Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[ChronoSul]

He's definitely not the final boss because he's already dead. Meaning we can't kill him in a big cutscene.

He's probably going to be part of the expansion, but not the final boss.

Also please not Light-Void 11.0. Please not Evil Turalyon & Yrel ever.

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11.0 for sure they're gonna open up Dracthyr as other classes, and bill it as a preorder feature.

It's going to happen just to try to push the faction war again :/ Its the only reason they would put Turalyon in charge is to try to push that plot again

[Super Dickmann]

Sylvanas did nothing wrong? I like Sylvanas and even I would call that beyond just a stretch.

I'm taking the piss. The point is the initiative to betray Sylvanas and go to Calia to be enlightened by some bint who has zero relation with their experience on either a racial or religious front was on Delaryn, not on any action on Sylvanas's part. They turned on Sylvanas, not the other way around.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Faction war seems very unlikely at this point, even more so with Cross faction stuff slowly coming into the game.

Bolvar

Yeah I feel like Bolvar was underused in SL but that might of not been the case originally.

[Nymrohd]

Wish they had used Bolvar instead of Sylvanas for the Jailer plot. The way they had used Bolvar in Legion was so solid and having him be subverted by Zovaal would have made far more sense. Sylvanas could have been an unwitting pawn instead of a willing moron; fooled to take certain actions by the promises of the Nine. Ofc the issue remains that if they hadn't made a villain out of Sylvanas, they could not scapegoat all the atrocities on her and that would make any peace make even less sense (unless they actually invested storytelling on it which was never their plan)

[Santandame]

He's definitely not the final boss because he's already dead. Meaning we can't kill him in a big cutscene.

He's probably going to be part of the expansion, but not the final boss.

Also please not Light-Void 11.0. Please not Evil Turalyon & Yrel ever.

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11.0 for sure they're gonna open up Dracthyr as other classes, and bill it as a preorder feature.

No he isn't. Nozdormu is yet to turn into him. Plus, I wouldn't be surprised if they wave off the Murozond kill from Cata and just say that was a Murozond from a different timeline.

[Nymrohd]

Faction war seems very unlikely at this point, even more so with Cross faction stuff slowly coming into the game.



Yeah I feel like Bolvar was underused in SL but that might of not been the case originally.

Bolvar as the villain of SL would have been so much more interesting. The interactions with Anduin would have had so much more depth given Bolvar was pretty much his foster father. They could have actually used Taelia for more than one quest in Zereth Mortis. And yeah, the issue was gameplay and the need for cross faction looming inevitable and thus having to define the story. Thing is, they could have just solved it by letting the adventurers divorce themselves from the factions. We had done so in Legion. If we had spend all of BfA watching the faction was unfold with the planet dying on the background, it would have made sense for the adventurers to actually take the stance of neutrality and force the truce. Problem is, most players would rather keep the war because Blizzard spend nearly two decades doing their best to make us hate each other.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Chopping mainly for space. Your post is overall interesting and I agree with neither BFA nor Shadowlands capturing what made Sylvanas work, but this reading doesn't really work with the intent of the character, because Sylvanas's journey is one from less to more ideological, not the other way around. She begins with a purely value-oriented premise, aiming to maximize the value of the people she presides over and the one she's allied with to achieve one goal and then cut her losses. The Sylvanas of that period doesn't give two shits about the new world order her minions crow about, the superiority of undeath which she considers a terrible curse and doesn't even fully get what tying herself with the likes of Varimathras entails because she's laser-focused on achieving her aim of killing Arthas by any means possible. Putress's rebellion is the rebellion of someone who took the BS she only peddled for momentary gain like their eventual dominion and how there should be death to the living at face value, things the Sylvanas of the time never cared about and only used to drive those in her sway towards her objective. It's only after she dies and sees that hell's waiting for her that she begins to take all these things seriously and work towards the establishment of a real state, complete with positive self-image, reproduction and the preservation and advancement of the extant population, and begins to take on a perspective geared towards long-term existence.

