Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Syegfryed]

A creature inside the bag can use its action to try to Escape with a successful DC 15 Strength check. Another creature can use its action to reach into the bag to pull a creature out, doing so with a successful DC 20 Strength check (provided it isn't pulled inside the bag first). Any creature that starts its turn inside the bag is devoured, its body destroyed.

I think he means something more along the lines of death, light, and order being very demanding forces and there’s not much room to shift among them- they follow a strict purpose. Like the light being so fanatical and demanding of its worshipers, and the titans (order) being so helbent on shaping worlds thru their image.

And the other forces pose a lot of room for overlap like void offering you multiple truths and paths, life consuming itself and everything around it if left unchecked. Etc.

Idk, it makes sense in my head I’ve always thought of the forces thru those lenses.

But see, "order", is the path of neutrality, they see planets with chaos, and order then, like we saw in draenor and azeroth, even if its their own image, still is an acting of putting things neutral, the titans/pantheon, would be something as "neutral good".

Void even having multiple truths and paths, and consuming, still have a reason/purpose, and act upon those goals, the old gods/void lords would be something as "lawful evil"

[Mferna]

A creature inside the bag can use its action to try to Escape with a successful DC 15 Strength check. Another creature can use its action to reach into the bag to pull a creature out, doing so with a successful DC 20 Strength check (provided it isn't pulled inside the bag first). Any creature that starts its turn inside the bag is devoured, its body destroyed.



But see, "order", is the path of neutrality, they see planets with chaos, and order then, like we saw in draenor and azeroth, even if its their own image, still is an acting of putting things neutral, the titans/pantheon, would be something as "neutral good".

Void even having multiple truths and paths, and consuming, still have a reason/purpose, and act upon those goals, the old gods/void lords would be something as "lawful evil"

Respectfully I think thats so incorrect lol. The void and its forces cannot be lawful evil, they're not lawful they're chaotic. The light is lawful because it is absolute and must be followed, the void is opposite (chaotic) as their is so many paths and possible truths. The paladin is stalwart in his faith, the shadow priest questions everything. But Yeah, I just dont see order as neutral good or evil because order's oposite force is disorder. So what would that be classified as? This poses to many questions cause if you label a few under these classifications you gotta do all 6 and they gotta make sense in contrast to eachother.

[Syegfryed]

Respectfully I think thats so incorrect lol. The void and its forces cannot be lawful evil, they're not lawful they're chaotic. The light is lawful because it is absolute and must be followed, the void is opposite (chaotic) as their is so many paths and possible truths. The paladin is stalwart in his faith, the shadow priest questions everything. But Yeah, I just dont see order as neutral good or evil because order's oposite force is disorder. So what would that be classified as? This poses to many questions cause if you label a few under these classifications you gotta do all 6 and they gotta make sense in contrast to eachother.

But i agree light is lawful?

Just because you have "many truths" and possibilities doesn't explicit mean its chaos, something truly random is something you can't predict, chaotic, you would not even have a "truth", you could not see the future to see those "truths".

The opposite of chaos is order, order = neutrality, fel is chaos, arcane is order/neutrality.

Forces are not inherently good, neutral or evil, wow lore has made clear that what matters is the entities/people using it and how they use it. I didn't said Arcane per se is good, i said arcane is a force of order/neutrality, the pantheon/titans using, would be labeled neutral good or neutral Lawful(which i think fits then more)

The scarlet crusade or yrel and her army would be lawful evil, the order of paladins the priests, the classhall we play would be lawful good. The burning Legion would be Chaotic neutral, but the warlocks who serve the factions would be chaotic neutral/good.

TbF alignment is always something hard to pin down, exactly because those many different factors, So i just label the forces in the base(lawful/neutral/chaotic) and the rest is secondary and it depends on who use it

Its especially hard because wow cosmology is bad compared to something more well though like in D&D. i look at the image and always pisses me off.

