Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Nymrohd]

Another thing worth mentioning is that the code in the JS is written the exact same way as the code for Shadowlands.

It also includes store information. Product IDs and such. Why would they put a mobile game on their online store (which is usually only accessed via PC)?

I think I'm dropping the chances of it being a mobile game all the way down to 0%. I just don't see it happening now that I think about it.

Your sarcasm detector must be really broken

[Syegfryed]

Scarlet is an example of bad people who abuse the Light due to demon manipulation. The Light is not the villain in this story.

That is what im saying. Light is not good or bad, is just "lawful", a lawful force can be good, neutral or evil depending on many factors(people using it, quantity, how is used...).

And even as lawful good, it can still do evil things/commit atrocities, if they think, in their conception, is good. Thats why i think an expansion with Light as villain is totally ok.

I see wow cosmology like this:

[ercarp]

Your sarcasm detector must be really broken

Nope. I was just elaborating further on the general point that it could be a mobile game. A "dragon flight simulator" is obviously a joke.

[Nymrohd]

[*]Quel'thalas leaves the Horde, because of the fragmentation happening among the Forsaken and Sylvanas no longer acting as a link to the remaining races on the Horde. Sin'dorei and Ren'dorei can still access the city through secret enclaves. Their primary charge as they see it now lies in protecting the Sunwell from those who would seek to claim and abuse its powers.[*]Gilneas leaves the Alliance, because Genn doesn't see eye to eye with the new king Turalyon. The nobles of Stormwind want to launch a crusade to reclaim the north, commanded by Turalyon. Genn has learned from Anduin and wants peace for his people and the chance to rebuild.

Wait what? Sorry but the Blood Elves have no reason to leave the Horde, especially in its new form. There is no advantage to doing that and with no Warchief to compel them to any action they'd rather not take, nothing to lose by staying with them. Far too much bad blood with the Alliance to go that way either.
Genn opposing Turalyon in taking back the North??? His people are against homeless refugees in SW with the destruction of Darnassus and he always wanted to claim Gilneas back. The Alliance already has a foothold in the Lordaeron with Stromgarde. Most of the Forsaken have moved out. I really don't see it.

[Chickat]

Kel'thuzad was never in Revendreth. He was sent directly to Maldraxxus due to his high ambitions he had in life, one of the requirements to be sent there (as explained by Vashj).

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Demons respawn is kill after we defeated Argus.

Not true. All Argus did was act as a battery to speed the resserection of demons up. Thats where they naturally go. It just normally takes longer. Argus made it nearly instant.

[Nymrohd]

I don't think Genn will oppose rebuilding Gilneas. But I don't think he wants an all-out invasion of the north. He was there at the Battle of the Undercity during the Fourth War, and he has learned from Anduin that sometimes peace is the best way.

Peace with whom? Who would they be at war with?

[Zharikov]

Not true. All Argus did was act as a battery to speed the resserection of demons up. Thats where they naturally go. It just normally takes longer. Argus made it nearly instant.

A battery and a beacon, specifically. Before, they all resurrected on Argus, powered by his life force. Now they respawn scattered in the Nether, returned to the disorder and chaos natural for their realm.

[Syegfryed]

I think the Sunwell will become key.

It'll be an important power source of the Light, which many of these warring factions will want to claim to use in rebuilding their own power.

More reason to not allow void corrupted elves nearby and not leave the horde?

Like, if people want to take the sunwell why they would ditch the support and manpower of the horde?

But the Quel'dorei will be like "Eff you, we're shutting our gates and using the well's power to rebuild Silvermoon."

Are you following the game? quel'dorei, per se, don't exist anymore, second, the blood elves have no power to say or do that, they are an almost extinct race, yes they show a lot because fanservice, but they can't defend alone.

[Nymrohd]

A battery and a beacon, specifically. Before, they all resurrected on Argus, powered by his life force. Now they respawn scattered in the Nether, returned to the disorder and chaos natural for their realm.

Legion really had the potential to subtly introduce Zovaal and make us reconsider the Nathrezim.

[Super Dickmann]

Legion really had the potential to subtly introduce Zovaal and make us reconsider the Nathrezim.

