Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Nymrohd]

Imagine you are a new writer starting at Blizzard right as the Sanctum of Domination raid is opening, what is it you would have to do?

Well firstly it's definitely too late to do anything about the ending to the raid, at best you might be able to change a non-critical ability or remove but not replace a voiceline.

So Bluevanas is already a fact at that point, nothing you can do to change it.
You are then further told that a cinematic is already being worked on where Uther aids Bluevanas.
Further you already know that the next patch will be Zereth Mortis, the raid will be the Sepulcher, and the final boss will be the Jailer. The zone is already close to being finalized as the zone developers are being moved to 10.0, and the assets are either already made, or close to being finished by a skeleton crew, so any changes have to be suggested now.

What is the process to fixing the story at this point?
Obviously you cannot salvage the lack of buildup, and Sylvanas' actions, so really it's more a question of how to soften the landing.
Then the raid is complete and players hate Bluevanas.
Then the Uther and Bluevanas cinematic comes out and players hate that too. At this point its obvious that players just hate Sylvanas. However there are also players who love her, so just removing her flatly isn't really possible, not to mention you have a book that is already advertised starring Sylvanas in the lead role.


At this point I think most writers would probably be close to giving up, just doing the bare minimum to make the ending as minimally divisive as possible, then jump to the next expansion and start writing that instead.

Danuser was in charge for all of Shadowlands though.

[Super Dickmann]

At this point I think most writers would probably be close to giving up, just doing the bare minimum to make the ending as minimally divisive as possible, then jump to the next expansion and start writing that instead.

Books and text is one thing you can almost invariably alter so long as copies haven't already been published. I guarantee you that the epilogue of Sylvanas was written within a coffee break when someone called had to call Golden on the phone and tell her that this shit wasn't coming out any time soon. So while you can't change major character arcs, obscure plot complaints about which much ink is spilled can be altered when there's a will.

@Nymrohd

Danuser likely inherited an early draft of Shadowlands which was more in tune with the BFA direction, concept art for it was being cooked up in 2017. We can even tell it in some of the material like how Beta Sylvanas's Maw lines have her twirl her mustache to eat a puppy compared to her non-line in game which is a lot more neutral. Not even finalizing the appearance of your endboss until a couple months away from launch doesn't exactly lend itself to a straight plotline and Shadowlands also had about a third of it chopped out. He still has full responsibility for the fuck-ups of the story that's actually there, but both the structure and the original concept are unlikely to have been solo projects the way, say, ZM or the Sylvanas arc drips his preferences.

[Mferna]

Scarlet is an example of bad people who abuse the Light due to demon manipulation. The Light is not the villain in this story.

Really cause the legion is dealt with and the scarlets are still crazy and fanatical as shit lol

[Sondrelk]

Danuser was in charge for all of Shadowlands though.

In which case you take all the stuff I already mentioned, but possible also someone who insists on making Sylvanas likeable and to give her a redemption arc.

Point being that the writers probably don't have much time to shimmy around important plot beats in the critical moment between a previous plot best being revealed, feedback being given, and future plot beats being set in stone.

By the time the SoD cinematic came out the one with Uther was probably well into the development phase, you could most likely still make changes, but they have to be withing the constraints of Sylvanss already being on the path to redemption with the raid cinematic, and most importantly the proposed changes have to come fast.

Same with the Uther one. 9.2 is already well into development, and some of the cinematics are probably already being made like the Anduin one. So changes have to consider that Sylvanas needs to be in the raid, and needs to have something approximating a redemption arc, and on top of that needs to somehow address the legions of players who hate her guts. And again the changes have to come fast.

I imagine this is probably why one of the 9.2 questlines starts with Uther seemingly being about to introduce Bluevanas, then we do a hard pivot to helping a random enlightened repair a flight path, then at the end Sylvanas is suddenly there in time for the raid.
I imagine the writers figured that in lieu of trying to make Sylvanas likeable before her ending it was better to just feature her as little as possible and crossed fingers she can be gone quickly afterwards.

[Fartlas]

Scarlet is an example of bad people who abuse the Light due to demon manipulation. The Light is not the villain in this story.

