Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[huth]

That's a problem I have with M+ in general. I want to loot things, not find everything in a chest at the end. Especially with crafting becoming important again, trash and bosses across the dungeon should drop more than gold, greys and greens. Rare recipes and unique reagents could be found in the trash, some of them in side rooms even. And if they cannot add them to M+, then add them to base Mythic.

Honestly I'd love it if they tried two different tracks for Dungeons. One could be the speed run version that M+ and then a second version could be a Challenge Mode but with no timer, just really sharply tuned. The first one would keep working with keys and infinite runs per week while the second could have a weekly lockout and require you to fully explore the dungeon (by adding side objectives) and drop loot normally.

It occurs to me that you're just describing Mythic there. What keeps M+ challenging is the scaling nature. Any fixed difficulty will eventually get outgeared. You also can't tune a 5 man to sharply, or you end up requiring a specific group setup.

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Yeah but only because it won't matter once he resets the universe. Atleast that's Sylvanas' PoV on it in the new book. It doesn't matter if you have to damn all night elf souls to the Maw if you can just rewrite it later anyways.

It still matters to whether he's an anti-hero or villain. For that matter, even Sylvanas had to come to terms with the fact that he deceived her.

[Lady Atia]

It occurs to me that you're just describing Mythic there. What keeps M+ challenging is the scaling nature. Any fixed difficulty will eventually get outgeared. You also can't tune a 5 man to sharply, or you end up requiring a specific group setup.

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It still matters to whether he's an anti-hero or villain. For that matter, even Sylvanas had to come to terms with the fact that he deceived her.

I'm not sure. Was Thanos really a villain if it turns out that the Celestials will just destroy more people in the universe if they hatch, hence his way to reduce the birthrate of new Celestials? But I get your point.

[Nymrohd]

It occurs to me that you're just describing Mythic there. What keeps M+ challenging is the scaling nature. Any fixed difficulty will eventually get outgeared. You also can't tune a 5 man to sharply, or you end up requiring a specific group setup.

You end up requiring a specific group for M+ over 20 as well tbh. At some point the meta becomes extremely limited. 1 tank/1 healer and maybe 4-6 dps are viable everyone else need not apply. And yeah I am describing a version of Mythic that stays challenging. Could be because it locks ilvl and has strong scaling. Honestly I want a dungeon version of raids

[Santandame]

Curious. Is there a map or anything equivalent out there that shows an actual size comparison of the continents in game?

Or anyone knowledgeable on the matter know which of the added continents in TBC onwards are the biggest going to smallest?

I'm just very curious about the Dragon Isles and how big the zones will be.

[Nymrohd]

Well the fact that he sought the sigils because he perceived a threat was not known until the Zovaal kill cinematic. Up until then it was because he wanted to remake the cosmos as he saw fit. And truth be told given the forbidden nature of Zereth Mortis, it's a question of how you even could know what was in there and if it even would give him the means to do as he wanted. HOW did he know? The lore is inconsistent about it. No one has been in ZM yet everyone seems to know about the Sepulcher existing. It never adds up.

As for why he rebelled the idea is he thought it was "unfair". And honestly, I just don't agree. I don't agree it is unfair to be asked to give up your previous experience in order to be an objective and unbiased psychopomp. You can always choose not to ascend and just spend eternity in paradise.
And this thing about people being divided from their loved ones; we see so much mobility between the realms. The only reason it doesn't exist early on is the anima drought having shut down most infrastructure. People seem to travel around all the time. And we don't even know where most of the people are; there obviously are other realms.

Honestly the fair thing is for existence to end when it actually ends. You die, that's it. No one promised you immortality. The entire premise is just entitlement. What entitles Sylvanas to eternal bliss with her loved ones? What entitles anyone to that? This is just thoughtless individualists writing moral philosophical dictates about a normative afterlife.

[Santandame]

so Envoker wasnt seen as tanky but the possibility of a melee spec exists....yes please give me melee then i will play it

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so deathwing was hinted at in TBC??

as for things being teased we did get a bunch of storylines teased in bfa

Yes, he was actually. Blades Edge Mountains and more importantly, Sinestra appearing in the Netherwing area and outright mentioning Deathwing and that he has plans set in motion for the not so distant future.