What, a single line from Varimathras and another from Gul'dan wasn't enough setup for you? Getting greedy here, are we?

The dreadlord retcon had the potential to easily solve the biggest logical sinkhole at the Legion climax. I.e why a single ship is somehow able to gain access to and contest the entire universe-spanning apparat of the Legion who's fleet we see deployed towards Azeroth in the very skybox accomplish nothing. Namely by revealing that our entry into all of the core points was deliberate sabotage and the Legion not catching up with the ship was the dreadlords on one end coordinating with Lothraxion, but alas.

[Raetary]

https://twitter.com/Marlamin/status/1278404185222983685

This, @Marlamin?

I think this isn't in-game anywhere. I'd totally imagine this in an Emerald dragon zone.

I'm disappointed that the frogduck is more frog than it is duck.

[Nymrohd]

What, a single line from Varimathras and another from Gul'dan wasn't enough setup for you? Getting greedy here, are we?

The dreadlord retcon had the potential to easily solve the biggest logical sinkhole at the Legion climax. I.e why a single ship is somehow able to gain access to and contest the entire universe-spanning apparat of the Legion who's fleet we see deployed towards Azeroth in the very skybox accomplish nothing. Namely by revealing that our entry into all of the core points was deliberate sabotage and the Legion not catching up with the ship was the dreadlords on one end coordinating with Lothraxion, but alas.

Would also explain how Zovaal knew we'd win against the Legion. Though even with substantial sabotage it still shouldn't have been that easy. Imo it would have been even better if more than the Light had shown up on Argus at about the same time that we did.

Really the story they wanted to tell could be told so, so much more competently.

[Makorus]

What, a single line from Varimathras and another from Gul'dan wasn't enough setup for you? Getting greedy here, are we?

The dreadlord retcon had the potential to easily solve the biggest logical sinkhole at the Legion climax. I.e why a single ship is somehow able to gain access to and contest the entire universe-spanning apparat of the Legion who's fleet we see deployed towards Azeroth in the very skybox accomplish nothing. Namely by revealing that our entry into all of the core points was deliberate sabotage and the Legion not catching up with the ship was the dreadlords on one end coordinating with Lothraxion, but alas.

Is it really that bad though? 7.3 happened near enough straight after 7.2, I would imagine most of the BL forces are scattered in the space between Argus and Azeroth, which we bypassed through the portal, and the BL has no leadership anyway because we just took out their commander.

The Vindicaar never actually came too close to Antorus anyway, not until after we beat the High Command, or the Worldbreaker, which probably were the biggest issues for the Vindicaar.

You have to remember that yeah, Antorus was the stronghold of the Burning Legion, but by the time we get there, the Burning Legion is already crumbling.

[Super Dickmann]

Would also explain how Zovaal knew we'd win against the Legion. Though even with substantial sabotage it still shouldn't have been that easy. Imo it would have been even better if more than the Light had shown up on Argus at about the same time that we did.

Really the story they wanted to tell could be told so, so much more competently.

Argus in general I've very mixed feelings about. The spectacle is great, the patch itself is a lot better than 7.2 and most bits with Velen were good, Illidan lecturing him about his faith aside. The fact that every recognizable Legion character save Sargeras was already dead means there's no big antagonist though and there's no way to write yourself out of the chasm that is going from barely resisting a fraction of the Legion's forces with the home field advantage to dismantling it in its seat of power within one patch, especially when you neuter your Chekhov's gun in the form of the Army of Light by having it be one (1) ship that crashes 2 minutes in.

There were ways to make it work better on its own, mostly by drastically changing what the Army of Light was and dedicating Mac'aree to it instead of the Shadowguard plot, which while interesting only further diminishes the Legion by having a place that was previously described as being the decadent palatial complexes of the Man'ari be a ruin controlled by a hostile power that the Legion somehow didn't bother exploiting the naaru they had in for 25k years.

