1. #53301
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    As long as the visage can be any race, evoker can stay unique to dracthyr
    Pretty much this, let people go Drakthyr and choose their visage.

  2. #53302
    The Undying Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilithvia View Post
    Drac'thur will eventually be able to play other classes, and other races will eventually be able to be evokers
    Uh, that literally says no other race will be able to play an Evoker.

    I highly doubt you'll see Dracthyr be other classes, but we'll see what happens.

  3. #53303
    Quote Originally Posted by Malorne the White Stag View Post
    That literally says it's exceedingly unlikely for evokers to be other races. Other classes for dracthyr sound cool though and I like the little tidbit they learn from other races down the line
    The thing is, they are already considering letting dracthyr fight in visage form. If they can fight in visage form then the evoker's tie to the unique physiology of the dracthyr (that name is stupid) is already broken.

  4. #53304
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    Kind of my thoughts. DF seems to very much pick up where BfA left off and there was a whole unexplored arc on how the elemental planes became highly unstable after the events of Legion.
    Since elementals are native to Azeroth it would be cool to find out that the Titans actively harmed the world soul be imprisoning them. Part of me still thinks that Azeroth isn't a Titan but a First-One. Since we have an expanded cosmos it would explain why Azeroth has been fought over by so many and why other titan souls like Argus wasn't as big of a deal for the Legion to have corrupted.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  5. #53305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Sylvanas had no objection to them following her, hence the ample dark rangers who went with her. They decided to fall on their swords for Calia without Sylvanas's intervention.
    Literally right after Sylvanas had told them they meant nothing to her and left them to die.

  6. #53306
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    The thing is, they are already considering letting dracthyr fight in visage form. If they can fight in visage form then the evoker's tie to the unique physiology of the dracthyr (that name is stupid) is already broken.
    Not nessacarily. They could easily have it be a "in the moment" transformation. In order to have other races become Evokers they would need to create a lore reason for those races to be first transformed into Dragonkin. You are approaching the Dragon form as if it was the same as a druid form. The druid doesn't become a bear/moonkin/cat/tree. They just take that form. The Drac'thyr can take a humanoid form but do not actually become that form.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  7. #53307
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilithvia View Post
    Literally right after Sylvanas had told them they meant nothing to her and left them to die.
    She told this to the vast crowd of tards. We know from the very next loyalist quests that the Dark Rangers knew what was up and from Shadows Rising that many dark rangers, belf and night elf alike stuck around. But Delaryn chose to instead join Good Queen Calia and the nu-undead. Sylvanas did nothing wrong, the betrayal was all on the oxygen thieves that are the entire nu-undead race.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  8. #53308
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    They would. Because they did. The problems you listed won't affect Dracthry because they can't be in their taller form out of combat. It's not a toggle like Worgen.
    Dude, what are you fucking talking about. They have said multiple times you can, even comparing it to the Worgen form directly. Why is literally every other post you make on these subjects just blatant lies and misinformation?

  9. #53309
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Sylvanas had no objection to them following her, hence the ample dark rangers who went with her. They decided to fall on their swords for Calia without Sylvanas's intervention.
    I think the main issue is that WoW has never portrayed Sylvanas in what I consider to be her canonical (as per WarCraft III) and "proper" portrayal—she is, to me, not really a fantastical hero like all her counterparts. In a way, the Sylvanas of WC3 - Cataclysm was absolutely the kind of person that we see in real life very often. She was a revolutionary leader like any you could name in our reality—someone narcissistic, clever, and driven by a personal sense of retributive justice. She desired little more than to achieve short-term ends which happened to align with those of others, granting her the external visage of someone dedicated to the removal of a tyrant above all else. Her narcissism and charisma worked together to create a cult of personality among the Forsaken—she did not seem to deliberately invoke this, but she nevertheless embraced it later down the line. Like any dictator, she saw herself as someone inherently superior to others. She did not, perhaps, think of herself as a perfect specimen, but she certainly had a high opinion of herself and seemed to see the world as revolving around her. This made her a very interesting character.

    Sylvanas, to me, never should have been anything like either her BfA or Shadowlands self. She is, in my mind, best exemplified in Cataclysm as the very model of a realistic revolutionary leader. What happened with her there was a fairly earnest portrayal of precisely what happens to revolutionary leaders after they take power. From an abstract, fantastical perspective, she reflects the same tendencies as other, real-life dictators often do—after her retribution is wrought, she learns of the dangers awaiting her should she die. Initially, Sylvanas actively seeks death, but she ends up experiencing reality at full force, just like a dictator does when they realize that their noble causes no longer justify the means they used to begin with. Like a dictatorial revolutionary leader, Sylvanas is horrified by the realization of how much danger she is in, and her paranoia kicks in. Self-preservation becomes the name of the game—society is restructured around her, her preexisting cult of personality amplified to absurd levels. She begins to act no different than the Lich King, and perhaps doesn't even want to see herself as different anymore.

