1. #53261
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Admittedly, that was in one of presumably several timelines and time doesn't really work the same way as it does for us for people like Murozond. It's not difficult to asspull a resurrection for somebody who doesn't really do chronology.
    That it doesn't work the same is the reason he cannot die, though. Nozdormu is temporally unique, there's only one of him across all timelines. That was part of Aman'thul's gift. And it seems they remember that part.

  2. #53262
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    We killed Murozond in the lore. He can still appear because of time travel but we can't kill him if he shows up. We would merely be defeating him. The link you provided only stats that the bronze flight is having trouble seeing the timeways and Murozond is "born" at some point.
    Right and we'll have to take care of he yet again to complete the circle.

    Perhaps the fight will have the end time fight playing in the background or something.

  3. #53263
    The Undying Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magenugget View Post
    I really can't believe the alpha is coming soon. I mean both the new talent and profession systems and the new class will all take a ton of work and they had very little to show for the presentation. On the other hand this time they don't have to balance 400 different abilities like with Shadowlands so maybe they can actually push for a Christmas release. I just hope they don't waste too much time on the dragon things.
    They had little to show but they did have some to show.

    It'll start limited like alphas always do, probably only the first zone and maybe not even all classes fully functional. Once everything is implemented that's usually when it jumps from Alpha to Beta.
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  4. #53264
    Bloodsail Admiral Sharby's Avatar
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    Does anyone have high res images of the Alexstraza promo art? I keep finding thumbnails.
    Honorary member of the Baine Fanclub, the only member really.

  5. #53265
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Admittedly, that was in one of presumably several timelines and time doesn't really work the same way as it does for us for people like Murozond. It's not difficult to asspull a resurrection for somebody who doesn't really do chronology.
    It was stated at the time that Murozond existed outside of time and thus implied any death would be final. Even Nozdormu stated it was his death and his future self will cause no more trouble. It will be a retcon to explain it away as time travel shenanigans.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  6. #53266
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It was stated at the time that Murozond existed outside of time and thus implied any death would be final. Even Nozdormu stated it was his death and his future self will cause no more trouble. It will be a retcon to explain it away as time travel shenanigans.
    Fair enough. I'd still say we could get plenty out of him, though.

  7. #53267
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharby View Post
    Does anyone have high res images of the Alexstraza promo art? I keep finding thumbnails.
    Press Kit site - it's only about 122 MB

    https://blizzard.gamespress.com/Worl...nflight-Reveal

  8. #53268
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Fair enough. I'd still say we could get plenty out of him, though.
    For sure but it cheapens it slightly to know that he isn't defeated for good. What I hope happens is a new leader for the infinite appears and we just witness the fall of Nozdormu. The infinite is too good of bad guy for anything to write off completely and Blizzard has hinted that the different types of dragons will all be involved in the future (or fight against us).
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  9. #53269
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    I think that if it were up to me, Battle for Azeroth would've followed two general plotlines—one is the plotline of the objectors, one is the plotline of the contributors. Some players may side more with Magni, choosing to try to prevent the war from happening at all. Conversely, others may try to chug the war along, weaponizing Azerite in a short-sighted bid at world domination. In my mind, Battle for Azeroth never should've been a black-and-white story of good vs. evil—it should've been one where both factions were in the wrong. A darker, more realistic plot in which Azerite really was the equivalent to plutonium, and Azeroth itself is endangered by the reckless use of her blood to create superweaopns. Azerite in my version of BfA would've been disastrous in use, only rarely demonstrated but always devastating—every major event, like the Burning of Teldrassil, would've involved Azerite being used in some way, and the consequences would always shock both factions. Even the perpetrators of Teldrassil would not entirely expect what would happen. Perhaps, initially, the plan would be to smoke out the Night Elves with firebombings—then, against all expectations, Teldrassil goes up like dynamite when the bombardment starts incorporating Azerite. MAD takes place on Azeroth, and the world suffers for it. Much of it is scarred, and the Third Death really starts to take place. Perhaps the world is not as thoroughly-shattered as in the Cataclysm or Sundering, but it is certainly a disastrous effect. Much of Azeroth would be drawn into war, morality would be muddled, and selfishness would take center-stage.

    The war would become more about deescalation, doing as much as possible to extend influence without engagement. The plots of Zandalar and Kul Tiras would follow that theme, being based on the real-life power plays of the Cold War. After Teldrassil, I envision things cooling down to harsh tensions, and they only flare up again in the patches, reaching their boiling point in 8.3 where the war finally reaches its head. Whether or not we'd fight the Old Gods to try to end the war or face an actual confrontation, I don't know, but it would follow that general theme.

