Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

YEah this is my main argument as well. Would I love new classes? Absolutely. But they are not making new classes at any reasonable pace and I'd love to play them now, not when I'm 50 if WoW still exists. Class skins lets them add a lot more.

Basically. Only 3 classes in 16 years. Those just aren't good odds at all. Adding new classes requires re-balancing everything, and we have seen how it takes whole expansions for them to not feel broken. And I don't see this changing anytime soon, so I'm really not up for waiting for years for the possibility of the new class being the one I like. Considering how much of a struggle they have implementing them, they will most likely go for concepts that offer new and interesting gameplay over lore concerns.

So much like AR's, Class Skins would offer that personal immersion and fantasy without affecting gameplay. It's the most efficient way of adding fantasy and immersion for their sake, because as much as those are my main concerns, I can't deny they should not be the priority when adding what is essentially something that affects gameplay so deeply.

So I will take a "Necromancer" that is a reskined demonology Warlock that summons undead instead of demons.

Heck, if they want to add a gameplay effect, it could be interesting to play with altering the magic schools with these skins.

[Nymrohd]

Basically. Only 3 classes in 16 years. Those just aren't good odds at all. Adding new classes requires re-balancing everything, and we have seen how it takes whole expansions for them to not feel broken. And I don't see this changing anytime soon, so I'm really not up for waiting for years for the possibility of the new class being the one I like. Considering how much of a struggle they have implementing them, they will most likely go for concepts that offer new and interesting gameplay over lore concerns.

So much like AR's, Class Skins would offer that personal immersion and fantasy without affecting gameplay. It's the most efficient way of adding fantasy and immersion for their sake, because as much as those are my main concerns, I can't deny they should not be the priority when adding what is essentially something that affects gameplay so deeply.

So I will take a "Necromancer" that is a reskined demonology Warlock that summons undead instead of demons.

Heck, if they want to add a gameplay effect, it could be interesting to play with altering the magic schools with these skins.

Destro could switch to Frost. Infernal becomes a Frost Wyrm.

[TheFirstOnes]

Nvm, I am an idiot, apparently an Embrace already occurred 5-6 years in lore.

[Nymrohd]

Nvm, I am an idiot, apparently an Embrace already occurred 5 years in lore.

Yup, an Embrace happened during Kalecgos' ascension as an Aspect of the Blue.

Though really, the planet got hit by a giant sword and was almost drilled to death since then. Maybe that affects the rotation a bit.

[Mace]

well Elune is now "oh dang maybe i should pay more attention to stuff thats happening" so now that we are down to only 1 aspect being active in the story and the other missing since MoP she might be "hey lets make a new set empowered by Azeroth herself" since she is needed in order to create aspects

I wonder if there will be more of Elune and the night elves. I thought the recent attention would die out because it started as a token.

But Tyrande is a lady and well after the scandals expect more attention from female characters...

So what started off as a token tribute to night elf fans is now being developed as a full fledged story. I am glad about this because it is in focusing on Elune and Tyrande you get the arcane , star moon focus, culture and magic. This was the original core of the nght elves, they are named after the stars, their dark elf identity while equal to the nature one was the primary one, and Elune, Tyrande, the stars, arcane etc were the focus of that half, and it was magical. Azshara focuses heavily on the mage side, but the origin of their arcane mastery comes from the priesthood studying the well and the star moon magic they develop. Malfurion focus drove the druid side heavily and I remember Tyrande was mostly totally ignored. -

It went off tangent to heavily focus on the males and druids because of Malfurion and him being a male and all that - so the night elf starting area was instead forest heavy and druid heavy instead of star/moon heavy with a heavier priestess focus with both magic and martial skills. I would welcome a return to that core.



Why now? Well, with Sylvanas down, the main females are Tyrande, Alleria, Jaina, Elune, Azshara, Thalyssra and Talanji.