    "Do you know the Tsar? I'm like the Tsar" was Stalin's explanation of his role to his mother, which is very reminiscent of Sylvanas' snark to Garrosh. She knows that she is like the Lich King, but no longer cares. She has lost her motivation, the facade of ideology, and the desire to create a better world (even if that better world is centralized around her). Instead, Sylvanas has become more realistic in her goals. Survival is the name of the game, so her actions are driven by paranoia and selfishness. She sets off to follow in the footsteps of her predecessors—like how Stalin reconquered old territories of Tsarist Russia and practically rebuilt the old empire under a red banner, Sylvanas and the Forsaken follow in the footsteps of Arthas to conquer Lordaeron. At the end of the day, this is pretty typical for a political demagogue like Sylvanas, and her arc from WarCraft III - Cataclysm followed that. The mistake that was made in BfA and Shadowlands was giving her too much of a motivation beyond survival—it ultimately ruined the residual profundity of the characters. With her now-muddled motives and her thrust into the spotlight, she could no longer be a proper dictator. She lost her paranoia, a central element of any dictator, and she lost her scheming nature. Originally, the Forsaken's relationship with the Horde post-Cataclysm was that of a collaborationist regime overseas. Like how real-life dictators will often make deals with overseas superpowers to enshrine their legitimacy, Sylvanas had her allies in the Horde protect her because she knew that it would be in their interest. Nobody liked her, but that doesn't mean they could get rid of her. If only she had never retroactively been in cahoots with the Jailer, she'd really be the most realistic leader in World of Warcraft for this reason. She used to be the perfect portrayal of a selfish, power-hungry dictator using a superpower as their money cow.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by KayRule View Post
    Dude, what are you fucking talking about. They have said multiple times you can, even comparing it to the Worgen form directly. Why is literally every other post you make on these subjects just blatant lies and misinformation?
    I think there's a further sense of irony that their vertical advantage is actually worse than that of normal Drakes if we had them as a playable class.

  10. #53310
    The Undying Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Interview just confirmed that Murozond will happen in the future. My money is on him being the final boss for sure.

    That's what gonna lead to Yrel coming to our time line and setting up 11.0 light vs void.

    https://www.wowhead.com/news/warcraf...nos-the-326792
    He's definitely not the final boss because he's already dead. Meaning we can't kill him in a big cutscene.

    He's probably going to be part of the expansion, but not the final boss.

    Also please not Light-Void 11.0. Please not Evil Turalyon & Yrel ever.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lilithvia View Post
    Drac'thur will eventually be able to play other classes, and other races will eventually be able to be evokers
    https://i.imgur.com/mcAqCmF.png[/IMG]
    11.0 for sure they're gonna open up Dracthyr as other classes, and bill it as a preorder feature.
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  11. #53311
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    With all the interview and additional info that is coming in I am gaining even more faith that DF system wise is going to be good at least on launch. Hopefully they back it up with a good patch cycle.

    Also hype that alpha has been shipped so based on previous cycles we should get it before end of June.
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  12. #53312
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    "Do you know the Tsar? I'm like the Tsar" was Stalin's explanation of his role to his mother, which is very reminiscent of Sylvanas' snark to Garrosh. She knows that she is like the Lich King, but no longer cares. She has lost her motivation, the facade of ideology, and the desire to create a better world (even if that better world is centralized around her). Instead, Sylvanas has become more realistic in her goals.
    Chopping mainly for space. Your post is overall interesting and I agree with neither BFA nor Shadowlands capturing what made Sylvanas work, but this reading doesn't really work with the intent of the character, because Sylvanas's journey is one from less to more ideological, not the other way around. She begins with a purely value-oriented premise, aiming to maximize the value of the people she presides over and the one she's allied with to achieve one goal and then cut her losses. The Sylvanas of that period doesn't give two shits about the new world order her minions crow about, the superiority of undeath which she considers a terrible curse and doesn't even fully get what tying herself with the likes of Varimathras entails because she's laser-focused on achieving her aim of killing Arthas by any means possible. Putress's rebellion is the rebellion of someone who took the BS she only peddled for momentary gain like their eventual dominion and how there should be death to the living at face value, things the Sylvanas of the time never cared about and only used to drive those in her sway towards her objective. None of these things matter to her as she intends to die after she gets it done. It's only after she dies and sees that hell's waiting for her that she begins to take all these things seriously and work towards the establishment of a real state, complete with positive self-image, reproduction and the preservation and advancement of the extant population, and begins to take on a perspective geared towards long-term existence.