As regards Shadowlands' connective tissue though, with Argus as was, the easy changes would be the aforementioned coordination of it, and if you didn't want to go into the fate manipulation and precognition shenanigans the expansion teases but then does nothing with, just have it be that once he reaches a critical amount of death magic in him Argus'd explode. It's not like competing powers exploding when reaching critical mass would be anything new, from the Ashbringer's void crystal with light to Xhul'horac in HFC.

@Makorus

Just in the skybox of 7.3 we see dozens of Legion ships go from Argus towards Azeroth and while the people in Antorus are nobodies created when the writers realized they'd killed every memorable demon already, they're still the Legion's completely functional high command, controlling all their vital infrastructure and have access to the portals to several worlds just from Hasabel's room. The Legion goes from sniping the Xenedar as soon as it flashes over the sky to being unable to contest the Vindicaar well before we put the triforce together and then having it go on a guided tour of their most fortified area to zero real opposition.

If they've an AA turret in the middle of the blasted shithole that is Krokuun and are able to simultaneously invade at least 6 other worlds by the time we're on Argus, you'd think they'd spare a couple for the heart of their main industrial plant.

[Nymrohd]

The war is the war of the North. Lots of different players that didn't learn from the Fourth War, and each seeking the power to rebuild and conquer the continent.

Which is why Gilneas and Quel'thalas won't be aggressors. They were there, and they've learned the lesson that rebuilding and peace is more important than war and dominance.

But the Scarlet Resurgence, a Stormwind with new leadership seeking power (nobility) and to purify with Light (Turalyon), a fragmented Forsaken people, the Amani, and a number of smaller factions like the Void and Infinite flight, could easily set the stage for a new war.

I'm not saying I want any of this btw. In my view, they should just revamp all of KA+EK and have us pick flowers in the sun while dealing with local Gnoll threats for two years.

But based on clues and rumours it kind of feels like things have been set up for a new conflict.

Edit:

Thinking about it further, it could also be that Quel'thalas remains Horde, and are the defenders. While the nobles of Stormwind may have sent their crusade to reclaim Lordaeron, for Turalyon it might be about taking the Sunwell and Quel'thalas in the end. After all, his wife won't stop talking about that. :P

We are getting cross faction. Faction war storylines are not going to be the priority going forward.

[Sondrelk]

Would also explain how Zovaal knew we'd win against the Legion. Though even with substantial sabotage it still shouldn't have been that easy. Imo it would have been even better if more than the Light had shown up on Argus at about the same time that we did.

Really the story they wanted to tell could be told so, so much more competently.

Really it does seem like the story is being written partly on the fly.
Big moments happen as dictated by what has already been set in stone development wise. And retcons happens as the story inevitably comes out and the backlash begins when the story being told ends up seeming rushed and poorly planned out.

Blizzard clearly has good writers. Every expansion has at least one standout zone that has good questing, both in pacing and narrative. They just need to be given some time to properly disentangle the mess they have made of the narrative and start with a somewhat fresh slate.

Have one expansion that has a much weaker overarching narrative, possibly even no overarching villain like what Vanilla had, and the writers could sit back and just tell smaller contained stories that mostly begin and end withing the patch.
Then while doing that they can take their time and consider what future storylines they want to hint at, without needing to fully commit to something like with SL and the Sylvanas redemption that went down like the Hindenburg.

[Nymrohd]

Argus in general I've very mixed feelings about. The spectacle is great, the patch itself is a lot better than 7.2 and most bits with Velen were good, Illidan lecturing him about his faith aside. The fact that every recognizable Legion character save Sargeras was already dead means there's no big antagonist though and there's no way to write yourself out of the chasm that is going from barely resisting a fraction of the Legion's forces with the home field advantage to dismantling it in its seat of power within one patch, especially when you neuter your Chekhov's gun in the form of the Army of Light by having it be one (1) ship that crashes 2 minutes in.

There were ways to make it work better on its own, mostly by drastically changing what the Army of Light was and dedicating Mac'aree to it instead of the Shadowguard plot, which while interesting only further diminishes the Legion by having a place that was previously described as being the decadent palatial complexes of the Man'ari be a ruin controlled by a hostile power that the Legion somehow didn't bother exploiting the naaru they had in for 25k years.