Elune represents the cosmic power, Azeroth the titan power, Tyrande would be more prominent because of her recent arc and Elune. Thalyssra and the Nightborne do have a historic connection to Elune, so that storyline would not be limited to alliance playerbase but could involve the horde through the Nightborne.

Void matters would definitely involve Alleria, so we would see more. We would probably have Alleria move to the fore front @Vaedan , @Varadoc she is the most relevant Windrunner sister and the frontline in the void matters and she and the void elves are in need of much more development - while Jaina is t as much needed here...although she might feature if they continue the Kalecgos romance.

I'm not sure what role Talanji would play, she was mostly tied to the loa, and her failure to feature much with Bwonsamdi makes me suspect she might not have much of a role for this next instalment, but she will be back, BFA is still the default levelling experience, so she is still fresh in a lot of people's experience

[NikolaiShade]

Destro could switch to Frost. Infernal becomes a Frost Wyrm.

Bone spikes for destro could work too, Rain of Fire could then become Bone Storm and infernal a little marrowgar

[Vakir]

Theoretically some kind of hyper advanced tech could enforce an Embrace by sufficiently powerful force of gravity exerted on the two moons.

That's right. TINKERS FOR 10.0 BAYBEE.

[Zankai27]

I laughed.

What's wrong about what I said? It's a simple shout move with a dragon name and no actual relation to anything representing the Dragonflights. Giving warriors a "dragon-based class skin based on the single most basic and flavorless element people can find", is just stupid. Find me the actual dragon flavor Warriors have and I'll give it to you.

"Dragon Roar" is pretty non-dragony. Just a fire aoe and that's it. Now, if Prot kept their Deathwing-flavored artifact ability, complete with dragon head and shadowflame, I'd agree, but they didn't, at all.

It is probably the most extreme of the class skins that could still actually work (mostly because destro to frost, affliction to disease and demo to undead really tracks to what we would expect from a Necromancer). Beyond that, see above. A class skin seems so much easier so we might actually get it.

The problem with this kind of thing is it gets super messy. I'd even argue it's too messy even for Dark Ranger -> Hunter and Blademaster -> Warrior, among other suggestions. (I still maintain we can pivot Blademasters as Warcraft Samurai, dial up the Eastern Flavor, and make them feel perfectly at home as their own thing. Samuro's kit in HotS for instance has absolutely no Warrior takes except for Bladestorm, which of course, originally belonged to Blademasters.)

More to my point, doing stuff like "turning Destro into Frost" and Hunters into Dark Rangers would necessitate changing the attributes of their skills. It feels shoddily done if the "Necromancer" isn't doing Frost damage with their Frost spells, for instance. Fire and Fel Fire have the same attribute, but something like that wouldn't. While it's small, it does change things. Some races/enemies have more resistance against Frost than Fire and vice versa, etc.

Warlocks suddenly having pets that count as Undead would probably change more things than it seems as well.

Blademasters historically deal a lot of Fire damage. Are we going to avoid that just to make them work as a Warrior class skin, or are we going to create something that deals more magic damage than Warriors typically do?

How many Hunter spells would deal Shadow damage as a result? Doing it right now with addons like the legendary bow and the quiver is fine because it's a power boost, but skin couldn't really do that without affecting balance in even a small way.

I get why class skins are such an attractive feature, but if a competitor can add two classes every expansion, which in WoW terms is more than the equivalent of a 2-spec class (DHs have two specs, but share a ton of animations. You can't look at Sage and Reaper and say they share animations, so it's a bit more work than that.) then we should be able to expect Blizzard to at least *try* to deliver an amount of effort in new gameplay styles that makes us want to come back.

I just think class skins are too messy to work. I think people don't really consider how complex it is to make it work, rather than just putting that effort into building something new. Like, if they build something new, they don't have to worry about all these possible interactions, *and* they get the benefit of creating an actual new gameplay element. Doing class skins could potentially create a lot of issues on top of existing classes, whereas a new class exists primarily on its own. (Besides the balancing issues of adding any new gameplay styles, but thats just part of developing a game like this.)

