1. #39641
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I mean on lore issues the reception is even negative in the community council forums were people actually make the effort to post constructively. And the main complaint is as seen here as well not on the substance of the lore (which is bad but can be wrapped up and forgotten) but on how poorly everything is being delivered (which is far more alarming because it means that even if they get better ideas they have no idea how to communicate them).
    A lot of lore issues people have come from either a rose-tinted view of the past or a basic misunderstanding of the story

    Almost every complaint about the modern story is just something that has always been a part of Blizzard storytelling, because the story has always been 80s power metal fantasy that runs mostly on rule of cool and only recently (since around Wrath/Cata?) attempted to have themes and not just be about dudes fighting

    1. Cosmic storytelling, returning to be a simple adventurer, complaints about scifi. This one I understand here is "They created the First Ones because they needed a mysterious creator above the titans". I also get wanting to return to a familiar-ish setting on Azeroth. Everything else like complaining about wanting to go back to traditional fantasy I really don't. We've had spaceships since Burning Crusade. The Burning Legion was pretty scifi in Burning Crusade (like, go look at the shit all over Outland). Go look at the shit the Blood Elves built all over Netherstorm. We've been killing gods since basically forever. Like, we've killed 3 Old Gods, which while not Titan level are pretty damn strong, especially since for the first one we had zero outside help. In the very first expansion we went to another planet.

    2. Danuser is a Sylvanas fanboy and a hack and Nathanos is his self-insert. No, shut up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGWD_xZ3RgY I don't love Danuser but please kindly shut the fuck up with this, there's simply nothing supporting it. That doesn't mean he's a great writer but the amount of vitriol the guy gets for something totally made up blows my mind.

    3. Any complaints about retcons/character assassinations. Illidan being the big bad of TBC. Kael'thas joining the Legion in TBC, completely betraying everything his character stood for. Whatever the fuck Vashj was doing in TBC. Eredar/Draenei retcon in TBC. "There must always be a Lich King" retcon in Wrath. The fact that there are factions at all totally throws out the ending of the WC3 campaigns. The Orcs in WC1 were demons from hell or something like that and the humans worshipped God. The story has always had retcons and will always have retcons.

    4. Sylvanas Redemption arc. So, first of all, there wasn't one, but this was on every fucking forum for the entire expansion right up until it turns out, no, she wasn't. In fact, Sylvanas's story went basically the same way as Uther and Tyrande's did--a character who was obsessed with vengeance realizing that vengeance is not justice. Which in turn parallels Arthas and Illidan, characters closely related to the first three.

    which leads into

    5. People don't understand the themes of the story. Now, I'm not going to say the themes are always presented consistently over the lifetime of the game's inception (what the FUCK is the takeaway from the faction wars?), but the themes of Shadowlands are like... fairly clearcut, and also one of the better attempts at it in Blizzard's history (note that this is specifically about the general plot and themes, the storytelling could be greatly improved). So, I will talk about that.

    There are two characters that go through major growth in Shadowlands: Sylvanas and Tyrande. There are other important characters like Anduin, Bolvar, etc. but they remain mostly static. If you consider the Shadowlands as a whole to be a character, that would be third but I will talk about that after I talk about these two.

    And the major theme in Sylvanas and Tyrande's stories is Vengeance vs. Justice/Renewal. And not just your regular vengeance, for both of these characters it's an obsession, it consumes every fabric of their being. Let's get started

    Sylvanas has been set up to be following in Arthas's footsteps ever since Arthas kicked the bucket, if not before. There's the infamous cutscene from the Cata version of Silverpine Forest where Garrosh compares Sylvanas to the Lich King, and the only dissimilarity she can offer is she serves the Horde. In BFA, she starts raising Blood Elves to be Dark Rangers even though Lorthemar specifically told her not to raise Blood Elves back in MoP. And her entire allegiance to the Jailer comes from an "Ends justify the means" mindset as well as the trauma of failing to protect her homeland driving her to vengeance against Arthas.