[Yossarian]

résumé of the last days? any further likely leak since the Alexstrasza image?

[Nymrohd]

Those might have been a bit of an outlier in how shockingly good they were, but they are also the only time I legitimately felt bad about losing borrowed power, and consequently really felt that I grew weaker as I levelled.
Normally I don't really notice it that bad. I get weaker, but not in a way where there is a sharp cutoff like when I had to abandon my MM 4-set. I just treat it like the enemies growing stronger faster than I cna gear up, but that one time in Legion was absolutely horrible.

This is perhaps why Essences might be the solution to borrowed power. Imagine a system where you can keep discovering additional powers. Yet you can only pick a limited amount. These powers never go away but you also always have to choose which ones you want. So a system very much like War Mode that you can keep building up on over time. You can even have those powers advance by doing activities like Essences did.
So imagine if instead of tier sets (keep the class mogs though!) it worked like the Essences we got from raids, only it is spec specific. Clear a couple of wings of LFR or even a single Heroic boss and you get a base power (like the 2set). Keep clearing more and you can upgrade with a legendary version that is just cosmetic from clearing it in Mythic.
Not only would such a set make acquiring tier easier, it would also keep older raids alive FOREVER. Make tier from past expansions much easier to acquire, power creep them, tie them to Timewalking (which should become evergreen and constantly available, almost everyone seems to want that). You never lose what you had, pure throughput tier can easily keep powercreeping so that you always want the newest one while transformative tiers might be kept as an extra talent or swapped for specific encounters.
You could then much more easily add tier for pvp (could be as simple as "pick an extra war mode talent"), tier for Mythic+ (could be a new tier available each season that is thematic to the seasonal affix, available afterwards through the Vault token?)

[ercarp]

résumé of the last days? any further likely leak since the Alexstrasza image?

Nothing yet. I don't think we'll get any other leaks until the day of the reveal.

[Nymrohd]

But i agree light is lawful?

Just because you have "many truths" and possibilities doesn't explicit mean its chaos, something truly random is something you can't predict, chaotic, you would not even have a "truth", you could not see the future to see those "truths".

The opposite of chaos is order, order = neutrality, fel is chaos, arcane is order/neutrality.

Forces are not inherently good, neutral or evil, wow lore has made clear that what matters is the entities/people using it and how they use it. I didn't said Arcane per se is good, i said arcane is a force of order/neutrality, the pantheon/titans using, would be labeled neutral good or neutral Lawful(which i think fits then more)

The scarlet crusade or yrel and her army would be lawful evil, the order of paladins the priests, the classhall we play would be lawful good. The burning Legion would be Chaotic neutral, but the warlocks who serve the factions would be chaotic neutral/good.

TbF alignment is always something hard to pin down, exactly because those many different factors, So i just label the forces in the base(lawful/neutral/chaotic) and the rest is secondary and it depends on who use it

Its especially hard because wow cosmology is bad compared to something more well though like in D&D. i look at the image and always pisses me off.

The thing is, Light is not just lawful. When Mereldar first met the Naaru, she met five Naaru each of which represented a different virtue. Those included holiness, protection, justice, retribution, and compassion. None of these are innately lawful (no, not even justice, even CG creatures believe in fairness and thus justice, they just don't believe that fairness is tied to law). Yes in Azeroth the Light has mostly been seen as lawful but that is because the two most prominent of the Seven Kingdoms in the lore (Lordaeron and Stormwind) elevated the Church to effectively be an arm of the state and we interacted with Paladins far more than with Priests.

Then we see the Light used by the Army of Light. I don't see how it is lawful there. The army itself is a guerilla force that seems tied by camaraderie as much as faith; they are soldiers in a common cause fighting over centuries together. Their faith in the Light is not blind; that becomes very much obvious when they keep working with Illidan for the greater cause even after he blasts X'era to bits. Even X'era allows questioning; she allows Alleria to live even though Alleria is a mortal threat to her that can not just kill her but transform her into what she hates the most.

