Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Lady Atia]

So this confirms that Sylvanas forcibly turned Anduin and he didn’t agree to it.

Not really smelling a redemption for her, lol.

No, it confirmes they already planned to go against Zooval. I smell a redemption arc and I love it!

[therumblings]

Not really smelling a redemption for her, lol.

Sylvanas redemption is one of the most obvious plot points WoW has ever seen, everything in 9.1 has been softening the blow and building up to Sylvanas getting redeemed now that her soul is restored.

[Nagawithlegs]

No, it confirmes they already planned to go against Zooval. I smell a redemption arc and I love it!

It means the opposite.

[Super Dickmann]

So this confirms that Sylvanas forcibly turned Anduin and he didn’t agree to it.

Not really smelling a redemption for her, lol.

The opposite, it implies she gives him his brain back after each outing so she can LARP as him being her partner and is desperately trying to sell him the plan and explain herself to him even once he's a mindslave. She's still fishing for his validation and is trying to justify her control of him at the cardinal moment while he tells her that she's a moron and that Satan is evil.

Like much of everything surrounding her SL-exclusive characterization, this'd be a fine character beat if it weren't for the double whammy of how this exact same character dynamic was(n't) handled with Delaryn in BFA and the fact that Anduin is no one to her. And of course the elephant in the room that is the fact that the Jailer didn't exist until two years ago so this desperate coping mechanism she's got going on as she looks for validation is based around a foundation we never see and a villain who's got all the raw charisma of a mannequin with a groucho marx mustache.

[Lady Atia]

It means the opposite.

No? Anduin double agent confirmed.

[therumblings]

No? Anduin double agent confirmed.

It's not confirmed at all, he explains that he is still dominated against his will, just not constantly mind controlled.

it implies she gives him his brain back after each outing so she can LARP as him being her partner

This

[Sondrelk]

All I know is that without PTR we wouldn't have so many people bitching about Dagger in the Dark 2.0 in Mists to then continually add unintended loyalist quests to the Sadfang Chronicles, complete with an actually different end point where I got to drag Eitrigg around while people flung rotten fruit at him. We wouldn't have masterful self-destructions of story like the 'loyalty of the people' gig that rendered the plot into mush. PTR and full spoilers except for cinematics and end quests have shown their worth purely for being the most tangible effect player bitching has ever had on the story.

I guess there are pros and cons to it, especially in regards to making hte story less infuriating, which as you mention does also make it less memorably bad.

8.1 would have had Tyrande lightly reprimand a Forsaken with her supposed godlike power instead of incinerating a batallion, which in turn could both lead to nothing, or lead to horribly out of character overcorrections on the part of Tyrande.

I do genuinely believe that the problems with the writing is theconstant course correction of an increasingly out of control ship, so to speak. Each story beat has to correct for a previous one that could not be changed for whatever reason, and because of this we end up with inane bullshit that only serves to make the plot increasingly schizophrenic.
Being able to change some of these plotlines on the PTR, however minor might change these outcomes. However I have no idea whether for better or worse. It certainly would make it slightly more consistent I suppose, if only in the sense that the writers conscious or subconscious biases might go unchallenged like the Tyrande Night Warrior thing, or like you mentioned the turn from the Alliance player being humiliated to Vol'jin being humiliated in 5.3.

- - - Updated - - -

The opposite, it implies she gives him his brain back after each outing so she can LARP as him being her partner and is desperately trying to sell him the plan and explain herself to him even once he's a mindslave.

I somehow doubt she gives him cnotrol back each time. What I got out of it was that Anduin is in a similar position to all the former Lich Kings, in a constant battle against the Jailer mentally, and that defying him takes willpower even when he isnt exeting direct control, at which point he has no ability to resist at all.

Regardless it just continues to paint Sylvanas as dunce supreme. At best she is desperate for validation in a rash decision, at worst she is willfully ignorant of how deep the chocolate river around her ankles is.

[Raetary]

So, nothing.
We got nothing new.
At the end of the campaign no less, with 9.2 god knows how long away.

Just more lore drip feeding and "WaIT aNd SeE".

