Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Nymrohd]

Even if you look at it from the POV that datamining story content earlier would mean more feedback to change it, I'd argue that 1. If the artist needs to write by community committee by that point, maybe they aren't half as talented as they think they are or need to be and 2. Maybe the negative reception they ate needs to be suffered to learn how to pull their heads out of their asses.

Also I have to add that there have been very limited instances when the outcry over the story was so severe that minor changes were made in the PTR. First with Alliance in the patch before SoO then with Tyrande in the Night Warrior questline in BfA (early on she was even wimpier). Ofc what they can do is extremely limited.

[Ersula]

Story has absolutely no reason to not be as encrypted as is possible. Context does matter for the end result or the overall perception because the journey to get to the destination does impact how you perceive it.

Well, they did that for this expansion & everyone hated it. Complete with hiding all the relevant character motivations in a book. So I'd say that take is 100% wrong.

- - - Updated - - -

A tree with a crapton of civilians on it. But hey, details.

So it really is quantity over quality. 30 is fine but 100 is unforgivable. Where is Tyrande's cutoff?

[Vakir]

Sylvanas isn't dead either. Undead /= dead.

It just seems like a big plothole for Tyrande to be like, "This is Maiev, she murdered a bunch of my friends & was tricked into helping Ragnaros try to burn the world: She is my best friend" and "This is Sylvanas, she burned a tree which can never be forgiven"

Tyrande and Maiev aren't super close either. The latter also resents the former for Illidan.

Sylvanas gets the exception because she's way more complicit in those specific souls and also because the character needs to be put on ice.

Well, they did that for this expansion & everyone hated it. Complete with hiding all the relevant character motivations in a book. So I'd say that take is 100% wrong.

What a ridiculous take, and you know it. I'm talking about in the context of the game itself, but learning it when playing through the game on Live. I don't think supplementary materials are the answer either.

But again, you know that. That's not an honest read of what I said at all and the problem is you know it. Encryptions on the PTR aren't the same thing as releasing the motivation for your anti-villain 4 years after their motivation started in a book.

Also I have to add that there have been very limited instances when the outcry over the story was so severe that minor changes were made in the PTR. First with Alliance in the patch before SoO then with Tyrande in the Night Warrior questline in BfA (early on she was even wimpier). Ofc what they can do is extremely limited.

They tried to, anyway. But I still believe they deserve to have that pushback and ill will. I don't think messing with the Val'kyr and health percentages made anything any better storytelling wise and it was, at best, a bandaid.

[Marlamin]

Well, they did that for this expansion & everyone hated it. Complete with hiding all the relevant character motivations in a book. So I'd say that take is 100% wrong.

They tried to*, it didn't go very well as a lot of stuff was still datamined.

[Revamp Man]

Now that was one weird character turn. In one book they work within the existing character and make her question Tyrande's decision to bring arcane mages and taking vigilante action against them (entirely in character) and then they realize they ruined the character by taking her fully into villain territory so in Legion they just "forget" all that and say she was just temporarily insane. Because obviously they wanted her to interact with Illidan. It is moments like this that make me feel STUPID for being a fan of Warcraft's lore because the people in charge of it are clearly never going to prioritize the lore over giving an "epic" moment or moving forward with their narrative goal. The lore be damned. Which inevitably ends with people being disillusioned and caring less or just being constantly angry about it.

Is it wrong to say the lines with her and illidaniel were a bit flirty?

[Ersula]

They tried to*, it didn't go very well as a lot of stuff was still datamined.

All I'm hearing is there's a lot of problems with WoW's writing but fans who want spoilers datamining spoilers isn't one of them.

Tyrande and Maiev aren't super close either. The latter also resents the former for Illidan.

Lol. Maiev came to the Shadowlands for Tyrande's "emotional support". Her f*cking husband didn't even do that.

That's not an honest read of what I said at all and the problem is you know it. Encryptions on the PTR aren't the same thing as releasing the motivation for your anti-villain 4 years after their motivation started in a book.

I said what I said: I think they're both a symptom of the same mentality: That they'll reveal all the relevant information at the very last moment it matters & that will somehow improve the experience for the audience but that just isn't true. Being cagey with story details is hurting the experience, not improving it.

