1. #42561
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulggun View Post
    It's not that easy. They are not dragons just elves pretending to be void dragons.
    It really is that easy actually.

    Since "Ren" in Thalassian means "Void" ("Ren'dorei" are "Children of the Void"), so "Ren'draconis" is Void Dragon.

    So in other words you just said that Void Dragons should become playable in 10.0

    Know that I agree with you, but perhaps we should ask ourselves, who should they join?

    - The Alliance, a faction that already has Void elves and (one) Void Ethereal;
    - Neutral;
    - the horde (do they even have any Void user at all lol?)

    I lean towards the first, but am willing to acknowledge contrasting views.

  2. #42562
    Quote Originally Posted by Snorlax View Post
    He doesn't. People just can't wrap their brains around micro classes so they're latching on to anything but the Dragonflight leak.
    People can wrap their brains around microclasses, they're just a shitty idea.

  3. #42563
    Scarab Lord ercarp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    People can wrap their brains around microclasses, they're just a shitty idea.
    Basically how I feel about them as well. Being too lazy to create a full class and releasing half-assed versions of them under the pretense of them being "micro-classes" just sounds bad no matter how I look at it.

    It's like selling you a car that's missing half its features and claiming that "it's okay because it's a Micro Car™! It's intended to be shit!"

    EDIT: Seriously, which one would you choose:

    - 1 fully functioning car that has ALL the features it needs.

    OR

    - 4 micro-cars: 1 has a steering wheel, 1 has brakes, 1 has a radio, and 1 has an extra seat at the back.
    Last edited by ercarp; 2022-04-16 at 02:48 PM.

  4. #42564
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    Quote Originally Posted by ercarp View Post
    Basically how I feel about them as well. Being too lazy to create a full class and releasing half-assed versions of them under the pretense of them being "micro-classes" just sounds bad no matter how I look at it.

    It's like selling you a car that's missing half its features and claiming that "it's okay because it's a Micro Car™! It's intended to be shit!"

    EDIT: Seriously, which one would you choose:

    - 1 fully functioning car that has ALL the features it needs.

    OR

    - 4 micro-cars: 1 has a steering wheel, 1 has brakes, 1 has a radio, and 1 has an extra seat at the back.
    This is definitely stepping into Voltron territory, where the sum is greater than the individual pieces
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  5. #42565
    Honestly on specs I still think they took the very wrong path in Cata and even more so in Legion. I think the game would have been better off strengthening the core of the class and making specs modifiers. So all specs of a class would have the same core abilities and gameplay loop and specs would augment that base (adding 5-6 additional spells and multiple passives). Talents could even go by base class instead of by spec. For tanks the core gameplay is very much identical with dps; you just focus on spreading your abilities a round a bit more than dps does so you keep aggro everywhere and then have the parallel gameplay of defense. Healers are the outliers I guess but you could make more healer abilities baseline.

    If they had taken such a path, adding more specs and even more classes would be easier. People talk about homogeneity, well we have 36 different specs in this game. In many cases, different specs of the same class feel like entire classes of their own. I think they overdid it with complexity. I understand far fewer people have experiencing the game world as their focus like I do but actually getting everything in any meaningful way in game is impossible because of the level of complexity we expect from each class and spec to the point so many of us are settling with the idea of class skins. In a world where specs were important but did not subsume the importance of the class, things like racial specs (Especially in a cross-faction instanced content paradigm like we will soon have) would be entirely possible.

  6. #42566
    Quote Originally Posted by Snorlax View Post
    No they're not. They're basically just finalizing what specs already are for WoW. Sub-classes within a theme. It just gives a wider breadth for theme and aesthetic than one single thing.
    You're describing the elective specs I proposed, but that's not what the leak detailed. A generic spec you can choose to add to any of your characters is a great idea; what the leak described was a character with only one spec period, which would be great for altaholics, but would alienate people who don't like to make alts, which is a strategy the devs consciously avoid.