[Nymrohd]

Curious. Is there a map or anything equivalent out there that shows an actual size comparison of the continents in game?

Or anyone knowledgeable on the matter know which of the added continents in TBC onwards are the biggest going to smallest?

I'm just very curious about the Dragon Isles and how big the zones will be.

Yeah has been posted numerous times. Northrend has by a decent margin the largest land area added out of all expansions. And DF will be larger than that still so it will be the largest expansion in area.

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I'm not sure. Was Thanos really a villain if it turns out that the Celestials will just destroy more people in the universe if they hatch, hence his way to reduce the birthrate of new Celestials? But I get your point.

Well humanity largely creates legal systems that adher to deontology, not teleology. Killing people is bad. The greater good is no excuse for murder.

[JDBlou]

I'm not sure. Was Thanos really a villain if it turns out that the Celestials will just destroy more people in the universe if they hatch, hence his way to reduce the birthrate of new Celestials? But I get your point.

Unless they retcon Thanos' knowledge of Celestials (I mean they easily could with Eros being his brother and all), as it stands MCUThanos only approached the issue the way he did because of overpopulation causing scarcity. The problem with Thanos' solution is that it's inherently callous, and completely flawed. Sure he resolved the ecological devastation, but societies across the universe were completely devastated. The same can be said of Zovaal's hypothetical plan, uniting the forces against some greater threat is a noble goal. It ceases to be the right course of action when he decides he's the only one fit to unite them and decides progress his goal in the cruelest ways possible. The difference between Zovaal and Thanos is that Thanos' motivation is clearly laid out, and that is the massive failing of the writing team. The Jailer is just more forgettable "Only I can save us from what is to come" tripe.

[huth]

I'm not sure. Was Thanos really a villain if it turns out that the Celestials will just destroy more people in the universe if they hatch, hence his way to reduce the birthrate of new Celestials? But I get your point.

What matters isn't the goal or accidental benefits resulting from it. What matters is how they get there. Zovaal employed plenty of cruelty that wasn't technically necessary, for no other reason than that he could. It doesn't matter if he erases the results later, he still did it.

[Santandame]

Yeah has been posted numerous times. Northrend has by a decent margin the largest land area added out of all expansions. And DF will be larger than that still so it will be the largest expansion in area.

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Well humanity largely creates legal systems that adher to deontology, not teleology. Killing people is bad. The greater good is no excuse for murder.

Oh, cool. Did you know which order the size of the continents go?

I'm just going to go with the rough idea that each zone will be equivalent to:

Red - Borean + Sholozar
Green - Howling + Grizzly
Blue - Zul Drak + Storm Peaks
Bronze - Dragonblight + Icecrown
Dracthyr - Wintergrasp + Crystalsong

Each with a bit more added on too.

Seems like extremely large zones. The 4 doesn't bother me. A double zone in the style of the Blue/Azure zone? Don't mind if I do.

[huth]

Curious. Is there a map or anything equivalent out there that shows an actual size comparison of the continents in game?

Or anyone knowledgeable on the matter know which of the added continents in TBC onwards are the biggest going to smallest?

I'm just very curious about the Dragon Isles and how big the zones will be.

There's a few maps from different points in time that compare the size by minimap pixel count (which are a fixed scale compared to world size) and similar measures.

If Dragon Isles are as big as Blizzard says, it will be a huge place, and we'll likely see a lot more of it used in endgame compared to Northrend.

[Nymrohd]

Oh, cool. Did you know which order the size of the continents go?

I'm just going to go with the rough idea that each zone will be equivalent to:

Red - Borean + Sholozar
Green - Howling + Grizzly
Blue - Zul Drak + Storm Peaks
Bronze - Dragonblight + Icecrown
Dracthyr - Wintergrasp + Crystalsong

Each with a bit more added on too.

Seems like extremely large zones. The 4 doesn't bother me. A double zone in the style of the Blue/Azure zone? Don't mind if I do.

This one was current at Legion
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...Map-Comparison
I think BfA probably is about large as WoD with Mechagon and Naz'jatar

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If Dragon Isles are as big as Blizzard says, it will be a huge place, and we'll likely see a lot more of it used in endgame compared to Northrend.