[Super Dickmann]

Yeah, it doesn't make any sense to me either. The only explanation I have is that all the timeline crap is nonsense, and only the "main timeline" matters. Souls from other ones are basically just bonus anima or something.

Danuser's explanation, much like many of the most aggressively stupid parts of Shadowlands, is also pointless because 'only prime timeline counts' would solve all of these problems and was already canon before hand.

[Raxacorico]

Class skins are just lazy ways of making multiple new classes at once. Demon Hunter could have just been a class skin for a rogue, etc. Pretty much every single one I saw except for things like Dark Ranger and Blademaster, can just be realized into full classes.

call them however you want, many people including me, would love to play as visually distinctive An'she worshipping Sunwalkers, Lightwell infused Blood Knights, Naaru empowered Vindicators, Rezan worshipping Prelates.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Destro could switch to Frost. Infernal becomes a Frost Wyrm.

Duuuude that would be hella neat.

[Nymrohd]

Danuser's explanation, much like many of the most aggressively stupid parts of Shadowlands, is also pointless because 'only prime timeline counts' would solve all of these problems and was already canon before hand.

It's what happens when you don't know the lore of the game

[Varodoc]

Yes, indeed @Mace, the Ren'dorei will undoubtedly take the spotlight in the inevitable Void Lords expansion, and I will tell you much more than that.

Telogrus Rift, their base of operations, the rift that echoes with the whispers of the great burning one, is located at the very brink of the Void, and so it will become the base of operations for all forces that oppose the Void Lords. When the forces of the Cosmos will confront the Void Lords in their domain, they shall do so from Telogrus Rift, the only allied location tethering on the brink of the Void.

And so both Alliance and Horde should truly be grateful that the cunning Magister Umbric and his followers were able to decipher Drathir's cryptic research and find Telogrus Rift, not only the secrets and knowledge contained there are key to understanding and mastering the power that is the Void, but the Rift itself will act as the main base of operations in the war against the Void Lords. It is only fair and fitting that it is the Ren'dorei who would lead such a fight.

[Nymrohd]

Bone spikes for destro could work too, Rain of Fire could then become Bone Storm and infernal a little marrowgar

Nice, mix Frost and Bones together to make it be something more than a Caster version of either Frost Mage or Frost DK.

[Super Dickmann]

It's what happens when you don't know the lore of the game

Like with Afrasiabi before him I think the main thrust of it is that you don't want to go 'lol no idea' in front of a camera, so you filibuster some bullshit that's never in any evidence and only digs you deeper. For other highlights see also "Outland is a Death Titan" and "Infinite Legions". For Danuser himself that's not even the dumbest thing he's dropped this expansion, that necromancy explanation that contradicts the entire premise of Maldraxxus and multiple quests, including ones made after the interview, takes the crown. Say what you will about Metzen, god knows I have, but at least the dude could take the L.

[huth]

I think that's an important aspect of the Class Skins idea. Overall I do see widespread acceptance for it, it only comes to the details of where it takes things too far or doesn't.

Personally I would take it as far as possible if anything because since 2004, only 3 new classes have been added to the game, and I'd rather have a "Necromancer" that plays like a Demonology Warlock than no Necromancer at all given the track record.

It's a silly argument anyway. Blizzard has straight-up told us that Affliction was actually based on Necromancer/Scourge ideas. Warlock already incorporates Necromancer themes as part of its class design.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, indeed @Mace, the Ren'dorei will undoubtedly take the spotlight in the inevitable Void Lords expansion, and I will tell you much more than that.

You mean the spotshadow, right?

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Class skins are just lazy ways of making multiple new classes at once. Demon Hunter could have just been a class skin for a rogue, etc. Pretty much every single one I saw except for things like Dark Ranger and Blademaster, can just be realized into full classes.