    Edge of Night and Cataclysm is Sylvanas's transition from a function-oriented person to someone who must on pain of a fate worse than death actually lead a society and does so to their benefit because it's in her benefit and for the Forsaken it's the transition from people wrapped in self-pity and monomania towards transhumanism and a merging of their living and undead identities towards a project that ups their self-esteem and power but also makes them magnitudes more dangerous to their neighbours. The association of the Horde to the Forsaken you describe is accurate and post-Mists should have been the point where the tail starts wagging the dog as Sylvanas and the Forsaken who've suffered minimal losses by that point while all other races collapsed in the civil war become the de facto power behind a throne occupied by the leader of the by far weakest Horde race. BFA obviously didn't go that route and Shadowlands, while ultimately making the character half-coherent through the book lacks the interest in exploring the above by focusing on Sylvanas's psychodrama at the expense of her as a political leader.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2022-04-22 at 09:15 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  13. #53313
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    He's definitely not the final boss because he's already dead. Meaning we can't kill him in a big cutscene.

    He's probably going to be part of the expansion, but not the final boss.

    Also please not Light-Void 11.0. Please not Evil Turalyon & Yrel ever.

    - - - Updated - - -



    11.0 for sure they're gonna open up Dracthyr as other classes, and bill it as a preorder feature.
    It's going to happen just to try to push the faction war again :/ Its the only reason they would put Turalyon in charge is to try to push that plot again

  14. #53314
    Quote Originally Posted by Snorlax View Post
    Sylvanas did nothing wrong? I like Sylvanas and even I would call that beyond just a stretch.
    I'm taking the piss. The point is the initiative to betray Sylvanas and go to Calia to be enlightened by some bint who has zero relation with their experience on either a racial or religious front was on Delaryn, not on any action on Sylvanas's part. They turned on Sylvanas, not the other way around.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  15. #53315
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Faction war seems very unlikely at this point, even more so with Cross faction stuff slowly coming into the game.

    Bolvar
    Yeah I feel like Bolvar was underused in SL but that might of not been the case originally.
    Last edited by Aeluron Lightsong; 2022-04-22 at 09:28 PM.
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  16. #53316
    Wish they had used Bolvar instead of Sylvanas for the Jailer plot. The way they had used Bolvar in Legion was so solid and having him be subverted by Zovaal would have made far more sense. Sylvanas could have been an unwitting pawn instead of a willing moron; fooled to take certain actions by the promises of the Nine. Ofc the issue remains that if they hadn't made a villain out of Sylvanas, they could not scapegoat all the atrocities on her and that would make any peace make even less sense (unless they actually invested storytelling on it which was never their plan)

  17. #53317
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    He's definitely not the final boss because he's already dead. Meaning we can't kill him in a big cutscene.

    He's probably going to be part of the expansion, but not the final boss.

    Also please not Light-Void 11.0. Please not Evil Turalyon & Yrel ever.

    - - - Updated - - -



    11.0 for sure they're gonna open up Dracthyr as other classes, and bill it as a preorder feature.
    No he isn't. Nozdormu is yet to turn into him. Plus, I wouldn't be surprised if they wave off the Murozond kill from Cata and just say that was a Murozond from a different timeline.

  18. #53318
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Faction war seems very unlikely at this point, even more so with Cross faction stuff slowly coming into the game.



    Yeah I feel like Bolvar was underused in SL but that might of not been the case originally.
    Bolvar as the villain of SL would have been so much more interesting. The interactions with Anduin would have had so much more depth given Bolvar was pretty much his foster father. They could have actually used Taelia for more than one quest in Zereth Mortis. And yeah, the issue was gameplay and the need for cross faction looming inevitable and thus having to define the story. Thing is, they could have just solved it by letting the adventurers divorce themselves from the factions. We had done so in Legion. If we had spend all of BfA watching the faction was unfold with the planet dying on the background, it would have made sense for the adventurers to actually take the stance of neutrality and force the truce. Problem is, most players would rather keep the war because Blizzard spend nearly two decades doing their best to make us hate each other.