Edge of Night and Cataclysm is Sylvanas's transition from a function-oriented person to someone who must on pain of a fate worse than death actually lead a society and does so to their benefit because it's in her benefit and for the Forsaken it's the transition from people wrapped in self-pity and monomania towards transhumanism and a merging of their living and undead identities towards a project that ups their self-esteem and power but also makes them magnitudes more dangerous to their neighbours. The association of the Horde to the Forsaken you describe is accurate and post-Mists should have been the point where the tail starts wagging the dog as Sylvanas and the Forsaken who've suffered minimal losses by that point while all other races collapsed in the civil war become the de facto power behind a throne occupied by the leader of the by far weakest Horde race. BFA obviously didn't go that route and Shadowlands, while ultimately making the character half-coherent through the book lacks the interest in exploring the above by focusing on Sylvanas's psychodrama at the expense of her as a political leader.

That's a fair point, and I don't wholly disagree—I do think that it still generally does fit with the idea of her being best portrayed as a realistic dictator, though, and I do think that is how she always should've been perceived. I actually do think BfA did present a good opportunity for her to shine at her best—albeit not as Warchief. If only, say, Garrosh hadn't died and was redeemed, or if Thrall took back over instead, or Vol'Jin didn't die, or anyone else was Warchief at all, Sylvanas would have been at her best there. We could've seen her metamorphosis from Cataclysm at its fullest, coming full circle—she has always been a shady kind of person, someone who could've been symbiotically-useful to the Horde but finally show precisely why she is also a threat to it and the stability of Azeroth in general. With her potentially heading the war in the Eastern Kingdoms, the Forsaken could serve as escalators of the war that the Horde can't really reliably shut down. With Quel'Thalas being so generally introverted and avoidant, it would make sense for the Forsaken to try to claim more of Lordaeron and carry out the nastier side of the war machine. It would also allow the whole "Horde baddies" to not be a retread of MoP because it would only be a single faction within the Horde doing evil. For instance, the Kalimdor war could have followed the Horde we know, with them leading the Horde's campaign in Zandalar as a relatively gray faction. Conversely, Sylvanas' Horde could carry out all the attacks we see in Kul Tiras, giving an excuse for the evil shock value actions the Horde carry out throughout BfA whilst keeping the faction itself from out-of-character confused morality. Only from a Watsonian perspective would the Horde be turning evil again because the Alliance perceive the Forsaken as true members of the Horde whereas the Horde as a whole wouldn't really have full intelligence on the situation in the Eastern Kingdoms.

Of course, what I just proposed has plenty of flaws—it still enforces moral equivalence that isn't necessary, it still somewhat excuses everything that the Horde does by pinning it on one person again, and it also leaves open the Burning of Teldrassil and makes it either impossible for it to happen or forces it to be an accident since I doubt that anybody save Garrosh (and only MoP, not Cataclysm, Garrosh) would do something like it. It could be better, but I do think it at least essentially disposes of the main issue with BfA. Under Sylvanas, the Horde lost its identity (by putting an Elf front-and-center and making its main vanguard be a group that is only loosely-aligned to it and meant to operate in the shadows), saw its morality confused (by associating the entire Horde with Sylvanas and pinning every action on her whilst simultaneously having all sorts of "lolevil" actions by the Horde as a whole in Kul Tiras), and essentially retread MoP (by making a Warchief evil). If this route were taken, it would probably not result in a much better plot, but it would at least salvage the worst parts of BfA and potentially allow the Forsaken to also maintain their identity by having all their crimes being pinned on Sylvanas be a Watsonian, not Doylist, move. If Sylvanas must be removed, the Forsaken could've established a facade of reformism, but never really actually changed anything. They might put up a "New Desolate Council", but this group would be nothing like the ones we met in Before the Storm, instead consisting of people like Faranell (who I always thought should've led the Forsaken after Sylvanas), who only use a psuedo-democratic system as a facade to excuse everything they did and help the Forsaken as a whole continue Sylvanas' new world order into the future. In actuality, every "election" would be rigged, every member would be no less villainous than Sylvie, and the Forsaken would only become a relatively more functional, not less evil, society.

I do agree that part of her arc is nevertheless learning that the Forsaken need an actual society—although I did, perhaps, not frame it well by suggesting that Sylvanas lost her ideology, I think that it nevertheless sort of has the same result. The Forsaken are no longer a rebel group but an actual society, and they need to adapt to that. The end result is likely to not be very different from the Scourge—the only difference is that membership is nominally voluntary.