Since Allied Races were introduced 4 years ago, we have gotten 10 new playable races. The previous 12 years, 5.

The idea of "well most concepts can be realized as their own classes" just goes against the reality of Blizzard being able to develop and deliver new classes. So a system that allows for class fantasy without concerning itself with gameplay, is evidently more doable in terms of resources.

I don't think it's inaccurate to call it lazy, but it is very naive to think somehow Blizzard would change how often they add new classes given how much of a hassle it is.

[Blayze]

Warlock already incorporates Necromancer themes as part of its class design.

Exactly, going all the way back to the original Warcraft's Necrolytes.

[Lady Atia]

The other timelines don't actually exist, they're just potentials. What Kairoz did was use the clock artifact to make the alt-Draenor timeline real. This wasn't communicated clearly but WOD actually makes sense.

But that should still leave 2 souls of everyone who existed on both real-Draenor and alt-Draenor. Danuser said the souls merge into a single soul in the afterlife, which doesn't make a ton of sense since they would die at different points in time and be sent to the afterlife independently, and they might have acted very differently during their lives. But it's not the worst lorehole ever.

I think people just want to misunderstand the intend behind Danusers quote. He said that the threads would eventually merge into a rope in the Shadowlands - that indicates for me that AU souls may end up in other afterlives but eventually should merge if everything goes the natural way. MU Garrosh's death in the Sanctum was only possible because of Denathrius and Zoovals machinations - normally he would have had his time in Revendreth and eventually be send elsewhere.

[Mace]

Yes, indeed @Mace, the Ren'dorei will undoubtedly take the spotlight in the inevitable Void Lords expansion, and I will tell you much more than that.

Telogrus Rift, their base of operations, the rift that echoes with the whispers of the great burning one, is located at the very brink of the Void, and so it will become the base of operations for all forces that oppose the Void Lords. When the forces of the Cosmos will confront the Void Lords in their domain, they shall do so from Telogrus Rift, the only allied location tethering on the brink of the Void.

And so both Alliance and Horde should truly be grateful that the cunning Magister Umbric and his followers were able to decipher Drathir's cryptic research and find Telogrus Rift, not only the secrets and knowledge contained there are key to understanding and mastering the power that is the Void, but the Rift itself will act as the main base of operations in the war against the Void Lords. It is only fair and fitting that it is the Ren'dorei who would lead such a fight.

I really hope they do more with it too. I'd like for once these joint faction efforts - usually under something tied to an alliance race, to bring something lasting between the two factions. Suramar should have been something like that, just as Shattrath and Dalaran.

I would hope that Telogrus rift would become that too, even if it is it he void elf home and the void elves are an alliance race - it shouldn't stop it from being open to both factions, just as Shattrath being Draenei didn't stop both factions, nor Dalaran - and so it should have been for Suramar.


But what I would like is that some lasting faction connection that is built upon occurs. The blood elf /draenei connection was greatly muted -- and that's a shame, i hope it gets revived and plays a role, maybe even as a the light's focus point, with the Vindicaar being the light vessel with the Sunwell plateau the base of operations.

With Dalaran, they turned it from Silver Covenant v Sunreavers to Forsaken v Worgen - what I'd like to see there is Dalaran be a place where humans and forsaken , as well as high elves and blood elves actually get on very well, and this can further lead to improved Thalassian relations in Quel'thalas.

finally Suramar ofc, should be a place where night elves and blood elves walk together in this ancient kaldorei capital that views all elves as one, and other perfect place for inter faction connectivity that can actually specifically target Darnassian, Highborne and Thalassian matters in a positive way, where we see druids and Moon priests reconnecting and teaching their Nightborne long separated kin, while at the same time you have blood elves and void elves and it being a place where all these groups actually meet peacefully with goals they both work together with.


Telogrus Rift can become that for a void expansion, which is looking more like 11.0 now.