Then there is Yrel. I do not think we can make any judgments on Y'rel's regime. We have absolutely no idea what has transpired in Draenor. We do see that the Mag'har easily use dark magics (they torture and manipulate souls in Stormsong which is the darkest of magics) so just accepting one side's account is misguided. For all we know Yrel's regime might not be ruled by the Light alone. We know that the Nathrezim have infilitrated the Light; maybe it is not Lothraxion but an advisor to Yrel who is that agent. That said, Yrel's regime IS lawful. But is it because of the Light or is it because she transformed her people's culture into a military dictatorship? The Draenei were ruled by Velen for eons and yet had never devolved into that before so maybe the issue is that Yrel is lawful, not that the Light is.

We see that Light responds to conviction first and foremost. Not just to zeal. There is a difference there. Conviction still allows you to question (and if we go into moral philosophy, the difference is the cornerstone of many religions in our world; you should question your faith to strengthen it). We see it in game with characters like Tirion but also the Scarlets. That does allow the Light to be used for evil; the virtues of the Light will suffuse you but in the end you are not compelled to show compassion just because you use the Light.

[therumblings]

If we get anything else, I'd expect it to pop up sometime this week, the real one is usually a few days before the announcement. However, I'm not sure if we'll get the typical mmo-c thread post leak, since SL didn't have one to my knowledge, and I also think those leaks usually come from people reading the slides beforehand? I have no idea how they're going to announce this, but It's definitely going to be pre-recorded.

[Nymrohd]

If we get anything else, I'd expect it to pop up sometime this week, the real one is usually a few days before the announcement. However, I'm not sure if we'll get the typical mmo-c thread post leak, since SL didn't have one to my knowledge, and I also think those leaks usually come from people reading the slides beforehand? I have no idea how they're going to announce this, but It's definitely going to be pre-recorded.

With no live event our best chance is leaks from promo materials. There probably will be some material printed for background use in office space (especially during the numerous interviews given after the announcement). And there will definitely be an extensive press package that will be send near the announcement. Either can leak. Both plot points and a very top level feature list could be in either of those.

[Darkarath]

We are almost there, champions ¡

Definitively think that we will get some leak this week. I would not even be surprised if Blizzard put something interesting in a new PTR build for 9.2.5 to increase the hype.

Dragonflight (presumably 10.0) will be the most important expansion in WoW's history, I am really expecting something different.

Along with 10.0, WotLK Classic will be announced, and hopefully (wishful thinking, I know) a WoW console version, or at least an effort to make WoW more playable with a controller.

[LalaGamer]

We are almost there, champions ¡

Definitively think that we will get some leak this week. I would not even be surprised if Blizzard put something interesting in a new PTR build for 9.2.5 to increase the hype.

Dragonflight (presumably 10.0) will be the most important expansion in WoW's history, I am really expecting something different.

Along with 10.0, WotLK Classic will be announced, and hopefully (wishful thinking, I know) a WoW console version, or at least an effort to make WoW more playable with a controller.

In my mind they are going to rest WOW in this expansion since we will see the Scourge and the Undead being irrelevant any more.

[SniperCT]

I mean galakrond is probably a world boss at least because he is kinda the cause of the creation of the aspects

Also apparently Elune has a part in creating aspects because it requires the two moons to cross paths so I’m wondering if we might get an actual aspect of death via galakrond

We are almost there, champions ¡

Definitively think that we will get some leak this week. I would not even be surprised if Blizzard put something interesting in a new PTR build for 9.2.5 to increase the hype.

Dragonflight (presumably 10.0) will be the most important expansion in WoW's history, I am really expecting something different.

Along with 10.0, WotLK Classic will be announced, and hopefully (wishful thinking, I know) a WoW console version, or at least an effort to make WoW more playable with a controller.