I think the thing I definitely agree on here is that Sylvanas' melodramatic internal pining is what ruined her for me. She was best as a realistic political leader—she was an opportunistic dictator from beginning-to-end-of-actual-Sylvanas. At first she was a rebel leader looking for revenge, using the Forsaken as a vehicle to reach her goals. Later, she realizes that they need to be made permanent, and consequently establishes a new order like the Forsaken were hawking on about. I do touch on that a bit in my original post, because I definitely don't think she ever wanted the new order before Cataclysm. What I meant when I said "ideological" was more in the spirit of "revolutionary"—and, even then, like many revolutionary leaders she was more concerned with herself than any kind of cause, and the cause was a vehicle for her.

I'm not quite sure what I'd do to fix Sylvanas if I had her from beginning-to-end. She is admittedly a rather complex character (by WarCraft standards, anyway) and I don't know how I'd figure out her personality or give her motives. I think she doesn't need that much of a direct arc because she actually works better in things like the WotLK - Cataclysm transition. By being a political demagogue first and foremost, she actually did work much better with the long-form storytelling of World of Warcraft because not everything she did needed to follow an exact end goal—her short-term motives could be variable and she could simply be where she needed and doing what she needed to do insofar as it made some sense. Only by trying to give her a nebulous end goal and thrust her in the spotlight did she lose her mystique and menace. She was no longer a dictator from thenceforth, but another fantastical anti-hero who would go around doing things in the interest of achieving a single narrative goal, however nebulous that goal may be. With an open-ended goal like "don't die", "make a new society" and "make a society that works", there was enough to keep her story going 'til the end of WoW and possibly after. Regardless of the reading, I think Sylvanas was, and always should've been, a dictator at heart—a narcissistic, manipulative person who does whatever she needs to out of self-interest, rather it be short-term gratification like against the Lich King or long-term sustainability like that of her new society. Perhaps she even did have some legitimate love for the Forsaken—Sylvanas was horrified by the prospect of their extermination in Edge of Night. Perhaps it was only out of frustration of seeing everything she worked for destroyed, and perhaps she was as much motivated by selfishness. But, ultimately, she was a dictator, and that was her most prominent personality trait. Without that, she loses what made her unique and becomes a fairly cookie-cutter anti-hero who doesn't really have any goals aside from something nebulous and lofty enough to give her a half-assed """redemption""" that she didn't need. The Sylvanas everybody liked was a villain, just one who happened to be on the right side, and that's what people seem not to be able to do with anti-heroes these days, especially Blizzard.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Bolvar as the villain of SL would have been so much more interesting. The interactions with Anduin would have had so much more depth given Bolvar was pretty much his foster father. They could have actually used Taelia for more than one quest in Zereth Mortis. And yeah, the issue was gameplay and the need for cross faction looming inevitable and thus having to define the story. Thing is, they could have just solved it by letting the adventurers divorce themselves from the factions. We had done so in Legion. If we had spend all of BfA watching the faction was unfold with the planet dying on the background, it would have made sense for the adventurers to actually take the stance of neutrality and force the truce. Problem is, most players would rather keep the war because Blizzard spend nearly two decades doing their best to make us hate each other.

Thats not what I mean or even want. I jsut wish Bolvar was a bit more active then "Ok guys we need to do this." I absolutely loved seeing Bolvar fight Sylvanas with us(Same with Jaina and Thrall). I don't want us divorced from the factions because on some level they still matter but any outright full on war would just make part of BFA look really stupid.

Admittingly humans in the real world can be that dumb but thats beside my point.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Bolvar as the villain of SL would have been so much more interesting. The interactions with Anduin would have had so much more depth given Bolvar was pretty much his foster father. They could have actually used Taelia for more than one quest in Zereth Mortis. And yeah, the issue was gameplay and the need for cross faction looming inevitable and thus having to define the story. Thing is, they could have just solved it by letting the adventurers divorce themselves from the factions. We had done so in Legion. If we had spend all of BfA watching the faction was unfold with the planet dying on the background, it would have made sense for the adventurers to actually take the stance of neutrality and force the truce. Problem is, most players would rather keep the war because Blizzard spend nearly two decades doing their best to make us hate each other.