Hiding as much of the story behind encryption as possible, giving the Jailer a motivation the moment he dies & hiding all of Sylvanas' characterization in a book both all have the same underlying writing philosophy fueling those decisions & I think it's a bad one.

[Vakir]

They tried to*, it didn't go very well as a lot of stuff was still datamined.

Even what was datamined had nothing to do with the book or any of the motivations of said character.

It's just blatant trolling at this point.

All I'm hearing is there's a lot of problems with WoW's writing but fans datamining spoilers isn't one of them.

Lol. Maiev came to the Shadowlands for Tyrande's "emotional support". Her f*cking husband didn't even do that.

I mean, that's all you're hearing because you refuse to listen.

Malfurion remains a reliably pretty shit character just like his exhausting wife. Maybe they could only get Debi Mae West in the booth.

[deviantcultist]

That mount was Void, not Twilight.

Even better, though my point is that if they introduce a dragon class, it has to be something more than just barebones dragon fantasy.

[Revamp Man]

If we get them as ARs* I doubt we get anything other than Kyrians, Venthyr, fauns (essentially just draenei) and most likely the small dried up mummies(if we are lucky maybe the bulky ones). If we go by ARs filling in niches and getting sponsored by existing races, we pretty much only have 2 slots left and the mummies and fauns pretty much fit those remaining sponsors best. The necrolords could teach the forsaken how to better conserve their bodies and find easier replacements while the fauns could just hug the trees together with the nelves.

*(Even though I'm against it, the lore has been violated enough already, it's time to stop.)

Necrolords based on the worgen skeleton
Kyrian based on human
Night fae based on…no clue
Still have the undead for something I doubt Venthyr

They probably are going to bring in sanlayn for the 10 flavors of elf

- - - Updated - - -

Even better, though my point is that if they introduce a dragon class, it has to be something more than just barebones dragon fantasy.

You mean more than the main dragon groups?
I don’t see that happening simply because of the story but I’m also biased and want the fake Talonguard to be a thing

[Marlamin]

Even what was datamined had nothing to do with the book or any of the motivations of said character.
It's just blatant trolling at this point.

Yep, guess so. Was going well until this point though! We probably got to a new record of useful posts/arguments before it devolved. Progress is progress!

[SniperCT]

Well, they did that for this expansion & everyone hated it. Complete with hiding all the relevant character motivations in a book. So I'd say that take is 100% wrong.

- - - Updated - - -


So it really is quantity over quality. 30 is fine but 100 is unforgivable. Where is Tyrande's cutoff?

considering they repeatedly stress it was a genocide and that night elf numbers were decimated and there were 'far too few' left, I'd say yeah, way more unforgivable than a bit of serial killing

[Hitei]

considering they repeatedly stress it was a genocide and that night elf numbers were decimated and there were 'far too few' left, I'd say yeah, way more unforgivable than a bit of serial killing

A tree with a crapton of civilians on it. But hey, details.

I don't know why people still bother responding to someone who has unironically used the argument "the elves were too old, so burning them alive wasn't murder, it was just assisted euthanasia" multiple times.

[ChairmanKaga]

That mount was Void, not Twilight.

I thought it was from Twilight eggs left near Nzoth to soak up voidy goodness. I also forgot the Storm drakes from Broken Isles. If nothing else I wouldn't mind seeing some of these groups expanded upon in Dragonflight. The "engineered" flights like Chromatic and Twilight maybe even Netherwing. It would be interesting to see them trying to become more than what they were created for by Deathwing etc.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

A tree with a crapton of civilians on it. But hey, details.

Honestly, I actually do think the whole "tree-burning" thing isn't the frontline for me—for me the real issue was that after the victims of the genocide died, they were also sent to hell to have some of their souls obliterated. I consider that to be arguably worse than murder since it destroys the consciousness of the entity, whereas an entity that is allowed to remain in a normal, functional afterlife is conscious forever. I think that the whole genocide bit frankly pales relative to then proceeding to remove the opportunity of your victims to go to a proper afterlife.

Essentially, the consciousness is the most important part of an entity—if an entity weren't conscious, murder would be completely excusable because there is no one for it to harm. Even diminished intelligence by virtue of an inherently more primitive brain and lack of a soul can justify killing and even eating animals, which further emphasizes the role of consciousness in determining the value of a living thing. Consequently, if the reason to prevent murder is to defend the consciousness from forced removal from its current state of being, then destroying the consciousness itself would have to be an even greater transgression since it's destroying the thing that even murder only would remove from this world or otherwise upset.