With a console version, I wonder if the game would get a F2P type system. Preferable something reasonable. ESO's (where you get all content but latest expansion in a sub+ perks or just buy expansions/DLC piecemeal) would be my preferred option. Especially if they steal the bottomless account wide crafting mats bag for subs.

[Nymrohd]

With a console version, I wonder if the game would get a F2P type system. Preferable something reasonable. ESO's (where you get all content but latest expansion in a sub+ perks or just buy expansions/DLC piecemeal) would be my preferred option. Especially if they steal the bottomless account wide crafting mats bag for subs.

I do not see a console version ever. The game is entirely dependent on addons to be playable at higher difficulties. Look at ESO specifically. Trifectas for trials are almost impossible to do in raids because of the lack of addons.

[Syegfryed]

The thing is, Light is not just lawful. When Mereldar first met the Naaru, she met five Naaru each of which represented a different virtue. Those included holiness, protection, justice, retribution, and compassion. None of these are innately lawful (no, not even justice, even CG creatures believe in fairness and thus justice, they just don't believe that fairness is tied to law). Yes in Azeroth the Light has mostly been seen as lawful but that is because the two most prominent of the Seven Kingdoms in the lore (Lordaeron and Stormwind) elevated the Church to effectively be an arm of the state and we interacted with Paladins far more than with Priests.

Light as force, is a force lawfulness, you are talking about individuals/entities, the naaru, they can differentiate from each other and have their own compass.

The ones you listed, can be lawful as well, justice isn't inherently lawful, but can be.

Then we see the Light used by the Army of Light. I don't see how it is lawful there. The army itself is a guerilla force that seems tied by camaraderie as much as faith; they are soldiers in a common cause fighting over centuries together. Their faith in the Light is not blind; that becomes very much obvious when they keep working with Illidan for the greater cause even after he blasts X'era to bits. Even X'era allows questioning; she allows Alleria to live even though Alleria is a mortal threat to her that can not just kill her but transform her into what she hates the most.

That is the principle of a lawful good army, their follow their code/rule, against the Legion, you see, they were hellbent in using mostly the light to fight, you don't see then doing "whatever it takes" like using fel magic to destroy the legion, not until Illidan and azeroth came up and they have to agree with us

Aligment in those cases are not fixed, they are a gradient and its nuanced, it can't be 100% one or another.

Then there is Yrel. I do not think we can make any judgments on Y'rel's regime. We have absolutely no idea what has transpired in Draenor. We do see that the Mag'har easily use dark magics (they torture and manipulate souls in Stormsong which is the darkest of magics) so just accepting one side's account is misguided. For all we know Yrel's regime might not be ruled by the Light alone. We know that the Nathrezim have infilitrated the Light; maybe it is not Lothraxion but an advisor to Yrel who is that agent. That said, Yrel's regime IS lawful. But is it because of the Light or is it because she transformed her people's culture into a military dictatorship? The Draenei were ruled by Velen for eons and yet had never devolved into that before so maybe the issue is that Yrel is lawful, not that the Light is.

Like i said, you are mixing the force itself with the people using, Yrel is doing a light crusade that everyone have to follow the light, period, this is an act of "law", but is "evil" because your actions and outcome.

Light is just lawful, what you do with is is a compass/gradiant that go from good, neutral then evil.

We see that Light responds to conviction first and foremost. Not just to zeal. There is a difference there. Conviction still allows you to question (and if we go into moral philosophy, the difference is the cornerstone of many religions in our world; you should question your faith to strengthen it). We see it in game with characters like Tirion but also the Scarlets. That does allow the Light to be used for evil; the virtues of the Light will suffuse you but in the end you are not compelled to show compassion just because you use the Light.

Just because a force is lawful doesn't you are forbidden to "question" or unable to. Scarlet crusade, just like yrel is an example of a lawful evil force. LAwful for the force they use(Light) and their goals, but evil because of their actions.