Something to note is that these days elevations can actually be used for gameplay. Up until MoP, most of the terrain used for elevation in WoW was simply map extrusions upward. They didn't really have ledges or structure on them. Starting with MoP but more clearly from Legion and after, mountains are no longer empty terrain; they can be places you adventure. I think the intent with Dragonriding is to build up on exploration. Before this element, exploration achievements were really mostly for collectors, requiring a lot of platforming (in a game that is very poorly designed for platform gameplay) and use of gliders and toys. With Dragonriding exploration is effectively progression. So the map will be designed to have areas that are temporarily inaccessible, not to fill in the space and hide easter eggs but so as to be made accessible organically (instead of binary by unlocking flight like TBC, Wrath and MoP did)

By this I mean to say, the map is likely to be used to a much greater extent than it was with Northrend. But also, far less will be accessible at launch unless you push the limits of what Dragonriding can do. This is interesting as well. In the past we have managed to get past Blizzard's intended map space by creative use of movement abilities. In an expac that will feature crafting as almost a pillar, people who manage to access areas early get much better access to gathering materials. Exploration will be a competitive thing in DF.

[Wangming]

Kyrestia herself states it in a quest:
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Voices_of_the_Eternal

But that's not the cool anti-hero plan he shared with them. That is the megalomaniac dickwad plan.

Please compare:

"hey guys, I know a way to reshape the cosmos so that instead of a tool I'm an omnipotent god"

to

"Hey guys, there is something extra-cosmic coming your way, to fuck as up. Join me in rewriting the cosmos into one that can actually withstand the threat."

Like, there is not even a hint of him telling his full plan to anyone. Maybe Denathrius, but only him. Not the rest of the Eternal Ones, not Sylvanas, not Anduin, nobody. It is as if his justification was only figured out at the last minute.

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I'm just very curious about the Dragon Isles and how big the zones will be.

Very big. It is said to be one of the largest continents they have ever made. And yet, they have like half the zone number of Northrend. That suggests massive zones.

[Nymrohd]

Like, there is not even a hint of him telling his full plan to anyone. Maybe Denathrius, but only him. Not the rest of the Eternal Ones, not Sylvanas, not Anduin, nobody. It is as if his justification was only figured out at the last minute.

And while we did not really interact with Zovaal that much, we interacted with Denathrius extensively. There could easily have been hints there of a greater plan. If anything the plan presented by Denathrius is about dividing, infilitrating and conquering the other six forces, not in any way unifying or protecting them.

[Wangming]

And while we did not really interact with Zovaal that much, we interacted with Denathrius extensively. There could easily have been hints there of a greater plan. If anything the plan presented by Denathrius is about dividing, infilitrating and conquering the other six forces, not in any way unifying or protecting them.

Exactly. Thing is, even by being essentially just a henchman charged with stirring up trouble, he was a much more memorable villain. he had a much better design, and a clear reason to dislike him besides his deem voice and spiked armor.

[JDBlou]

And while we did not really interact with Zovaal that much, we interacted with Denathrius extensively. There could easily have been hints there of a greater plan. If anything the plan presented by Denathrius is about dividing, infilitrating and conquering the other six forces, not in any way unifying or protecting them.

The "implication" (because it's not explicit at all) is that Zovaal tells his allies what they want to hear to get them on his side. He tells Denathrius they'll make Death the greatest cosmic force to get him to work for him, he tells Sylvanas he'll fix the afterlife system because that'll get her on his side
Side note: I don't think it's discussed in the novel how Sylvanas ends up going straight to the Maw (my pet theory is that the Jailer's val'kyr intercepted her soul like Devos did with Arthas) so she could more easily be manipulated into serving him instead of going to Revendreth because at that juncture Sylvanas could definitely still be redeemed by the Venthyr, like worse people went there and got a shot at redemption. Unless but seems really unlikely the Arbiter actually got to judge Sylvanas, which is a massive gamble on the Jailer's part because he wouldn't know that Sylvanas goes to the Maw ahead of time.

[Hitei]

But that's not the cool anti-hero plan he shared with them. That is the megalomaniac dickwad plan.