  7. #42567
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    Hi, you guys ready for the reveal? I am getting the hype right now, not gonna lie. I really hope Dragonflight is gonna be a good xpac!
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  8. #42568
    Quote Originally Posted by Snorlax View Post
    No they're not. They're basically just finalizing what specs already are for WoW. Sub-classes within a theme. It just gives a wider breadth for theme and aesthetic than one single thing.
    Yes, they are. The fact that they're "like specs" is irrelevant, because specs are attached to an entire class and microclasses aren't.

    They introduce several classes to the game that are abhorrently difficult to balance, because unlike every other class in the game, their viability is solely dependent on a single spec's performance, so if that one spec is at any point less than average, they have no fallback they are just awful and get blacklisted.
    They introduce, for the first time in the game's history, the potential to be locked out of doing content with friends simply because you happened to choose the wrong combination of classes, and now can't even queue for dungeon together because you're the same role--and unlike every other class, who can just respec, you only have one option.
    They add significantly more work anytime even basic class content (e.g. tier sets) gets added to the game, because now you have four more classes that need armor sets designed and set bonuses figured out. Introducing them isn't just a matter of the time investment to produce them for 10.0, it also means signing up to have four additional things to deal with if you ever want something like class halls again, or class quests.
    They are awkward to balance for solo content, because while it's acceptable for a regular class to feel slow or a bit clunky when questing as a healer/tank spec (because they are choosing to do so but have DPS specs available) a micro just is slow or clunky when doing so, because they are a thing which can only ever off-spec that content.
    They are a shit ton more work than just adding a traditional class, because they are not specs. They are single-spec classes. So while adding a normal class is adding a "class kit" and then three sets of rotational spec abilities and shared/specific talents, each individual microclass requires an entire functioning class kit in addition to its rotational setup. i.e. a regular class adds 1 general tab and 3 spec tabs; micro classes add four general tabs and four spec tabs. You'd have less work from introducing a five spec dragon class than four microclasses. The same applies to core mechanics and features, a class generally uses a base mechanic for all of its specs (holy power for paladins, CP for rogues, all shamans using totems as a class gimmick, etc), but microclasses involve coming up with an individual unique mechanic for each spec, instead of making a class with three spec iterations you're making four unique classes.

    They are a shitty idea. Adding them would significantly increase the shit almost every team has to deal with for relatively little gain over just adding a regular class.
    Last edited by Hitei; 2022-04-16 at 03:14 PM.

  9. #42569
    Quote Originally Posted by Pantupino View Post
    Hi, you guys ready for the reveal? I am getting the hype right now, not gonna lie. I really hope Dragonflight is gonna be a good xpac!
    Pantuuuu! So ready! And hyped!!!

  10. #42570
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ercarp View Post
    Basically how I feel about them as well. Being too lazy to create a full class and releasing half-assed versions of them under the pretense of them being "micro-classes" just sounds bad no matter how I look at it.

    It's like selling you a car that's missing half its features and claiming that "it's okay because it's a Micro Car™! It's intended to be shit!"

    EDIT: Seriously, which one would you choose:

    - 1 fully functioning car that has ALL the features it needs.

    OR

    - 4 micro-cars: 1 has a steering wheel, 1 has brakes, 1 has a radio, and 1 has an extra seat at the back.
    4 micro classes simply because i usually only play one spec per char anyways, so micro-classes would give me 4 (wildly) different chars to play with instead of one.

  11. #42571
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    4 micro classes simply because i usually only play one spec per char anyways, so micro-classes would give me 4 (wildly) different chars to play with instead of one.
    On the flipside though. If that one spec is not to yyour liking then you are shit out of luck if you wanted to play that one character.
    With three specs you have different options instead of completely abandoning your character for a different one.

    If I want to experience playing a Death Knight, but I don't like to tank then I can choose to play DPS instead. And if my chosen DPS spec is then further not to my liking then I still have one more DPS spec to fall back to before deciding that Death Knights are just not for me.