LAwful isn't inehrently good or evil, it can be both

[TomatoBisque]

This is perhaps why Essences might be the solution to borrowed power. Imagine a system where you can keep discovering additional powers. Yet you can only pick a limited amount. These powers never go away but you also always have to choose which ones you want. So a system very much like War Mode that you can keep building up on over time. You can even have those powers advance by doing activities like Essences did.
So imagine if instead of tier sets (keep the class mogs though!) it worked like the Essences we got from raids, only it is spec specific. Clear a couple of wings of LFR or even a single Heroic boss and you get a base power (like the 2set). Keep clearing more and you can upgrade with a legendary version that is just cosmetic from clearing it in Mythic.
Not only would such a set make acquiring tier easier, it would also keep older raids alive FOREVER. Make tier from past expansions much easier to acquire, power creep them, tie them to Timewalking (which should become evergreen and constantly available, almost everyone seems to want that). You never lose what you had, pure throughput tier can easily keep powercreeping so that you always want the newest one while transformative tiers might be kept as an extra talent or swapped for specific encounters.
You could then much more easily add tier for pvp (could be as simple as "pick an extra war mode talent"), tier for Mythic+ (could be a new tier available each season that is thematic to the seasonal affix, available afterwards through the Vault token?)

Having content be relevant forever sounds great but would be a nightmare both from a development standpoint and a player standpoint.

For timewalking: timewalking raids are only fun because they're available like twice a year, the gear they offer isn't terribly relevant (normal raid quality gear) and a lot of people only do the dungeons for the raid box. It's not content you'd do a lot if it was evergreen. People would lose interest quickly and then the content would be dead--think about how hard it is to find groups for group quests while leveling (which is explicitly a big reason why they're no longer a thing). Look at BFA: Eternal Palace dropped trinkets that were still bis into 8.3 and was required for one of the best essences for most classes, and it was mostly dead and people hated having to go back for it. Or now with legendary recipes from Nathria.

And then having potentially multiple of these each patch, that all have to be fun and unique, but also futureproofed to last forever which locks specs into basically never changing baseline. Like, what happens if a spec gets reworked like Shadow did from BFA to SL? Oops, all 30 of your essences have to be totally reworked and rebalanced now too.

Also imagine being a new player and having to go do like every raid just to have a complete character. And it's timewalking on top of that so you have to actually learn every fight in the entire game.

The solution to borrowed power is to make it easy to obtain a baseline that makes your character feel good to play rather than gating it behind a massive grind like Legion and BFA did. Like, if you all your azerite armor traits active no matter what, and they just got stronger based on your heart of azeroth level that would be way better.

If we get anything else, I'd expect it to pop up sometime this week, the real one is usually a few days before the announcement. However, I'm not sure if we'll get the typical mmo-c thread post leak, since SL didn't have one to my knowledge, and I also think those leaks usually come from people reading the slides beforehand? I have no idea how they're going to announce this, but It's definitely going to be pre-recorded.

If it's prerecorded, there will be video editors which might leak it

That said without a big convention it's a lot less likely to leak. It's way easier to control who knows information and thus easier to trace leaks which makes them way riskier

[Nymrohd]

OK so how is Light knowable except through its primary agents? If anything, the force itself would be unaligned.

[Syegfryed]

OK so how is Light knowable except through its primary agents? If anything, the force itself would be unaligned.

By the nature of the magic itself, without their agents. I would not say the force itself is unaligned because it being a cuple fo times since they show to act on their own, or even develop sentience. Thats why i just pin down a primary drive "law, chaos or neutrality" the rest we see by the entities/people using it.

[Darkarath]

With a console version, I wonder if the game would get a F2P type system. Preferable something reasonable. ESO's (where you get all content but latest expansion in a sub+ perks or just buy expansions/DLC piecemeal) would be my preferred option. Especially if they steal the bottomless account wide crafting mats bag for subs.

If they make a world revamp, separately from the Old World, I could see them making everything until Shadowlands free to play, but I do not think that they will drop the subscription model anytime soon, although I would not be surprised if they make a ''premium'' subscription model or something like that.