  19. #53319
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Chopping mainly for space. Your post is overall interesting and I agree with neither BFA nor Shadowlands capturing what made Sylvanas work, but this reading doesn't really work with the intent of the character, because Sylvanas's journey is one from less to more ideological, not the other way around. She begins with a purely value-oriented premise, aiming to maximize the value of the people she presides over and the one she's allied with to achieve one goal and then cut her losses. The Sylvanas of that period doesn't give two shits about the new world order her minions crow about, the superiority of undeath which she considers a terrible curse and doesn't even fully get what tying herself with the likes of Varimathras entails because she's laser-focused on achieving her aim of killing Arthas by any means possible. Putress's rebellion is the rebellion of someone who took the BS she only peddled for momentary gain like their eventual dominion and how there should be death to the living at face value, things the Sylvanas of the time never cared about and only used to drive those in her sway towards her objective. It's only after she dies and sees that hell's waiting for her that she begins to take all these things seriously and work towards the establishment of a real state, complete with positive self-image, reproduction and the preservation and advancement of the extant population, and begins to take on a perspective geared towards long-term existence.

    Edge of Night and Cataclysm is Sylvanas's transition from a function-oriented person to someone who must on pain of a fate worse than death actually lead a society and does so to their benefit because it's in her benefit and for the Forsaken it's the transition from people wrapped in self-pity and monomania towards transhumanism and a merging of their living and undead identities towards a project that ups their self-esteem and power but also makes them magnitudes more dangerous to their neighbours. The association of the Horde to the Forsaken you describe is accurate and post-Mists should have been the point where the tail starts wagging the dog as Sylvanas and the Forsaken who've suffered minimal losses by that point while all other races collapsed in the civil war become the de facto power behind a throne occupied by the leader of the by far weakest Horde race. BFA obviously didn't go that route and Shadowlands, while ultimately making the character half-coherent through the book lacks the interest in exploring the above by focusing on Sylvanas's psychodrama at the expense of her as a political leader.
    That's a fair point, and I don't wholly disagree—I do think that it still generally does fit with the idea of her being best portrayed as a realistic dictator, though, and I do think that is how she always should've been perceived. I actually do think BfA did present a good opportunity for her to shine at her best—albeit not as Warchief. If only, say, Garrosh hadn't died and was redeemed, or if Thrall took back over instead, or Vol'Jin didn't die, or anyone else was Warchief at all, Sylvanas would have been at her best there. We could've seen her metamorphosis from Cataclysm at its fullest, coming full circle—she has always been a shady kind of person, someone who could've been symbiotically-useful to the Horde but finally show precisely why she is also a threat to it and the stability of Azeroth in general. With her potentially heading the war in the Eastern Kingdoms, the Forsaken could serve as escalators of the war that the Horde can't really reliably shut down. With Quel'Thalas being so generally introverted and avoidant, it would make sense for the Forsaken to try to claim more of Lordaeron and carry out the nastier side of the war machine. It would also allow the whole "Horde baddies" to not be a retread of MoP because it would only be a single faction within the Horde doing evil. For instance, the Kalimdor war could have followed the Horde we know, with them leading the Horde's campaign in Zandalar as a relatively gray faction. Conversely, Sylvanas' Horde could carry out all the attacks we see in Kul Tiras, giving an excuse for the evil shock value actions the Horde carry out throughout BfA whilst keeping the faction itself from out-of-character confused morality. Only from a Watsonian perspective would the Horde be turning evil again because the Alliance perceive the Forsaken as true members of the Horde whereas the Horde as a whole wouldn't really have full intelligence on the situation in the Eastern Kingdoms.

    Of course, what I just proposed has plenty of flaws—it still enforces moral equivalence that isn't necessary, it still somewhat excuses everything that the Horde does by pinning it on one person again, and it also leaves open the Burning of Teldrassil and makes it either impossible for it to happen or forces it to be an accident since I doubt that anybody save Garrosh (and only MoP, not Cataclysm, Garrosh) would do something like it. It could be better, but I do think it at least essentially disposes of the main issue with BfA. Under Sylvanas, the Horde lost its identity (by putting an Elf front-and-center and making its main vanguard be a group that is only loosely-aligned to it and meant to operate in the shadows), saw its morality confused (by associating the entire Horde with Sylvanas and pinning every action on her whilst simultaneously having all sorts of "lolevil" actions by the Horde as a whole in Kul Tiras), and essentially retread MoP (by making a Warchief evil). If this route were taken, it would probably not result in a much better plot, but it would at least salvage the worst parts of BfA and potentially allow the Forsaken to also maintain their identity by having all their crimes being pinned on Sylvanas be a Watsonian, not Doylist, move. If Sylvanas must be removed, the Forsaken could've established a facade of reformism, but never really actually changed anything. They might put up a "New Desolate Council", but this group would be nothing like the ones we met in Before the Storm, instead consisting of people like Faranell (who I always thought should've led the Forsaken after Sylvanas), who only use a psuedo-democratic system as a facade to excuse everything they did and help the Forsaken as a whole continue Sylvanas' new world order into the future. In actuality, every "election" would be rigged, every member would be no less villainous than Sylvie, and the Forsaken would only become a relatively more functional, not less evil, society.