    As for Shadowlands, I think Bolvar would make a fine Khadgar—if he were still the Lich King. Having a morally-dubious ally leading us through the Shadowalnds would be very interesting. I'd love to see something like that happen. It would be a Death Knight's dream, and it would show us precisely how he is different from – yet still similar to – the other Lich Kings. It would not be so much the end of the Lich King, but Bolvar finally getting to shine and enshrining himself as the true successor to Arthas.
    The question really is, what is the narrative goal of the expansion. BfA managed the following. It removed the Warchief role, it showed Azshara as a free agent, it wrapped up the N'zoth story and it introduced the Shadowlands story. Was a faction truce also a narrative goal? I am not sure. Blizzard resisted cross faction gameplay for PvE for years after the problem had been glaringly obvious and I am unsure that 9.2.5 will have enough of an effect (especially without cross-faction guilds).

    I think the only goal that was achieved somewhat well was Azshara. The short was "magnificent", her VA did her justice throughout Nazjatar, her presence in Nyalotha was perfect. Really only thing that went wrong for her was how bad her raid encounter was.
    Everything else went like crap. Shadowlands story was telegraphed but to this day if you don't read the novel the actual story, the character motivations are mostly opaque. Oh they are implied and people largely gathered what was happening but they are not really presented at any point with the required clarity.
    The Warchief issue? I'm of two minds on whether the Horde is better without a Warchief. On one hand, the Horde now includes several nations with significant power. The oath was in the past undertaken out of loyalty to Thrall's Horde or out of desperation. Yet the Highmountain joined out of friendship to their own race, the Nightborne joined out of I guess, curiosity? and the Zandalari under Talan'ji definitely don't seem willing to be subservient. Which means that if they wanted to get rid of the Warchief it could have been done through politics, not by the forceful removal of yet another Warchief. On the other hand it used to be part of the identity of the Horde but that has been diluted so much; from a bunch of strugglers they now include no less than three ancient civilizations that are older than the humans and dwarves who were their main opponents.

    As for the truce, we all know that's bullshit. There was nothing satisfactory about how the war ended. Alliance players had to go through the Burning and Brennadam and the devs chose to make that story so how that could ever lead to a truce is beyond me.

    What I'd have done is use N'zoth. It would have been N'zoth who caused the war by having traitors in both factions. have both factions commit war crimes but also make those war crimes work towards faction pride instead of kick the dog moments. Have the Alliance kill Horde soldiers, not set fire to random fox furries in a desert in the middle of nowhere. Have the Horde strike a military target in Kul Tiras with the Plague or an Arcane Bomb v2, not a town with civilians with parents impaled in front of their children. Don't make the war feel so one sided and don't make the factions so stupid. The Horde loses constantly and then suddenly fully reverses in a single patch because of Azshara? Alliance destroys the entire Zandalari fleet yet then goes to murder Rastakhan to significant danger (and pointless war crimes) even though the military goal was achieved?
    Then when N'zoth is released make him an actual threat that forces the factions to work together or face extinction. You can go with sheer pragmatism by having him assault the factions directly and almost win, using Wrathion and Magni to negotiate a truce. Or maybe go for feeling and have some tragedy; have Horde assault an alliance location only to find the K'thir doing actually "kick the dog" things to the civilians and then having the Horde commander go "Screw it, we are saving the civilians" with a similar scenario on the other side. Make the truce feel organic.

  10. #53270
    About the Murozond thing, they could just make it so that future and past us help in his defeat in an epic raid fight where we persue him in many different places until ending up in end times again with our former selves killing him there again.

  11. #53271
    The Patient JDBlou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    I didn't mean Nozdormu. I mean Murozond.

    Go run End Time. We killed him there.

    Meaning we can't kill him in Dragonflight in a big fancy cutscene, he has to survive so we can kill him there.
    By defeating Deathwing, that timeline resulting in a Murozond was closed off, but it's still an eventuality by predestination. We'll see Murozond by end of expansion.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    For sure but it cheapens it slightly to know that he isn't defeated for good. What I hope happens is a new leader for the infinite appears and we just witness the fall of Nozdormu. The infinite is too good of bad guy for anything to write off completely and Blizzard has hinted that the different types of dragons will all be involved in the future (or fight against us).

    Nozdormu says: At last it has come to pass. The moment of my demise. The loop is closed. My future self will cause no more harm.
    Nozdormu says: Still, in time, I will... fall to madness. And you, heroes... will vanquish me. The cycle will repeat. So it goes.