I think that if it were up to me, Battle for Azeroth would've followed two general plotlines—one is the plotline of the objectors, one is the plotline of the contributors. Some players may side more with Magni, choosing to try to prevent the war from happening at all. Conversely, others may try to chug the war along, weaponizing Azerite in a short-sighted bid at world domination. In my mind, Battle for Azeroth never should've been a black-and-white story of good vs. evil—it should've been one where both factions were in the wrong. A darker, more realistic plot in which Azerite really was the equivalent to plutonium, and Azeroth itself is endangered by the reckless use of her blood to create superweaopns. Azerite in my version of BfA would've been disastrous in use, only rarely demonstrated but always devastating—every major event, like the Burning of Teldrassil, would've involved Azerite being used in some way, and the consequences would always shock both factions. Even the perpetrators of Teldrassil would not entirely expect what would happen. Perhaps, initially, the plan would be to smoke out the Night Elves with firebombings—then, against all expectations, Teldrassil goes up like dynamite when the bombardment starts incorporating Azerite. MAD takes place on Azeroth, and the world suffers for it. Much of it is scarred, and the Third Death really starts to take place. Perhaps the world is not as thoroughly-shattered as in the Cataclysm or Sundering, but it is certainly a disastrous effect. Much of Azeroth would be drawn into war, morality would be muddled, and selfishness would take center-stage.

The war would become more about deescalation, doing as much as possible to extend influence without engagement. The plots of Zandalar and Kul Tiras would follow that theme, being based on the real-life power plays of the Cold War. After Teldrassil, I envision things cooling down to harsh tensions, and they only flare up again in the patches, reaching their boiling point in 8.3 where the war finally reaches its head. Whether or not we'd fight the Old Gods to try to end the war or face an actual confrontation, I don't know, but it would follow that general theme.

As for Shadowlands, I think Bolvar would make a fine Khadgar—if he were still the Lich King. Having a morally-dubious ally leading us through the Shadowalnds would be very interesting. I'd love to see something like that happen. It would be a Death Knight's dream, and it would show us precisely how he is different from – yet still similar to – the other Lich Kings. It would not be so much the end of the Lich King, but Bolvar finally getting to shine and enshrining himself as the true successor to Arthas.

[Cheezits]

Why can't a Dragon themed expansion be about Dragon-related threats? You keep trying to throw everything else into the expansion for no reason. Even the Lifelands has no real tie to the expansion but you are insisting it is possible. The Shadowlands raids were not all different because they were all related to the Jailer and Shadowlands.

I disagree. I think this is the closest thing so far we have had to a Life expansion (outside of Legion at launch) and mostly because of the newer lore establishing what the Lifelands are, who is associated with them and how Dragons are involved.

A) Dragons come from elementals. Currently the elementals are MISSING from the Chronicles magic chart, but Spirit is associated with Life: and Spirit is what causes Elementals to either go crazy (lots of it) or act normally (little to none of it). It's very likely now that Elementals are being lumped in with Life, and the first raid of Dragonflight is elemental themed with super elemental drakes.

B) Elune is necessary for the Aspects to be empowered, as per the "Embrace". Elune also has the power to specially move Ysera's spirit. Elune has been confirmed as a Life goddess (as opposed to Light and/or Arcane) so Elune may have something to do with the Dragons, again tying them to Life. We also have confirmation from Muffinus that we will explore the origins of the Emerald Dream in this expansion which has always been tied closely to Elune.

C) 3/5 of the aspects are tied to either Life (Red and Green) or the Elements (Black). The other two are Arcane (Blue and Bronze) and this can be attributed to their Titan connection, but the majority of them are Life and Elemental.

D) The cutscene in Zereth Mortis has the Oracle speak to us in langauages attributed to Void (Shath'yar) , Order (Titanic), Chaos (Demonic) and... Draconic. Why would Draconic be involved here unless it was just an easter egg? Because Draconic is associated with Light, or more likely, Life: we have seen dragons on Elunaria.

tl;dr There are lots and lots of recent hints that the Dragons are associated with Life, meaning this expansion may very well be "Lifelands" even if we don't go into the realm of life like we did with Shadowlands.