The entire point of Illidan's character in Legion was to show that Light isn't a force of good, It's just a force of nature. It doesn't care about anything except fulfilling it's own goals which is to spread its influence even more. Void and Light are two sides of the same coin playing a giant game of chess, and we are the pieces.

[Sondrelk]

Books and text is one thing you can almost invariably alter so long as copies haven't already been published. I guarantee you that the epilogue of Sylvanas was written within a coffee break when someone called had to call Golden on the phone and tell her that this shit wasn't coming out any time soon. So while you can't change major character arcs, obscure plot complaints about which much ink is spilled can be altered when there's a will.

@Nymrohd

Danuser likely inherited an early draft of Shadowlands which was more in tune with the BFA direction, concept art for it was being cooked up in 2017. We can even tell it in some of the material like how Beta Sylvanas's Maw lines have her twirl her mustache to eat a puppy compared to her non-line in game which is a lot more neutral. Not even finalizing the appearance of your endboss until a couple months away from launch doesn't exactly lend itself to a straight plotline and Shadowlands also had about a third of it chopped out. He still has full responsibility for the fuck-ups of the story that's actually there, but both the structure and the original concept are unlikely to have been solo projects the way, say, ZM or the Sylvanas arc drips his preferences.

There is still A book though, which in itself puts pressure on the writers, with at minimum needing to figure out with Golden what the book will contain.
Sure, it's probably easier to change on her end, but it would likely still be a bit of a hassle.

- - - Updated - - -

What was the line being changed actually? Been so long I have completely forgotten. I vaguely remember it being a thing though.

[Super Dickmann]

What was the line being changed actually? Been so long I have completely forgotten. I vaguely remember it being a thing though.

I need to trawl through the previous beta thread, but the line has her talk about how the Maw will flay his soul and the dietary qualities of puppies or something of that description then fucks off. In the release version it's replaced by her talking about his narrow vision then still fucking off.

[Wangming]

Ugh are really back at the "Danuser who has been writing for Blizzard for ten years and continually got promoted is actually a good writer with no way to write what he wants" topic? We really are scraping the bottom of the barrel here for discussions.

[therumblings]

Ugh are really back at the "Danuser who has been writing for Blizzard for ten years and continually got promoted is actually a good writer with no way to write what he wants" topic? We really are scraping the bottom of the barrel here for discussions.

9 days left, until we get our next real leak I expect this thread to go in every direction desperately scraping for something to talk about.

[Nymrohd]

Ugh are really back at the "Danuser who has been writing for Blizzard for ten years and continually got promoted is actually a good writer with no way to write what he wants" topic? We really are scraping the bottom of the barrel here for discussions.

I think we are more in the "Could Shadowlands have been at least marginally better within the constraints given" discussion

- - - Updated - - -

9 days left, until we get our next real leak I expect this thread to go in every direction desperately scraping for something to talk about.

I think we could easily talk more about the specifics of how a Dragon class could be implemented. How many specs, should it be a spec per color or a spec per role and multiple colors having access, how should it look (should it have a caster form looking like the other races like Alex with the Spear on the promo art? a hybrid form? a Draconid form so it can show the gear since Whelp/Drake seems more like a mount form?)

[therumblings]

I'm hoping we get a real leak describing the expansion features this time. I don't think Shadowlands had any details leak other than the Bolvar and Bastion images, so I guess we have to wait and see. Though I'm expecting a bunch of fakes since we know the name this far out.

[Fartlas]

I think we could easily talk more about the specifics of how a Dragon class could be implemented. How many specs, should it be a spec per color or a spec per role and multiple colors having access, how should it look (should it have a caster form looking like the other races like Alex with the Spear on the promo art? a hybrid form? a Draconid form so it can show the gear since Whelp/Drake seems more like a mount form?)