    It's just a matter of time. The when or where isn't set.
    Last edited by JDBlou; 2022-04-22 at 10:35 PM.
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  12. #53272
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    I didn't mean Nozdormu. I mean Murozond.

    Go run End Time. We killed him there.

    Meaning we can't kill him in Dragonflight in a big fancy cutscene, he has to survive so we can kill him there.
    I don't think it works that way for Infinite Dragons.

    They can move about the timelines however they please. Nozdormu is still alive and will create Murozond eventually. Who will probably perceive how we killed the previous Murozond.

    The only way to kill him for sure is to kill Nozdormu and stop him from ever existing. Which is a concept I think the Deaths of Chromie was hinting at. The only way to really kill an Infinite Dragon is to kill their bronze self.

  13. #53273
    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    I don't think it works that way for Infinite Dragons.

    They can move about the timelines however they please. Nozdormu is still alive and will create Murozond eventually. Who will probably perceive how we killed the previous Murozond.

    The only way to kill him for sure is to kill Nozdormu and stop him from ever existing. Which is a concept I think the Deaths of Chromie was hinting at. The only way to really kill an Infinite Dragon is to kill their bronze self.
    Or trap the Infinite somehow.

  14. #53274
    Regarding Murozond, they could make it more tragic by having Nozdormu die in a raid while turning into, or shortly after turning into Murozond. The different timelines allow for that, as someone previously said, the End Times was just A timeline.

    And then someone else could take leadership of the Bronze. Probably Anachronos since he is the heir.

  15. #53275
    The Unstoppable Force Chickat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    In thinking about it, you know what is absolutely criminal Blizzard hasn't brought back?
    Quivers.

    The game already supported them, had several appearances available, and they were tied to items.

    Just add a vendor back on a hunter trainer somewhere and we are golden.
    Yeah I kinda think a very minor alternate in advancement system could be quivers relics tomes etc. They be could just have slots for 2 or 3 special gems plus level up in item level with some kind of power. The gems would be like legion relics. Extra talents. Very simple. If they ever do borrowed power again. Lots of quiver ammo pouches appearances to collect etc.

  16. #53276
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDBlou View Post
    It's just a matter of time. The when or where isn't set.
    Right. We haven't seen when he turns into Murozond yet. Be we have seen where he is ultimately defeated. It takes some of the wind out of the sails a little because it is just a "set back" and not truly stopping him. It is the same case with anyone reused but we usually don't know they are for sure dead until they stop popping up. Think Garrosh being a pile of ashes means he likely can't show up every again.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  17. #53277
    The Unstoppable Force Chickat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by micwini View Post

    Interesting. 2022 release after all, like Scaleface predicted?
    I doubt it. Not with season 4. I could see a feb release though. 6 months of season 3 and then 5 of season 4. Prepatch in Jan. Alpha in may. Long alpha for lots of time for feedback.

  18. #53278
    The Patient JDBlou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Right. We haven't seen when he turns into Murozond yet. Be we have seen where he is ultimately defeated. It takes some of the wind out of the sails a little because it is just a "set back" and not truly stopping him. It is the same case with anyone reused but we usually don't know they are for sure dead until they stop popping up. Think Garrosh being a pile of ashes means he likely can't show up every again.
    I mean an end of raid boss would probably be a more epic fight with a big, bad time dragon more than a 5 man dungeon ever could.
    Ethereals4Midnight

  19. #53279
    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    Yeah I kinda think a very minor alternate in advancement system could be quivers relics tomes etc. They be could just have slots for 2 or 3 special gems plus level up in item level with some kind of power. The gems would be like legion relics. Extra talents. Very simple. If they ever do borrowed power again. Lots of quiver ammo pouches appearances to collect etc.
    I honestly would like more equipment slots. Everyone could get back the ranged/relic slot and imo I'd love a third trinket slot (though nowadays it seems most trinkets are on use)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    I doubt it. Not with season 4. I could see a feb release though. 6 months of season 3 and then 5 of season 4. Prepatch in Jan. Alpha in may. Long alpha for lots of time for feedback.
    I always hope for a longer pre-expac period. Gives us the new talent system for more than 2-3 weeks on live before the expac. Best test it can get.

  20. #53280
    The Unstoppable Force Chickat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luck4 View Post
    I don't think they'll release WOTLK Classic and Dragonflight in the same quarter. Still on Q1 2023 boat.
    I agree. I think we are just in for a really long alpha beta cycle. I could even see potentially the prepatch coming December with the expansion in February. That way people have plenty of time for evoker play.

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