    With Microclasses some, like the healer ones, would be out of hte running outright if you don't like actually healing, and only one of them are viable if you like DPSing or tanking.
    Had they all been part of one class then this wouldnt necessarily be a problem. But asking players to level a character to full that they then have no options in which to diversify is pretty poor design.
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  12. #42572
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Yes, they are. The fact that they're "like specs" is irrelevant, because specs are attached to an entire class and microclasses aren't.

    They introduce several classes to the game that are abhorrently difficult to balance, because unlike every other class in the game, their viability is solely dependent on a single spec's performance, so if that one spec is at any point less than average, they have no fallback they are just awful and get blacklisted.
    They introduce, for the first time in the game's history, the potential to be locked out of doing content with friends simply because you happened to choose the wrong combination of classes, and now can't even queue for dungeon together because you're the same role--and unlike every other class, who can just respec, you only have one option.
    They add significantly more work anytime even basic class content (e.g. tier sets) gets added to the game, because now you have four more classes that need armor sets designed and set bonuses figured out. Introducing them isn't just a matter of the time investment to produce them for 10.0, it also means signing up to have four additional things to deal with if you ever want something like class halls again, or class quests.
    They are awkward to balance for solo content, because while it's acceptable for a regular class to feel slow or a bit clunky when questing as a healer/tank spec (because they are choosing to do so but have DPS specs available) a micro just is slow or clunky when doing so, because they are a thing which can only ever off-spec that content.
    They are a shit ton more work than just adding a traditional class, because they are not specs. They are single-spec classes. So while adding a normal class is adding a "class kit" and then three sets of rotational spec abilities and shared/specific talents, each individual microclass requires an entire functioning class kit in addition to its rotational setup. i.e. a regular class adds 1 general tab and 3 spec tabs; micro classes add four general tabs and four spec tabs. You'd have less work from introducing a five spec dragon class than four microclasses. The same applies to core mechanics and features, a class generally uses a base mechanic for all of its specs (holy power for paladins, CP for rogues, all shamans using totems as a class gimmick, etc), but microclasses involve coming up with an individual unique mechanic for each spec, instead of making a class with three spec iterations you're making four unique classes.

    They are a shitty idea. Adding them would significantly increase the shit almost every team has to deal with for relatively little gain over just adding a regular class.
    Maybe the answer to your problems would be to make all specs balanced and build the game around that? "Bring the player, not the class/spec" was a thing back in MoP and it worked. They just have to sit down and do it. I'm sick of seeing some specs performing bad simply because some people bring the argument "oh but one or two of your other specs are good". That's just horrible game design.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    On the flipside though. If that one spec is not to yyour liking then you are shit out of luck if you wanted to play that one character.
    With three specs you have different options instead of completely abandoning your character for a different one.

    If I want to experience playing a Death Knight, but I don't like to tank then I can choose to play DPS instead. And if my chosen DPS spec is then further not to my liking then I still have one more DPS spec to fall back to before deciding that Death Knights are just not for me.

    With Microclasses some, like the healer ones, would be out of hte running outright if you don't like actually healing, and only one of them are viable if you like DPSing or tanking.
    Had they all been part of one class then this wouldnt necessarily be a problem. But asking players to level a character to full that they then have no options in which to diversify is pretty poor design.
    I'm quite sure micro-classes aren't really meant to be a thing for new players - and anyone who plays the game already can be fine with a disclaimer that tells you "this class only has one spec so be sure you wanna play tank/heal/dps on this toon only".

  13. #42573
    Quote Originally Posted by Snorlax View Post
    Exactly. I spend every patch focused on one single spec. Giving me 4 entirely different aesthetics and playstyles is way better than 3 things all within the same theme that I might not even enjoy in the first place is far better.

    It also lets them better ensure that there is something new for everyone between those and the class skins.
    Yeah, but ou would need to keep up with 4 different characters instead of 1. This wouldnt really be like druid where you can hold on to that intellect staff you got while running as tank in SoD to be able to jump immediately into healing in Sepulcher. You would need to level and gear a completely different alt. Getting it through levelling, through all the content, and then only to be worse geared than your old alt would have been.
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  14. #42574
    In modern wow, specs are so wildly different from each other that I don't actually see an issue with 1 spec classes really..

