Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Vakir]

Look above

That works!

[Berkilak]

I'm moderately disappointed it's not what I thought it was.

I'm guessing a metallic dragonflight would be our 10.3 patch. The epilogue, having finally gotten our hands on the MacGuffin to re-empower the dragonflights, has us re-originating the existing dragonflights into metallic counterparts.

- - - Updated - - -

I am so proud of the train i started this season continuing /cry

Would anyone have the previous trains saved? It would be interesting to see all the previous final iterations lined up.

[Fartlas]

Can't wait for us to finally summon Bahamut and fight Tiamat.

[Berkilak]

Can't wait for us to finally summon Bahamut and fight Tiamat.

My money is on Elune being the Bahamut equivalent, and Chromatus is already the in-lore Tiamat stand-in. It should be an interesting expansion indeed...

[Syegfryed]

That does not make it inherently neutral, it just happened that cosmology Order forces happened to be neutral in WoW. It can easily be evil, as shown in other media - hence the concept of Lawful Evil. Emperor Palpatine and his Empire or Baron Harkonnen are good examples

yeah, i talk about this ealier, but things have being lost due to many people talking over, i see the "forces" as just basic "law/neutral/chaos" and depending on who wield/uses, it can be evil or good. One of the reasons i would be up for an expansion with the light as villain, as a lawful evil force.

Alignment is something rly hard to pin down and it rly depends on context, even someone "lawful good" can do evil/bad stuff if it means it will go hand in hand with his own code or his people/kingdom code.

[Skildar]

To me the problem is that they are reanswering questions that people were completely fine with. Arthas got a completely satisfying end in Wrath. An emotional farewell that is still quoted to this day. Did we really need to learn that he was controlled by zombie pickard through the helmet? And it was totally the helmet, not the sword. Which is why it is odd that Anduin got a new sword and not a new Helmet. And despite not being actually evil and just a victim of the Jailer's control his soul was still used to corrupt Anduin and......ugh. You get it.

This is why Pandaria worked so well? it didn't reanswer questions that already had satisfying conclusions.

Not how I understood this, but I feel like there isn't any definitive truth there. To me Arthas was still in control all the time, but both ner'zhul and him were fighting the domination magic of the Jailer and keeping the undead at bay. Which is something that hasn't meant a lot before we were introduced to the Jailer. We even get a line from Zovaal stating that Arthas and Ner'zhul actually did some good by going against the Jailer's plan. It is still the sword that pushed the spirit of Ner'zhul on Arthas and the helm that merged the two.

- - - Updated - - -

i personally draw the line when they make a book that is supposed to be the "word of good', aka chronicles, and immediately says isn't anymore, and go wild changing that.

If you are going to expand, create upon an idea, don't lock yourself into something, don't give hard on answer if you are not sure about the direction of the game, or in this case, don't make cosmological chart if its going to be invalided some time later with a "7th force" or how shadowlands and emerald dream are now different things

I would prefer if they work in the cosmology with that image as base, not changing on top of it, like shadowlands and emerald dream were apparently, something else, now what we got in shadowlands

You're quite confused there :/
They never invalidated or retconned anything from chronicles as it is a book written from a point of view. They unfortunately did introduce the book as the chart of everything we know and at the time, we understood it as "definitive encyclopedia". And we didn't know everything of course, they are expanding the universe and its lore and have been quite straight forward about it.

The picture you're talking about is still very much valid and still will be as picture in that instant of what the titans know about the universe

[Izalla]

If you can find any more room on that train pic we only have two of our dragonflight leaders. We came up with beach bro Nozdormu but I don't know there was anything silly we came up with for Kalec or Merithra

[Syegfryed]

You're quite confused there :/
They never invalidated or retconned anything from chronicles as it is a book written from a point of view.

????

how not? they sell the book as the warcraft bible, word of god, the de facto source of canon lore, then they say "its just a prank bro, its all titan perspective" literally invalidating the book and his purpose.

They unfortunately did introduce the book as the chart of everything we know and at the time, we understood it as "definitive encyclopedia". And we didn't know everything of course, they are expanding the universe and its lore and have been quite straight forward about it.

Nope, its was not that "we understood" its what they said and sold.

[Biruteka]

none information from the cronicles was retconned, please god stop with this nonsense

[Vakir]

none information from the cronicles was retconned, please god stop with this nonsense

Not technically. The issue is that they did market it and sell it under a concept it wasn't intended as later. It's not the greatest heresy known to man, it's not false advertising, but they simply didn't know when it was written that it would be the Titan's POV.

[Nymrohd]

none information from the cronicles was retconned, please god stop with this nonsense

???

No part of the book is written from the perspective of the Titans since the Titans could not even know most of what happened there (they were dead/imprisoned).

[Biruteka]

???

No part of the book is written from the perspective of the Titans since the Titans could not even know most of what happened there (they were dead/imprisoned).

literally braindead

[Raetary]

none information from the cronicles was retconned, please god stop with this nonsense

Lets see...

- Changed from Lore bible to 'titans perspective only' - which makes absolutely no sense as like 90% of it doesn't even involve them.
- Titans were dead as they couldn't manifest in the Keepers, they are alive again in 7.3
- Titans were the planets themselves, Sargeras being described with mountains and volcanos on his back, Audio drama retcons the titan planets to be cocoons and 7.3 flat out shows Sargeras in his proper Living Nebula state.
- Spirit Healers were established as rogue Val'kyr, in SL it turns out it was the smurf covenant all along.
- Nathrezim were pure, original demons that formed in the twisting nether, SL turned them into Denathrius' toys.