    And her vengeance vendetta directly lead her into the Jailer's hands. Because once she became undead and free from the Lich King's control, her entire life became completely centered around destroying Arthas. Nothing else mattered to her. He took everything from her, so she was going to do the same to him. And that is Vengeance. But once she had it, what happened? She realized her life was empty. She had spent years of her life on this vendetta and when it was over, there was nothing that had any meaning left to her, even though there could have been. She could have helped the surviving Blood Elves, her fellow Forsaken, something that would help the victims of Arthas's atrocities. That would have been Renewal (note that this doesn't involve forgive and forget)

    But her life is empty so she tries to kill herself and the rest is history. And in BFA she becomes exactly like the person she hated, committing genocide to fulfill her own ends, causing untold suffering. Sylvanas, in her attempts to get revenge on Arthas, ended up just as bad as him. This is spelled out in the cinematic after you rescue Anduin in the raid, and is why Uther plays such a big part in 9.2 and helping Sylvanas. Because Uther went through a similar plotline in the Kyrian campaign in 9.0. He performed an act of Vengeance claiming it to be Justice (that's right, the theme is in the very first Afterlives video!), only to later realize what he had done didn't help anyone. And hey, that's another character on a Vengeance vs. Justice themed plot (if you want a bonus one, Kael's whole beef with Kel'Thuzad is explicitly stated to be dangerous for his redemption in Revendreth because it was driven by... you guessed it, vengeance)

    So on to Tyrande. If Sylvanas became Arthas, then Tyrande became Sylvanas. After her people were slaughtered, Tyrande took up a dark corrupting power, abandoning her people that needed her leadership in order to seek Vengeance, slaughtering Nathanos and jumping into the Shadowlands. Wait, that sounds like another vengeance seeking character in Warcraft's history. It's probably nothing. She then ignores the please of Shandris, one of her closest friends in pursuit of justice, abandoning her people that need her once again in pursuit of the person she holds responsible. To the ends of the earth, maybe. Wait, this is just Arthas! Yeah, that's right, Tyrande is Sylvanas is Arthas. It's Arthas all the way down baby and this isn't because the writers are unoriginal hacks, it's because it rhymes. Like poetry.

    But wait, there's more. Tyrande also takes on the characteristics of another "ends justify the means" edgelord, one that she knows quite well--Mr. Illidan Stormrage. Tyrande, who has been a bow wielder since her very first appearance begins fighting in melee with warglaives, just like him.

    But here comes the key difference maker for Tyrande. At the Battle of Ardenweald, when the power of the Night Warrior is literally killing her ("My life for hers") and will do so if she delivers the deathblow to Sylvanas, Elune literally intervenes to save the life of Tyrande. No, says Elune, I did not agree to that. Do not go down this path of vengeance, it's not what I want. So afterwards, Tyrande has to choose: Vengeance or Justice? Will she throw away the corrupting force and step away from the path of Vengeance?

    And this is where Tyrande becomes unlike Sylvanas and Arthas. Because Tyrande chooses to heed the words of her support, the people who care about her, that tell her she is going down the wrong road. She gives it up and will instead help her people rebuild--because for the sake of those who are still alive, that is what matters most. Not this "to the ends of the earth" nonsense (just uh, ignore that Sylvanas was working for a guy that was literally trying to remake the universe--again, I never said it was perfect).

    We then get to see Tyrande's growth in the epilogue when she's given the opportunity to choose Sylvanas's punishment. Rather than hand out something needlessly punitive and cruel, Tyrande instead chooses something that will bring Justice and Renewal: Go free every soul in the Maw. This is a good punishment. It undoes as much damage as can be done by Sylvanas and the Jailer's actions, importantly by helping people.

    So there's Sylvanas and Tyrande. Did they work out perfectly? No, I don't think so. Is this the worst storytelling I've ever seen and a low point of WoW lore? No, far from it. I respect that they are at least trying to do something like this and I hope this at least persuades some people to be a little less harsh.

    Anyway, here's my bonus bit about the Shadowlands, redemption, and humanmortal potential.

    The Shadowlands were set up by godly progenitor beings that are probably more far removed from the lives of mortals than we are from ants, and they decided how people should spend eternity after they die. Let's ignore any parallels to real life religions because I don't think Blizzard thought about that for 3 seconds.

    So like, a big theme in Shadowlands is that the afterlife is kind of unfair. Being a Kyrian sucks because you lose all your memories and become a walking Ship of Theseus paradox. Going to the Maw is just being tortured for all eternity. And even if you're in some other afterlife there's no guarantee you'll be able to spend eternity with your friends and loved ones. This is a big point in the Sylvanas novel, and again, this should really really be more prominent in game.

    And this is what happens when the being in charge of all this is a robot made by a bunch of immortal alien god creatures who are so far removed from these mortal problems that they can't really conceive how this affects them. And the less alien but still immortal god creatures that upkeep and take care of this system are mostly content, stagnant, enforcing the status quo with little compassion. They have a very strict definition of morality and ethics: You did X so you go to place A. Have a good eternity. The Jailer kind of understood this was fucked up because he used it to convince Sylvanas but he was the arbiter before so what were things like then ???????? he's a non-character whatever

    The immortal god creatures being shitheads isn't just a shadowlands thing, look at Odyn and all the trouble he caused. There's a big theme of these dudes thinking that they know best and generally fucking things up.