[Nymrohd]

For timewalking: timewalking raids are only fun because they're available like twice a year, the gear they offer isn't terribly relevant (normal raid quality gear) and a lot of people only do the dungeons for the raid box. It's not content you'd do a lot if it was evergreen. People would lose interest quickly and then the content would be dead--think about how hard it is to find groups for group quests while leveling (which is explicitly a big reason why they're no longer a thing). Look at BFA: Eternal Palace dropped trinkets that were still bis into 8.3 and was required for one of the best essences for most classes, and it was mostly dead and people hated having to go back for it. Or now with legendary recipes from Nathria.

And then having potentially multiple of these each patch, that all have to be fun and unique, but also futureproofed to last forever which locks specs into basically never changing baseline. Like, what happens if a spec gets reworked like Shadow did from BFA to SL? Oops, all 30 of your essences have to be totally reworked and rebalanced now too.

On Timewalking I would argue that raiders need more content more frequently. People clear the current raid on the level of difficulty they can manage with a few months. Then many guilds struggle to progress at a level of difficulty they mostly cannot handle until the tier is over. This is what I've seen in guilds in the past. Some people can handle the next difficulty, some can barely handle the difficulty the guild is really doing and many guilds don't last more than a couple of xpacs because of this. Alternatively guilds realize their limits but run out of content; once progress stops many people are just too bored with doing farm content. Raid mounts can keep people busy, and keep attendance high especially if we have the combo of a skip & higher ilvl gear form last few bosses. But that's not enough content and people start logging off.
Imagine this then. Each raid tier, the current raid is the only current content for about 3 months. After 3 months, a timewalking season begins and a timewalking raid with a heroic version available enters the game. People who are done with progress can move to the TW raid.
Same for M+; split the season in half and in the second part have a few dungeons from the TW season enter the rotation.

On the idea that old raids of the same xpac go dead, I'd say look at Legion. People did weekend speed runs of Emerald Nightmare and later Nighthold well into the expansion farming legendaries, AP and hidden appearances. Was extremely easy to find a PuG for those raids; people were even PuGing Mythic Emerald Nightmare. If there is compelling rewards and the gameplay is actually fun, people will do old content. I'd say the reason people did not do Eternal Palace for the Essence was that a) there were very few good rewards for doing that (the Essence and the Azshara trinket, not even a mount) and b) Eternal Palace was the worst raid of BfA by a decent margin with Queen Azshara one of the worst design end bosses in quite a while.

On the idea of constantly redesigning classes . . . well personally I think they should stop doing that. They should be adding designs laterally without destroying existing playstyles all the time. Iterate on good playstyle and add more. There is really no point to the talent system when most people play a spec in the exact same way and they almost never get there because it seems they don't even want to; they usually squash alternative playstyles instead.

And yeah I do see Essences possibly getting overwhelming after a while. They could retire older ones I suppose. Perhaps slap a timewalking tag on them and make them available only during timewalking of their season). Maybe rotate some old essences every season to keep things spicy.

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By the nature of the magic itself, without their agents. I would not say the force itself is unaligned because it being a cuple fo times since they show to act on their own, or even develop sentience. Thats why i just pin down a primary drive "law, chaos or neutrality" the rest we see by the entities/people using it.

But what is the nature of Light? Healing, retribution, protection. It destroys the corrupt (fel) and the undead. And when used in divination, it looks for the best course to get you to your preferred outcome. it doesn't force the outcome. We can see that in Velen's prophetic visions. It's not that the Light discounts all possibilities, Velen describes his visions and it is more that it seeks a path instead of showing all paths. I just don't see that as necessarily lawful.

[Makabreska]

The Azshara log in screen joke was done a few pages ago. No need to repeat.

To this day I am amazed how good this login screen looks.

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I'm tired of "Azeroth is wounded" plot. Let her do something

Ye, I am not keen on a literal planet we walk upon to "do something".