*sigh*
At the very least, i hope this trend of more thoroughly animated cutscenes continues.
Nice jump in quality compared to just utilizing emotes.

[Nagawithlegs]

A little confused to the responses to my post, so I'll explain.

"Sylvanas redemption arc" means a lot of things to a lot of different people. The OVERWHELMINGLY MENTIONED (from what I can see online) version is that she will be forgiven for all her crimes because of the soul-split and will become a hero with characters like Tyrande and Anduin forgiving her. Kind of like that one BFA comic.

Quite a few people speculated that Anduin and Sylvanas became a team in secret to overthrow the Jailer... this cutscene explicitly nixes that idea by following up the Shalamourne cutscene and revealing that Sylvanas "created" Puppet Anduin. He's sad and isn't happy with what she "created". There isn't some grand plan to overthrow the Jailer, she just straight up turned him instead of being a secret hero behind the scenes.

Yes, I think that Sylvanas will do something good in the end. Do I think she will come back to Azeroth or be granted a chief position in the Shadowlands and heralded as a hero with everyone forgiving her? No. Because as this cinematic shows she straight up made Anduin into a puppet to help the Jailer.

tl;dr Sylvanas may do something good but I don't think that's a "redemption arc" when she's still going to be punished as she keeps doing bad things. If it was revealed Anduin and her were working to overthrow the Jailer I may think otherwise, but nope.

[Super Dickmann]

I do genuinely believe that the problems with the writing is theconstant course correction of an increasingly out of control ship, so to speak. Each story beat has to correct for a previous one that could not be changed for whatever reason, and because of this we end up with inane bullshit that only serves to make the plot increasingly schizophrenic.

I wouldn't overstate the effect players have. While the loyalist route and to a much lesser extent the Vol'jin and Tyrande beats changed the way elements of the story were presented, the ultimate end points are never subject to change. It doesn't matter if you can wait and see with Nathanos for 4 patches or beat up Eitrigg while the Horde populace is pro-you when the switch will flip and Sylvanas will still ree out to follow a plan the devs haven't even decided yet and they all swap to peaceniks. In turn, no amount of Tyrande benefits will ultimately alter where her story has been leading from Day 1 and that is to forgive the Horde and Sylvanas because her story was never meant to exist as Blizzard don't care about WC3-style savage night elves and simply want to bring everyone to the state of null harmony as fast as possible.

I somehow doubt she gives him cnotrol back each time. What I got out of it was that Anduin is in a similar position to all the former Lich Kings, in a constant battle against the Jailer mentally, and that defying him takes willpower even when he isnt exeting direct control, at which point he has no ability to resist at all.

Regardless it just continues to paint Sylvanas as dunce supreme. At best she is desperate for validation in a rash decision, at worst she is willfully ignorant of how deep the chocolate river around her ankles is.

I wouldn't compare Anduin to the LKs, since there it was always on and they were able to place their will upon the powers to a large enough extent. With Anduin it's implied he can tell when it's turned on and off since he corrects Sylvanas and tells her that he'll be placed under control again.

She is cast as a moron, but she's definitely having a conversation with real Anduin there and like he tells her, she's screwing herself over. She's definitely a moron, but her trying to escape from the consequences of imposing what she went through in terms of mind control onto someone else could be a decent enough character beat, especially as Anduin tells her she's full of shit. It simply isn't because none of the groundwork is there. This entire plot is premised on downplaying BFA as much as possible, but it still happened, and as we know nothing of how the Jailer got her on board the entire premise of her trust in this plan she's giving everything for under false pretense is left to our imagination and all we have is her putting all her eggs in the basket of turbo Satan.

[Nagawithlegs]

She is cast as a moron, but she's definitely having a conversation with real Anduin there and like he tells her, she's screwing herself over. She's definitely a moron, but her trying to escape from the consequences of imposing what she went through in terms of mind control onto someone else could be a decent enough character beat, especially as Anduin tells her she's full of shit. It simply isn't because none of the groundwork is there. This entire plot is premised on downplaying BFA as much as possible, but it still happened, and as we know nothing of how the Jailer got her on board the entire premise of her trust in this plan she's giving everything for under false pretense is left to our imagination and all we have is her putting all her eggs in the basket of turbo Satan.