But sure, no retcons at all.

[Nymrohd]

literally braindead

? elaborate

Look at how other mediums successfully do subjective presentation.

[huth]

In wow i see order/arcane as a concept of neutrality rather than lawful, The titans saw chaotic words and shape then in order, but they don't say there to keep the "laws", and you know, lawful neutral exist exactly to answer this, as a primal force of neutrality with beings(titans) actively ordering the cosmo with their own vision.

Lawful Neutral is neutral on the moral axis, i.e. it is neither Good nor Evil. The same way a Neutral Good character is neither Lawful nor Chaotic.

It doesn't mean what you say here at all.

A law doesn't have to be explicitly stated, either. There's plenty of "unwritten rules". The Titans very clearly expect things to go a specific course and will resort to extreme measures when it doesn't, with it having been explicitly stated that they're perfectly willing to wipe out and rebuild planets to achieve this. That's not Neutral behaviour.


Also, as far as the Void is concerned, every path is true. They also explicitly have the ability to see the future, though this is of questionable use as they see all potential futures so for the most part it's just an incomprehensible jumble.

Your view is already incorrect based on the information we have now.

- - - Updated - - -

Lets see...

- Changed from Lore bible to 'titans perspective only' - which makes absolutely no sense as like 90% of it doesn't even involve them.
- Titans were dead as they couldn't manifest in the Keepers, they are alive again in 7.3
- Titans were the planets themselves, Sargeras being described with mountains and volcanos on his back, Audio drama retcons the titan planets to be cocoons and 7.3 flat out shows Sargeras in his proper Living Nebula state.
- Spirit Healers were established as rogue Val'kyr, in SL it turns out it was the smurf covenant all along.
- Nathrezim were pure, original demons that formed in the twisting nether, SL turned them into Denathrius' toys.

But sure, no retcons at all.

Maybe you should re-read the Chronicle. It doesn't state half of that.

Spirit Healers for example were not established as rogue Val'kyr in a way that made Kyrians impossible. It was stated that some became Spirit Healers... which may well have involved them dying.

Titans were also only described as appearing that way. It isn't at all clear if their original bodies were actually created from the planets.

Titans were dead in 7.3. Sargeras was torturing their disembodied souls. The Chronicle actually explains why they couldn't manifest.

The Chronicle never gave anything outside the Titan's perspective, either. Perspective doesn't mean "personally involved". It just means there's nothing in there that the Titans couldn't know about.

About the only point is the Nathrezim. Which is in keeping with their focus on deception and trickery, all things considered. For that matter, they were pretending to be Void worshippers.


There's also the problem that people keep assuming it was meant to be a comprehensive encyclopedia when that would have been practically impossible to do without ending the franchise. It was, and still is, for the most part definitive. It's not comprehensive, never could be and was never intended to be.

[Vasoka]

literally braindead

You sure are, buckaroo.

But anyway, it's one week to Danuser's baby, how're we all feeling?

[Nymrohd]

The Chronicle never gave anything outside the Titan's perspective, either. Perspective doesn't mean "personally involved". It just means there's nothing in there that the Titans couldn't know about.

How would the Titans know of all the things that happened while they were dead?

Also, when something is written from someone's perspective, it is presented as such. Could be reports written by Constellars. Tablets like the Disks of Norgannon that would record what happened. Yet what we got was not someone's account, it was a list of events that in no way intimated being someone's account.

Really, this narrative technique they say they are using is very common in fantasy. But it is always done in a way that makes it clear it is subjective. And the promotional material for the Chronicles literally called them "Definitive tomes of Warcraft history".

There's also the problem that people keep assuming it was meant to be a comprehensive encyclopedia when that would have been practically impossible to do without ending the franchise. It was, and still is, for the most part definitive. It's not comprehensive, never could be and was never intended to be.

Definitive literally means "complete, final, authoritative, exhaustive"

[huth]

How would the Titans know of all the things that happened while they were dead?

Their servants told them? They kinda have a habit of putting those everywhere.

Besides, that's missing the point. They had the ability to collect this information. They did not have the ability to get information about, say, the Shadowlands.

[Ersula]

How would the Titans know of all the things that happened while they were dead?

Well, Titans don't exactly die so much as become disembodied consciousness, ie: Eonar on Elunaria

[Wangming]

But anyway, it's one week to Danuser's baby, how're we all feeling?

Do you have to put it like that? I'm eating.

- - - Updated - - -

Their servants told them? They kinda have a habit of putting those everywhere.

Besides, that's missing the point. They had the ability to collect this information. They did not have the ability to get information about, say, the Shadowlands.

I get all that. But then it begs the question: What even is the point? Like imagine this pitch to the fans:

"We made the lore a hot mess so to clear it up here is the subjective biased account of keepers who gathered a bunch of info for the titans while they were kinda sort of maybe dead."

I'm pretty sure 99% of the reactions would have been: Screw that, give us the actual answers.

And yes, it is true that providing definitive answers is difficult for an ongoing game like WoW, but the status of Chronicle as a lore bible didn't survive the end of Legion. They could have stuck to it a bit longer I feel.