[Ersula]

considering they repeatedly stress it was a genocide and that night elf numbers were decimated and there were 'far too few' left, I'd say yeah, way more unforgivable than a bit of serial killing

But this isn't a matter of forgiveness, it's specifically that Maiev is who's shoulder Tyrande goes to for comfort: The other murderer of night elves. The visual hypocrisy of her making that ugly, hateful face to Sylvanas while standing next to the one person who has "darnassian mass murder 2nd place" award.

It's silly.

[Ferlion]

All I'm hearing is there's a lot of problems with WoW's writing but fans who want spoilers datamining spoilers isn't one of them.

Lol. Maiev came to the Shadowlands for Tyrande's "emotional support". Her f*cking husband didn't even do that.

I said what I said: I think they're both a symptom of the same mentality: That they'll reveal all the relevant information at the very last moment it matters & that will somehow improve the experience for the audience but that just isn't true. Being cagey with story details is hurting the experience, not improving it.

Hiding as much of the story behind encryption as possible, giving the Jailer a motivation the moment he dies & hiding all of Sylvanas' characterization in a book both all have the same underlying writing philosophy fueling those decisions & I think it's a bad one.

In defense of Marlamin... I actually somewhat agree with him. I'm not happy with Blizzard and their treatment with lore, but I also think that spoils or not, they are received differently than when playing the game.

I think that with spoilers or PTR lore stuff, things are actively looked at through a certain lens that turns the conversation into an echo chamber of negativity that then alters the context of a scene when you first play through it.

[Vakir]

I said what I said: I think they're both a symptom of the same mentality: That they'll reveal all the relevant information at the very last moment it matters & that will somehow improve the experience for the audience but that just isn't true. Being cagey with story details is hurting the experience, not improving it.

Giving the Jailer a motivation the moment he dies & hiding all of Sylvanas' characterization in a book both have the same underlying writing philosophy fueling those decisions & I think it's a bad one.

But that's not even tangentially related to the problem with datamining. That's a problem with storytelling quality and structure.

The Jailer giving his motivation when he dies is a function of the story's structure being awful. The Jailer gives his motivation as he dies whether we get the cutscene 6 weeks early via datamining or the moment he dies via the cutscene playing. Either way is bad, and either way is a story dead-end and unsatisfying. But that's because the story sucks.

My point is that there are SOME very niche situations where the story might not be as poor, which is a rarity in SL as a whole, but it's still influenced by getting it early datamined.

Same with Sylvanas' characterization. If someone we were able to get all of Sylvanas' lines for 9.0 through 9.2, all at once, magically despite not being recorded, the very moment the damn Alpha dropped, it wouldn't change that the answer would still be "read the book." It's completely irrelevant to the discussion.

So they're deeply unrelated problems. You said what you said, but only so much by the virtue that your fingers happened to hit the keys and you continued to not think about what you were saying with no actual consequences - due to a lack of any intellectual shame or self-awareness.

[Makabreska]

I don't know why people still bother responding to someone who has unironically used the argument "the elves were too old, so burning them alive wasn't murder, it was just assisted euthanasia" multiple times.

Oh, just like in political threads, we wait for said person to loose it at some point. Also, bullshit should be opposed.

[Ferlion]

I'd also like to add in that I think the conversation of spoilers has ultimately changed in the last few expansions. Blizzard has actively changed how they tell a story and seem to be very big on "We are going to tease something without ever giving a solid answer".. BFA and Shadowlands especially that has seemed unbearable.

I personally think this is a massive mistake. Blizzard intentionally tried to hide everything for this story as a "Will she/won't she" and "look how interesting and mysterious this story is" but it ultimately just made people angry.

It's very odd dealing with a story in WoW where spoilers actually matter.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

But this isn't a matter of forgiveness, it's specifically that Maiev is who's shoulder Tyrande goes to for comfort: The other murderer of night elves. The visual hypocrisy of her making that ugly, hateful face to Sylvanas while standing next to the one person who has "darnassian mass murder 2nd place" award.

It's silly.

Genocide is clearly morally-equivalent to ~20 murders tops. Strong comparison there.