Why make Dragon's a class instead of a race though, there's a lot of customization that can be done with them if done right after all

[Wangming]

I think we are more in the "Could Shadowlands have been at least marginally better within the constraints given" discussion

Oh it could have been better if it weren't for the whole "as much content as WoD but with more wait for it" fiasco. But the reasons for that go back to the establishment of Blizzard and the work culture that resulted in the lawsuit. Yes, covid was part of it, but looking at Square Enix, covid was likely not as big part of it. But between all the layoffs, the walkouts and the general lack of motivation it just boiled over. The way Blizzard operated was not sustainable and it took this long to turn it into a shitshow. It was inevitable. Now if this happened during BfA, Blizzard might not have survived it. Now with 10.0 they can show if they can learn from their mistakes. It will bne interesting.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm hoping we get a real leak describing the expansion features this time. I don't think Shadowlands had any details leak other than the Bolvar and Bastion images, so I guess we have to wait and see. Though I'm expecting a bunch of fakes since we know the name this far out.

Like the story leak with Jim?

[therumblings]

I think we could easily talk more about the specifics of how a Dragon class could be implemented. How many specs, should it be a spec per color or a spec per role and multiple colors having access, how should it look (should it have a caster form looking like the other races like Alex with the Spear on the promo art? a hybrid form? a Draconid form so it can show the gear since Whelp/Drake seems more like a mount form?)

Personally I'm not expecting Alexstasza's appearance to play much into the details of what a dragon class would look or play like, I think the spear is just her new weapon like how Bolvar got a new hammer for SL. I don't even think a dragon class would have any weapon usage other than mage style stat sticks.

[Nymrohd]

Why make Dragon's a class instead of a race though, there's a lot of customization that can be done with them if done right after all

Honestly I don't see a race giving you the opportunity to really live the fantasy of being a dragon. Races only really have one active ability after all. How do you get the breath weapon and the tail sweeps and the wing buffets and the claw and bite attacks? It could I guess be done if class skins also happen.

[Blayze]

I think we could easily talk more about the specifics of how a Dragon class could be implemented.

I'm expecting it to be a Chromatic drakonid, and for the race and class to be locked to each other, with the faction choice purely for gameplay purposes like Battlegrounds (Or a dragon and the race choice is simply the body illusion).

That way the tank spec can be inspired by the Black flight, a ranged DPS spec can be Blue and Bronze, and a healer spec can be Red and Green.

Alternatively, the tank can be Bronze and then a melee spec can be Black.

I wouldn't expect much representation from the "special" flights, except for perhaps some talent or appearance customisation choices.

[Nymrohd]

Personally I'm not expecting Alexstasza's appearance to play much into the details of what a dragon class would look or play like, I think the spear is just her new weapon like how Bolvar got a new hammer for SL. I don't even think a dragon class would have any weapon usage other than mage style stat sticks.

It could have a ranged spec that works in caster (humanoid) form. Many dragons have disguised themselves as mages and it could also work for healing.

[Fartlas]

Honestly I don't see a race giving you the opportunity to really live the fantasy of being a dragon. Races only really have one active ability after all. How do you get the breath weapon and the tail sweeps and the wing buffets and the claw and bite attacks? It could I guess be done if class skins also happen.

You can literally do what every tabletop does, make those the basics of the Dragon form, which can be the one racial you have. It's not the first time it happened either. Worgen have a human and a Worgen form but you don't see them having the ability to claw or bite or take a piss somewhere to mark their territory.

[Wangming]

Honestly I don't see a race giving you the opportunity to really live the fantasy of being a dragon. Races only really have one active ability after all. How do you get the breath weapon and the tail sweeps and the wing buffets and the claw and bite attacks? It could I guess be done if class skins also happen.

A class wouldn't let you live out the fantasy either as balance dictates that you can't be much stronger than a rogue, a guy with two kitchen knives. Or a bare handed fat panda. To truly live yout how much of a death machine a dragon can be, you would need a Devil May Cry esque single player game.

- - - Updated - - -

You can literally do what every tabletop does, make those the basics of the Dragon form, which can be the one racial you have. It's not the first time it happened either. Worgen have a human and a Worgen form but you don't see them having the ability to claw or bite or take a piss somewhere to mark their territory.

Which is a huge missed opportunity by the way.

[Fartlas]

Which is a huge missed opportunity by the way.

Yup, I agree.