We still don't know Zovaal's "problem" with reality so its yet to be seen if he and Sylvanas have a legitimate argument for the universe reboot. But it can be (and will be) argued that not getting into the main antagonist's motivation for literal year(s?) is bad writing.

The cycle is said to be flawed over and over again. Why? Check back in a year.

- - - Updated - - -

So, nothing.
We got nothing new.
At the end of the campaign no less, with 9.2 god knows how long away.

Just more lore drip feeding and "WaIT aNd SeE".

*sigh*
At the very least, i hope this trend of more thoroughly animated cutscenes continues.
Nice jump in quality compared to just utilizing emotes.

The actual quest isn't up yet from what I'm aware. It may have more to it, especially when the other chapters are somewhat lengthy.

[Varodoc]

Imagine including Thrall, Jaina, Anduin, people who've had 15 years of development in the patch about Sylvanas WINDRUNNER, but not Alleria (or the third useless sister).

And people want to pretend "Alliance bias" is a thing KEK.

[Nagawithlegs]

Imagine including Thrall, Jaina, Anduin, people who've had 15 years of development in the patch about Sylvanas WINDRUNNER, but not Alleria (or the third useless sister).

And people want to pretend "Alliance bias" is a thing KEK.

I unironically think that Alleria isn't used in this expansion because she will feature heavily in the next one (Turalyon plot) and some characters like Jaina and Anduin may be taking a break next expansion.

[Sondrelk]

I wouldn't overstate the effect players have. While the loyalist route and to a much lesser extent the Vol'jin and Tyrande beats changed the way elements of the story were presented, the ultimate end points are never subject to change. It doesn't matter if you can wait and see with Nathanos for 4 patches or beat up Eitrigg while the Horde populace is pro-you when the switch will flip and Sylvanas will still ree out to follow a plan the devs haven't even decided yet and they all swap to peaceniks. In turn, no amount of Tyrande benefits will ultimately alter where her story has been leading from Day 1 and that is to forgive the Horde and Sylvanas because her story was never meant to exist as Blizzard don't care about WC3-style savage night elves and simply want to bring everyone to the state of null harmony as fast as possible.



I wouldn't compare Anduin to the LKs, since there it was always on and they were able to place their will upon the powers to a large enough extent. With Anduin it's implied he can tell when it's turned on and off since he corrects Sylvanas and tells her that he'll be placed under control again.

She is cast as a moron, but she's definitely having a conversation with real Anduin there and like he tells her, she's screwing herself over. She's definitely a moron, but her trying to escape from the consequences of imposing what she went through in terms of mind control onto someone else could be a decent enough character beat, especially as Anduin tells her she's full of shit. It simply isn't because none of the groundwork is there. This entire plot is premised on downplaying BFA as much as possible, but it still happened, and as we know nothing of how the Jailer got her on board the entire premise of her trust in this plan she's giving everything for under false pretense is left to our imagination and all we have is her putting all her eggs in the basket of turbo Satan.

Not that the story is bad because of the course corrections in the micro, but rather that thestory ends up being one flip after another simply because by the time a patch is thoguht out enough to make it to PTR the next patch is already being decided in a way that cannot be changed.

It didnt matter how terrible Sylvanas running away from the Horde was handled in 8.2.5, and how much better it would be if the end was Defence of Stormwind, or Embers of Teldrassil, the work was already done on Ny'alotha, at least enough that the story couldnt be changed. So instead what we get is the course being corrected AFTER we have run aground.

In this case whatever happens to Sylvanas won't really matter. No matter how clearly the twist doesnt work the expansion will have work done on 9.2 regardless.


As for Anduin and the LK comparision I would argue that we have no way of knowing just how intense the control was on Bolvar for instance. The Jailer oculd have been intently focusing on him the entire time he had the crown and just didnt break him because the conncetion was too weak across the veil, or it could have been passive control.
Regardless Anduin seems to have some measure of control at times, just with the Jailer being able to assume direct control as it were.