    The moral of Warcraft's story is, as you may have guessed, is that the immortal god creatures are wrong. A good example comes in De Other Side dungeons, with the exchanges Mueh'zala and Bwonsamdi in De Other Side. Mueh'zala spends the dungeon talking about how he doesn't need followers or worshippers, he's the god of death fuck you. Bwonsamdi's counterpoint is that immortal god creatures' power comes from those followers, from their bonds and camaraderie, a sort of collective self-determinism on the part of mortals. After we defeat Mueh'zala, Bwonsamdi says mortals aren't as weak as Mueh thinks. You know, potential.

    So, how does this relate to the Shadowlands? Well, Pelagos, a mortal, becomes the new Arbiter. Pelagos, who is characterized as a good person who believes everyone has a chance to redeem themselves, something that is an important qualification when your job is determining where souls go to spend the rest of eternity. We see in Revendreth lots of characters who did horrible, awful things in life but having millennia to think about it changes your perspective. So, you know, by the end of the story the Shadowlands ends up a better place. The Kyrian realize abandoning your memories kinda sucks and should be optional, that sort of thing. It overall becomes a better place for mortals, which are the big focus of Warcraft's storytelling. Anything immortal generally is an arrogant dickhead (or worse) or kind of a side character good guy who might get depowered (like the dragons)

    So yeah, that's my defense on SL's themes and stuff. The #1 and #2 problems with the story are A) the presentation requires you to pay attention a lot and most people don't do that instead opting to listen to a summary from a dude who read a wowpedia article or B) the fucking jailer

    It's not the best thing ever written, but honestly give me a storyline from Vanilla/TBC/Wrath that even attempts anything like this.

  2. #39642
    Quote Originally Posted by Marlamin View Post
    Edit: Also, never say things are 100% accurate or 100% fake/not happening.
    I feel like most people on this forum learned that lesson when Demon Hunters and or Classic WoW were announced, but people are still saying things like Tinker will never ever come to the game, or another class will never be added, so all the leaks must be fake, lol.

  3. #39643
    Quote Originally Posted by Marlamin View Post
    Nah, it's not that hard to find albeit a while ago around Legion. I only took a cursory glance, I'm sure someone else can go ahead and verify things date/edit wise.
    You are the one making statements, you should verify your own sources... not other people.

  4. #39644
    Warchief Catastrophy349's Avatar
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    Almost there. Just 7 days to go!

  5. #39645
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    They are saying it's a dragon related class...
    I highly doubt it.

  6. #39646
    Quote Originally Posted by Catastrophy349 View Post
    Almost there. Just 7 days to go!
    You should only count workdays.
    It became clear that it wasn’t realistic to try to get the audience back to being more hardcore, as it had been in the past. -- Tom Chilton

  7. #39647
    Immortal Shadochi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catastrophy349 View Post
    Almost there. Just 7 days to go!
    Has the prep started yet? I assume its not big since its not an in person event

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Blayze View Post
    You should only count workdays.
    what if someone works on the weekends?
    #1 Hype-Thread Shitposter - Overlord of the Hypethread

  8. #39648
    Scarab Lord ercarp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlamin View Post
    Edit: Also, never say things are 100% accurate or 100% fake/not happening. Enough people have been proven wrong in saying such things in the past.
    That's true. When Warlords of Draenor was leaked on the forums, almost everyone in that thread was forced to eat crow because of how fake it sounded. I still go back there to read the replies sometimes, it's great entertainment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gifdwarf View Post
    @ercarp right here, this is why I'm skeptical since a race/class is kind of expected.
    If that release date is correct, then that would mean getting our hands on Alpha/Beta a lot sooner as well (maybe as soon as 2-4 weeks after the announcement). It sounds... almost too good to be true. It would also be the shortest amount of time from announcement to expansion release, I think, ever? I could be wrong there though.

    And I have Hogwarts Legacy to look forward to in Q4 2022 so I don't really even want the expansion to come out that soon.
    Last edited by ercarp; 2022-04-12 at 12:25 PM.

  9. #39649
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadochi View Post
    what if someone works on the weekends?
    If someone works seven days in a row, I feel bad for them.