Please compare:

"hey guys, I know a way to reshape the cosmos so that instead of a tool I'm an omnipotent god"

to

"Hey guys, there is something extra-cosmic coming your way, to fuck as up. Join me in rewriting the cosmos into one that can actually withstand the threat."

There's nothing to suggest he didn't explain his entire plan to him. They rejected his idea because even stepping foot on Zereth Mortis is taboo to them ("forbidden knowledge"), let alone going there, hijacking the First Ones' technology and destroying their pattern, the thing the other Eternal Ones consider absolute truth, and rewriting it with his own version where they control all of reality.

He was never justified from their point of view. Hell, he's not really justified from any point of view, since his whole worldview is seemingly founded on the idea that the First Ones were incompetent and their designs weren't going to hold up, when apparently the First Ones knew their own design so well they knew that he was going to attempt to fuck it up and left safeguards so that he could be dealt with when it became necessary.

He's not an anti-hero. In any sense. He's an upstart who thought he knew better than the people who built the entire universe and figured he could run things better if he destroyed the universe and made his own version. Hard to be an anti-hero when your plan is "destroy everything in existence and replace them with the version I like".

[JDBlou]

Exactly. Thing is, even by being essentially just a henchman charged with stirring up trouble, he was a much more memorable villain. he had a much better design, and a clear reason to dislike him besides his deem voice and spiked armor.

That's because he's a far cry from the usual booming deep voice Warcraft villain (Deathwing, Arthas ,Grommash ,Illidan ,Kel'thuzad, N'zoth) so the change of pace is memorable.
That's why Fish N'zoth is the best voice for him and should have kept it, it was a better fit for the most subtle and insidious Old God, the one who won through cunning not brute force and it was a real shame they just turned up the decibels and lost all the nuance.

[Super Dickmann]

As for why he rebelled the idea is he thought it was "unfair". And honestly, I just don't agree. I don't agree it is unfair to be asked to give up your previous experience in order to be an objective and unbiased psychopomp. You can always choose not to ascend and just spend eternity in paradise.
And this thing about people being divided from their loved ones; we see so much mobility between the realms. The only reason it doesn't exist early on is the anima drought having shut down most infrastructure. People seem to travel around all the time. And we don't even know where most of the people are; there obviously are other realms..

The Bald Man didn't rebel because of the unfairness of the death sorting system. He never gave a shit about it and he never mentions it to his peers when he's warning them or when he's doing his cliche evil gloating. He rebelled against his job because reality was 'flawed'. Not in some kind of moralistic sense, but descriptively because instead of having one unified power there were six competing powers the imbalance of which would wreck the world. And because they were set up in competing dualistic pairs, cosmic collapse was inevitable, like Rygelon says in the raid. Ergo, he plans to hijack the Zereths and make a new one where all powers are united under himself as the common denominator.

The whole spiel about the unfairness of the afterlives, whether true or not is just spin to get Sylvanas on side because he can't physically act on Azeroth otherwise. The book makes it fairly clear that he considers people to be irrelevant, leading repetitive pointless lives. He has however seen countless come and go so and so he knows what makes them tic, hence why his pitch to Sylvanas and Devos is all about their personal psychoses and to Denathrius is all about his own power. Telling everyone that you care deeply about their individual lives and free will and want to secure it through your plan is a more compelling pitch than telling them you actually think the Demiurges of the setting have their efforts doomed to a 404 Error at some stage and you think you can make it work indefinitely instead.

Of course, the character in the game is not written abysmally only in so far as he isn't written at all, so this comes through mostly in the book and the ample side docs from Firim and other bosses.

[Nymrohd]

That's because he's a far cry from the usual booming deep voice Warcraft villain (Deathwing, Arthas ,Grommash ,Illidan ,Kel'thuzad, N'zoth) so the change of pace is memorable.
That's why Fish N'zoth is the best voice for him and should have kept it, it was a better fit for the most subtle and insidious Old God, the one who won through cunning not brute force and it was a real shame they just turned up the decibels and lost all the nuance.

Honestly Denathrius is nearly queer-coded as a villain. He is a flamboyant ruler of a decadent society.