    I do agree that part of her arc is nevertheless learning that the Forsaken need an actual society—although I did, perhaps, not frame it well by suggesting that Sylvanas lost her ideology, I think that it nevertheless sort of has the same result. The Forsaken are no longer a rebel group but an actual society, and they need to adapt to that. The end result is likely to not be very different from the Scourge—the only difference is that membership is nominally voluntary.

    I think the thing I definitely agree on here is that Sylvanas' melodramatic internal pining is what ruined her for me. She was best as a realistic political leader—she was an opportunistic dictator from beginning-to-end-of-actual-Sylvanas. At first she was a rebel leader looking for revenge, using the Forsaken as a vehicle to reach her goals. Later, she realizes that they need to be made permanent, and consequently establishes a new order like the Forsaken were hawking on about. I do touch on that a bit in my original post, because I definitely don't think she ever wanted the new order before Cataclysm. What I meant when I said "ideological" was more in the spirit of "revolutionary"—and, even then, like many revolutionary leaders she was more concerned with herself than any kind of cause, and the cause was a vehicle for her.

    I'm not quite sure what I'd do to fix Sylvanas if I had her from beginning-to-end. She is admittedly a rather complex character (by WarCraft standards, anyway) and I don't know how I'd figure out her personality or give her motives. I think she doesn't need that much of a direct arc because she actually works better in things like the WotLK - Cataclysm transition. By being a political demagogue first and foremost, she actually did work much better with the long-form storytelling of World of Warcraft because not everything she did needed to follow an exact end goal—her short-term motives could be variable and she could simply be where she needed and doing what she needed to do insofar as it made some sense. Only by trying to give her a nebulous end goal and thrust her in the spotlight did she lose her mystique and menace. She was no longer a dictator from thenceforth, but another fantastical anti-hero who would go around doing things in the interest of achieving a single narrative goal, however nebulous that goal may be. With an open-ended goal like "don't die", "make a new society" and "make a society that works", there was enough to keep her story going 'til the end of WoW and possibly after. Regardless of the reading, I think Sylvanas was, and always should've been, a dictator at heart—a narcissistic, manipulative person who does whatever she needs to out of self-interest, rather it be short-term gratification like against the Lich King or long-term sustainability like that of her new society. Perhaps she even did have some legitimate love for the Forsaken—Sylvanas was horrified by the prospect of their extermination in Edge of Night. Perhaps it was only out of frustration of seeing everything she worked for destroyed, and perhaps she was as much motivated by selfishness. But, ultimately, she was a dictator, and that was her most prominent personality trait. Without that, she loses what made her unique and becomes a fairly cookie-cutter anti-hero who doesn't really have any goals aside from something nebulous and lofty enough to give her a half-assed """redemption""" that she didn't need. The Sylvanas everybody liked was a villain, just one who happened to be on the right side, and that's what people seem not to be able to do with anti-heroes these days, especially Blizzard.

  20. #53320
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Bolvar as the villain of SL would have been so much more interesting. The interactions with Anduin would have had so much more depth given Bolvar was pretty much his foster father. They could have actually used Taelia for more than one quest in Zereth Mortis. And yeah, the issue was gameplay and the need for cross faction looming inevitable and thus having to define the story. Thing is, they could have just solved it by letting the adventurers divorce themselves from the factions. We had done so in Legion. If we had spend all of BfA watching the faction was unfold with the planet dying on the background, it would have made sense for the adventurers to actually take the stance of neutrality and force the truce. Problem is, most players would rather keep the war because Blizzard spend nearly two decades doing their best to make us hate each other.
    Thats not what I mean or even want. I jsut wish Bolvar was a bit more active then "Ok guys we need to do this." I absolutely loved seeing Bolvar fight Sylvanas with us(Same with Jaina and Thrall). I don't want us divorced from the factions because on some level they still matter but any outright full on war would just make part of BFA look really stupid.

    Admittingly humans in the real world can be that dumb but thats beside my point.
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