Sylvanas meanwhile does have teh same kernel of quality as she has always had. That being the characteristic that her hate for Arthas has made her into a similar monster.
In that respect Shadowlands does pay off on a plotline that has been hinted at ever since WotLK, that being that her seeming insistence on beating fire with fire in regards to Arthas has ironically made her far worse than he ever was, since her actions are solely on revenge, and done entirely by her own actions. As opposed to Arthas having good intentions, and being under mind control to varying degrees.

The problem of course is as you said. The story has essentially chucked Sylvanas into the deep end and then suddenly dragged har back into the shallows. She got increasinlgy evil as her plans evolved, and then suddenly Blizzard is trying to wring pathos from nothing.

And of course this is all compounded by the fact that we still have no idea what the Jailers plans actually are, or even what Sylvanas thinks them to be. Given her shock at the Jailer "suddenly" enslaving people we can assume she thought the plan innvolved more free will when it really didnt. But what she actually thought the plan was is left to the imagination.

[Varodoc]

I unironically think that Alleria isn't used in this expansion because she will feature heavily in the next one (Turalyon plot) and some characters like Jaina and Anduin may be taking a break next expansion.

Jaina? Anduin?

A break?

Nah

They managed to hamfist Jaina into the Azshara patch while Tyrande was nowhere to be seen, let that sink in. Writers love her too much.

Did Jaina really need to be in this patch over Alleria and/or Vereesa? NO, but Golden loves her too much.

[Sondrelk]

I unironically think that Alleria isn't used in this expansion because she will feature heavily in the next one (Turalyon plot) and some characters like Jaina and Anduin may be taking a break next expansion.

That still doesnt excuse her absence.
Tyrande being absent from the fight against Azshara in Najzatar might be good and all for the pragmatic reason of not wanting too much Tyrande before Shadowlands, but it still meant we have to go with C-list elves instead of getting to see Tyrande square off against Azshara finally.

[AngerFork]

I unironically think that Alleria isn't used in this expansion because she will feature heavily in the next one (Turalyon plot) and some characters like Jaina and Anduin may be taking a break next expansion.

I tend to agree. The elements for a Light/Void 10.0 expansion seem to all be there right now & she will feature heavily with Turalyon. Probably Vereesa will play a major role too, given her work with the Silver Covenant.

It's possible the endgame here is for Alleria to become more of a villain in the next expansion, leading to a completely different dynamic for the Windrunner sisters.

[Nagawithlegs]

Jaina? Anduin?

A break?

Nah

They managed to hamfist Jaina into the Azshara patch while Tyrande was nowhere to be seen, let that sink in. Writers love her too much.

Did Jaina really need to be in this patch over Alleria and/or Vereesa? NO, but Golden loves her too much.

That still doesnt excuse her absence.
Tyrande being absent from the fight against Azshara in Najzatar might be good and all for the pragmatic reason of not wanting too much Tyrande before Shadowlands, but it still meant we have to go with C-list elves instead of getting to see Tyrande square off against Azshara finally.

Azshara lived and is now untethered to N'zoth, meaning that Azshara and Tyrandes inevitable fight got kicked back.

The problem with modern WoW is that it writes stories that take decades to complete and not satisfactory in the moment. If Azshara and Tyrande have an epic fight in 11.0... does it matter when a lot of wow fans who wanted to see it may be dead by then?

[Varodoc]

So that comic that came out shortly before BfA, the one with the ugly faces that became a meme, is going to be the only reunion between the Windrunner sisters, very nice. I totally wouldn't want to see a proper fight between Alleria and Sylvanas, Void vs. Death, and maybe some family reminiscence.

Oh well at least Jaina got more spotlight, the entirety of BfA being about her wasn't enough.

And at least Thrall got to do something too, it wasn't enough that he has been a main character since fucking 2000.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Glad I expected nothing, because apparently there isn't anything. Well maybe a few tid bits here and there in the remaining quests that are still locked behind the buggy mess.