusing to start publicly testing those things until they're nearly done: Wrath alpha went live before any of the new zones were playable: Compare that to now, where they're waiting till everything is a complete product to reveal it to the public.

Encrypting cinematics: Okay. Fine.

Encrypting quest dialog? Encrypting music? Encrypting pets & mounts? Wtf? Do you actively hate the content creators covering your game?

One thing it does is let them do is feign ignorance: "Well, we were too far along by the time of testing to do anything about that" is become an increasingly popular response to their negative feedback.

[Ferlion]

This kind of post comes around often in this community, whether or not it be on Reddit, Twitter or here in the hype thread. I have some opinions on posts like this and seeing I'm parting ways with the community anyways what better time than this to share said opinions.

I don't think this way of binary thinking/exaggeration is constructive to this thread, the community or the game in general. Classifying people as either defenders or haters isn't and has never been helpful in the slightest. Nor do I think have I seen anyone actually saying BfA and Shadowlands have been "fucking great and amazing".

The implication that Activision Blizzard, and soon to be Microsoft, being a huge company makes them not care about the game isn't fair at all as there's many other companies/studios, even those that are now part of Microsoft, that still care about their games. WoW might not be as big of a priority for the company as it used to be, but it is also a very old game at this point and the amount of resources they're still sticking into it surprises me (which is not neccesarily a good thing).

As for listening to player feedback, Blizzard has listened to various things over the course of this expansion, most of which were listed by Dracullus here. Whether or not they listened to the right things, enough things or even made the right decisions based on feedback is definitely up for debate.

There is also the widely-hated Community Council (which for transparency reasons I am a member of), whether or not it is a PR move and whether or not it is helping, which has been shining a light on certain issues, some of which have been answered with actual changes. In my opinion it is still something they're not utilizing enough or even handling correctly, but 10.0 Alpha/Beta will cast the final verdict on the council (for me) as that is when the answers to most of the feedback would show up or (what people are expecting) end up being ignored.

The game has a very passionate fanbase, most of which have spent many years playing and caring about the game. I understand that when things aren't as fun as they used to be, or when you feel like Blizzard is actively destroying something you love about it (e.g. lore) it sucks to have invested so much time into something and it ending up like that. Shadowlands definitely hasn't been as fun compared to previous expansions for me either, with the exclusion of some of the alt-friendly changes they've done and Torghast (which I enjoyed right up to the current ilvl wall casuals like me cant climb over).

Anyways, end of rant, sorry for the arguably off-topic post but I needed to get this out of my brain.

Blizzard is malicious about it. Or at least intentional. But I'm fairly certain it's malicious.

You don't follow the lore, exactly.. So I'll give you that. But in many cases, Blizzard is ACTIVELY malicious about it.

I'll give a recent example, because honestly I'm checked out enough to not keep catalogues or lists and I was never that type of guy anyway. Seems creepy.

Tyrande and Sylvanas. The entire judgement there. It was, more or less, what a lot of the fanbase knew what was going to happen. Now, I can go on jokey semi serious rants about why it's a stupid judgement and doesn't make sense lore wise (not the least of which is the glaring omission that hasn't been mentioned in all of Shadowlands that the souls rotting in the Maw are the Kyrian's fault more than Sylvanas.)

But that isn't the biggest issue. They brought in Maiev. Maiev is the most rigid black and white justice character in the franchise. Her whole deal is Paladinesque zealotry. One of the constant refrains is "Maiev should be the leader of the Night Elves, she wouldn't put up with that, she'd not be soft, she'd give a real punishment, or end him or whatever the case of the day is".

So they bring this character in, who has no reason to be in Shadowlands. At all. She hasn't shown up once. But they bring her in, have her sit by, not act like the character, and give her click on dialogue that is so contrary to the character that it's actively made people laugh out loud over how out of character it is (at least on my end of things, as a member of a fairly old school lore discord). In fact, they've used her to voice approval of how the punishment was handled. With no reason to do it EXCEPT the people saying "yeah, this is how Maiev would handle this"

I get you may not have the context, and that seems fairly minor, but it's a lot of things like that built up through the years. Monkey paw situations and the like.

I don't think it's accurate to say Blizzard doesn't like the game and it's just a money stream. I still play, and enjoy the actual gameplay itself.

But Blizzard is not just fumbling around and messing up at every turn. They actively try and piss their customers off.

[keygy]

It is a sub team of the WoW team as per this job posting, so I'm still hopeful.

i hope too, im not a hater of rental powers but i do think we need something new.