[huth]

They would. Because they did. The problems you listed won't affect Dracthry because they can't be in their taller form out of combat. It's not a toggle like Worgen.

Yes it is and yes they can.

It was actually stated that it is exactly like Worgen.

[Shadochi]

Faction war seems very unlikely at this point, even more so with Cross faction stuff slowly coming into the game.



Yeah I feel like Bolvar was underused in SL but that might of not been the case originally.

Even worse thing regarding bolvar, they removed one of the few launch questlines he had FROM LIVE (not during testing) (saving peeps from torghast)

[Varx]

He's definitely not the final boss because he's already dead. Meaning we can't kill him in a big cutscene.

He's probably going to be part of the expansion, but not the final boss.

Also please not Light-Void 11.0. Please not Evil Turalyon & Yrel ever.

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11.0 for sure they're gonna open up Dracthyr as other classes, and bill it as a preorder feature.

Nozdormu isn't dead and he's going to turn into MU Murozond. Read the interview I linked.

Yrel is definitely being groomed to be a light aligned antagonist given the maghar recruitment scenario and Murozond/Nozdormu is the only being capable of bringing her to us.

Why? I guess we'll find out.

[rhorle]

tl;dr There are lots and lots of recent hints that the Dragons are associated with Life, meaning this expansion may very well be "Lifelands" even if we don't go into the realm of life like we did with Shadowlands.

Everything you are listing is conjecture. Origins of the Emerald dream doesn't mean lifelands. Remember it was created by Freya according to existing lore. All you are doing is taking your head cannon and acting as if it confirms things without a doubt. We also know that the power level of the Aspects was the same as the Primalists so Elune is not necessary at all for Aspects to regain some power.

[huth]

A) Dragons come from elementals. Currently the elementals are MISSING from the Chronicles magic chart, but Spirit is associated with Life: and Spirit is what causes Elementals to either go crazy (lots of it) or act normally (little to none of it). It's very likely now that Elementals are being lumped in with Life, and the first raid of Dragonflight is elemental themed with super elemental drakes.

What are you talking about? The Elements are part of the chart, both the Chronicle as well Grimoire one. They're in the inner circle together with Azeroth.

Also, all Aspects are tied to the Arcane due to being empowered by the Titans.

[rhorle]

Nozdormu isn't dead and he's going to turn into MU Murozond. Read the interview I linked.

We killed Murozond in the lore. He can still appear because of time travel but we can't kill him if he shows up. We would merely be defeating him. The link you provided only stats that the bronze flight is having trouble seeing the timeways and Murozond is "born" at some point.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Nozdormu isn't dead and he's going to turn into MU Murozond. Read the interview I linked.

Yrel is definitely being groomed to be a light aligned antagonist given the maghar recruitment scenario and Murozond/Nozdormu is the only being capable of bringing her to us.

Why? I guess we'll find out.

I didn't mean Nozdormu. I mean Murozond.

Go run End Time. We killed him there.

Meaning we can't kill him in Dragonflight in a big fancy cutscene, he has to survive so we can kill him there.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I didn't mean Nozdormu. I mean Murozond.

Go run End Time. We killed him there.

Meaning we can't kill him in Dragonflight in a big fancy cutscene, he has to survive so we can kill him there.

Admittedly, that was in one of presumably several timelines and time doesn't really work the same way as it does for us for people like Murozond. It's not difficult to asspull a resurrection for somebody who doesn't really do chronology.

[Magenugget]

I really can't believe the alpha is coming soon. I mean both the new talent and profession systems and the new class will all take a ton of work and they had very little to show for the presentation. On the other hand this time they don't have to balance 400 different abilities like with Shadowlands so maybe they can actually push for a Christmas release. I just hope they don't waste too much time on the dragon things.

[Varx]

I didn't mean Nozdormu. I mean Murozond.

Go run End Time. We killed him there.

Meaning we can't kill him in Dragonflight in a big fancy cutscene, he has to survive so we can kill him there.

Nozzy is murozond...

When our nozzy completes the circle and turns into muro we're gonna have to deal with it again. It's heavily implied in the interview