    And there's probably very little prep since they chose to do this thing around Easter; I'd expect it was all pre-recorded.
    It became clear that it wasn’t realistic to try to get the audience back to being more hardcore, as it had been in the past. -- Tom Chilton

  10. #39650
    Quote Originally Posted by Deventh View Post
    You are the one making statements, you should verify your own sources... not other people.
    Nah, this isn't part of my job nor did I ever say anything they said was right or wrong, just to take the information as you will and that they've done this thing before (and it ended up being accurate -that- time). I'm not going to be posting exact quotes or linking to posts as doing that would imply legitimacy or the opposite and I'm not going to be doing that.

  11. #39651
    I am Murloc! Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomatoBisque View Post
    A lot of lore issues people have come from either a rose-tinted view of the past or a basic misunderstanding of the story
    God, I hate this pretentious as fuck argument wherever it comes up. "You didn't like the story? Well obviously you are not smart enough". It surely can't be subjective opinion or some shit. People are flat-out wrong. Yep.

    When even Taliesin, the largest WoW shill on youtube says that the Jailer was so bad, undeveloped and uninteresting as a villain that it ruined the story, it is getting harder and harder to argue that SL is some underappreciated masterpiece.

  12. #39652
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    Ahh Blademaster. A blind swordsman so common with DH and weebie cause Samurai so common with Pandas. Did I solve it or did i solve it?
    Imagine getting yet ANOTHER melee class when we have only 1 archer archetype and still no new casters since forever.

  13. #39653
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ercarp View Post
    Found this post where he confirmed accurate details about Legion on the day of its announcement at Gamescom.

    EDIT: In fact, there seem to be several posts where he confirms Demon Hunters as a class and Illidan coming back, but I don't find anything for BfA or SL so it seems like he just got his hands on some info about Legion, but not necessarily for anything else that came afterward (including 10.0). Good to remain skeptical.
    Could be possible he worked at Gamescom and saw something during the stage work there.

  14. #39654
    Quote Originally Posted by ercarp View Post
    Found this post where he confirmed accurate details about Legion on the day of its announcement at Gamescom.

    EDIT: In fact, there seem to be several posts where he confirms Demon Hunters as a class and Illidan coming back, but I don't find anything for BfA or SL so it seems like he just got his hands on some info about Legion, but not necessarily for anything else that came afterward (including 10.0). Good to remain skeptical.
    He said he will delete his account if he is wrong tho lol.

  15. #39655
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    Is the armor change discussion finally over? Can I come out now?
    New fake rumor: WoW is going THAC0!
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  16. #39656
    I am Murloc! Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deventh View Post
    Imagine getting yet ANOTHER melee class when we have only 1 archer archetype and still no new casters since forever.
    If we include Guardian spawning off Feral we have had 6 specs added and arguably all are melee. Guardian is a borderline example. No ranged physical and mistwalker is the only healer. Ideally we would have bow using healers as a new class. Probably why bards are still discussed.

  17. #39657
    Quote Originally Posted by Deventh View Post
    He said he will delete his account if he is wrong tho lol.
    MMO-C accounts have no real value outside of a sentimental one and with people quitting the game/communities that value of putting something like that on the line is very low.

  18. #39658
    Brewmaster SunspotAnims's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ercarp View Post
    If that release date is correct, then that would mean getting our hands on Alpha/Beta a lot sooner as well (maybe as soon as 2-4 weeks after the announcement). It sounds... almost too good to be true. It would also be the shortest amount of time from announcement to expansion release, I think, ever? I could be wrong there though.
    In fairness we could also see this as a situation where the announcement is potentially being made waaay later in development than usual. If the past two years didn't happen the way they did we possibly would've gotten the announcement last November, then it would've been a typical long wait between announcement and release.

  19. #39659
    Got kinda lost in the last few days, anything ever since the 'art' leaked from that print shop?
    Quote Originally Posted by Firedemon View Post
    No. On these forums any updates mean an expansion hint.
    Wrathin comes back? Dragon expansion clearly!
    LK part of a quest? Wotlk 2 clearly!
    Sylvanas working with a death master? Shadowlands clearly!

    At the point we're headed for Wrath of the Shdowlands Dragon Isles Lich and tinkers.

  20. #39660
    I am Murloc! Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    New fake rumor: WoW is going THAC0!
    I would rather talk about that than have grown-ass men whine about how they need to go to deviantart if they want to see some dragon midriffs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Marlamin View Post
    MMO-C accounts have no real value outside of a sentimental one and with people quitting the game/communities that value of putting something like that on the line is very low.
    True, if you quite this account you can just make another. I made this account cause I can't recover Balager for some ungodly reason. Well, at least I'm not making a secret about it.

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