    We may as well have 36 different classes in the game with how differently every single one plays. Yeah, there's tier sets and other such things attached to classes themselves but if it wasn't for existing design every single spec could basically be its own class.

    But I don't think blizz will actually go through with something like that. They would have to probably design around the fact that something is only a healer or only a tank and also would likely create further issues down the line somehow.

    But I guess my point is, I wouldn't put classes sharing a couple of spells across specs or that 'identity' as an actual core reason to say no to 1 spec classes. Only really holding on to the original design of class identity is holding it back.

  15. #42575
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Maybe the answer to your problems would be to make all specs balanced and build the game around that? "Bring the player, not the class/spec" was a thing back in MoP and it worked. They just have to sit down and do it. I'm sick of seeing some specs performing bad simply because some people bring the argument "oh but one or two of your other specs are good". That's just horrible game design.
    It was a thing, but it absolutely did not work. That's the main reason they abandoned it. There's also some elements to this that you can't solve just through balancing - a dungeon group generally won't need two tanks.

  16. #42576
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Yeah, but ou would need to keep up with 4 different characters instead of 1. This wouldnt really be like druid where you can hold on to that intellect staff you got while running as tank in SoD to be able to jump immediately into healing in Sepulcher. You would need to level and gear a completely different alt. Getting it through levelling, through all the content, and then only to be worse geared than your old alt would have been.
    There is absolutely no proof I have on hand, but I don’t think many players actually swap roles on one character.

    A DPS may swap to another spec to try it out or if it’s the strongest at the moment but I have rarely ever met someone who will actually “go healer”/“go tank” even when demanded in raid

  17. #42577
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    and anyone who plays the game already can be fine with a disclaimer that tells you "this class only has one spec so be sure you wanna play tank/heal/dps on this toon only".
    Hunters, Warlocks, Mages, and Rogues don't get this kind of warning (do we? at least not anywhere demanding to read.) and we can only be DPS, so why would the 1 spec classes need that?

    edit: and yes I'd consider a description of "Melee Damage" or "Healer, Ranged Damage or Melee Damage" a description, not a disclaimer.
    Last edited by Archmage Xaxxas; 2022-04-16 at 03:43 PM.
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  18. #42578
    Quote Originally Posted by Archmage Xaxxas View Post
    Hunters, Warlocks, Mages, and Rogues don't get this kind of warning and we can only be DPS, so why would the 1 spec classes need that?
    Also this. Those classes may as well be single specs based on what people are arguing.

  19. #42579
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    I'm quite sure micro-classes aren't really meant to be a thing for new players - and anyone who plays the game already can be fine with a disclaimer that tells you "this class only has one spec so be sure you wanna play tank/heal/dps on this toon only".
    I guess if Blizzard wants to be upfront about how they designed a class really poorly then they could. But that isnt even necessarily the problem. The problem is that you have a class with no wiggle room. You can't swap the spec if it underperforms, or if ou think it's poorly designed a patch, or even expansion. You can't organically swap to it midway through a raid or similar for variety without having to go through the same hoops someone with an alt would have to. You can't swap between roles depending on group composition, and while this is true for many DPS classes, there is generally always room for one more outside Mythic. Pick the tank microclass and you are straight up getting benched if there are two tanks who have priority above you in a roster.

    And that is just the balancing and metagame aspect. Are you really expecting a microclass to get the full class treatment? That is an absurd amount of extra work you are adding onto the class set design workload. Especially when we alreadyy missed out on almost two full expansions of it because of designer burnout. This would be straight up adding 33% extra work for classes that will likely end up with a significantly lower amount of players than "proper" classes.
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  20. #42580
    Quote Originally Posted by Archmage Xaxxas View Post
    Hunters, Warlocks, Mages, and Rogues don't get this kind of warning (do we? at least not anywhere demanding to read.) and we can only be DPS, so why would the 1 spec classes need that?
    Exactly this? I really don't get why this would be an issue

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