As regards Shadowlands' connective tissue though, with Argus as was, the easy changes would be the aforementioned coordination of it, and if you didn't want to go into the fate manipulation and precognition shenanigans the expansion teases but then does nothing with, just have it be that once he reaches a critical amount of death magic in him Argus'd explode. It's not like competing powers exploding when reaching critical mass would be anything new, from the Ashbringer's void crystal with light to Xhul'horac in HFC.

Honestly Argus should have been an xpac. ToS should have been the end of the Legion invasion and the beginning of our counterattack. I would have loved the mid-xpac raids to actually be about how devastating the invasion was by taking us back to the rest of Azeroth and showing the Legion fucking shit up. Why was the rain of infernals in Thunder Bluff not a scenario? Have Baine DO SOMETHING and defend his home.

And yeah, Eredath could have been made the seat of a Void invasion on Argus instead of a disconnected story meant to introduce Alleria and her void plot.

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Really it does seem like the story is being written partly on the fly.
Big moments happen as dictated by what has already been set in stone development wise. And retcons happens as the story inevitably comes out and the backlash begins when the story being told ends up seeming rushed and poorly planned out.

Blizzard clearly has good writers. Every expansion has at least one standout zone that has good questing, both in pacing and narrative. They just need to be given some time to properly disentangle the mess they have made of the narrative and start with a somewhat fresh slate.

Have one expansion that has a much weaker overarching narrative, possibly even no overarching villain like what Vanilla had, and the writers could sit back and just tell smaller contained stories that mostly begin and end withing the patch.
Then while doing that they can take their time and consider what future storylines they want to hint at, without needing to fully commit to something like with SL and the Sylvanas redemption that went down like the Hindenburg.

I just wonder what the structure of the department is. Cause it just feels like the writers doing the zone work mostly do very good work while whoever is working on the overarching narrative (I'd assume their bosses) is just not as competent, even thought hey work with a much larger budget (the greater storyline gets far more cinematic moments while zone stories at most will get one at the end).

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Also I would have kept the Eredar rulers being a Triumvirate. Imagine if Velen arrived on Argus to find the ruler of the Eredar was . . . his wife! KJ was in charge of infilitration, Archie of brute force but Nuuri would have been in charge of logistics and indoctrination. Give us a strong woman in charge.

[Soulwind]

Guys, slow down, we don't want to get to 2000 before the announcement, do we?!

[therumblings]

Guys, slow down, we don't want to get to 2000 before the announcement, do we?!

If we get more real leaks I can see this hitting 2500 before the reveal

[Sondrelk]

I just wonder what the structure of the department is. Cause it just feels like the writers doing the zone work mostly do very good work while whoever is working on the overarching narrative (I'd assume their bosses) is just not as competent, even thought hey work with a much larger budget (the greater storyline gets far more cinematic moments while zone stories at most will get one at the end).

Imagine you are a new writer starting at Blizzard right as the Sanctum of Domination raid is opening, what is it you would have to do?

Well firstly it's definitely too late to do anything about the ending to the raid, at best you might be able to change a non-critical ability or remove but not replace a voiceline.

So Bluevanas is already a fact at that point, nothing you can do to change it.
You are then further told that a cinematic is already being worked on where Uther aids Bluevanas.
Further you already know that the next patch will be Zereth Mortis, the raid will be the Sepulcher, and the final boss will be the Jailer. The zone is already close to being finalized as the zone developers are being moved to 10.0, and the assets are either already made, or close to being finished by a skeleton crew, so any changes have to be suggested now.

What is the process to fixing the story at this point?
Obviously you cannot salvage the lack of buildup, and Sylvanas' actions, so really it's more a question of how to soften the landing.
Then the raid is complete and players hate Bluevanas.
Then the Uther and Bluevanas cinematic comes out and players hate that too. At this point its obvious that players just hate Sylvanas. However there are also players who love her, so just removing her flatly isn't really possible, not to mention you have a book that is already advertised starring Sylvanas in the lead role.


At this point I think most writers would probably be close to giving up, just doing the bare minimum to make the ending as minimally divisive as possible, then jump to the next expansion and start writing that instead.