1. #54241
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    It doesn't change the fact that in the end he was just a pawn for Zovaal. He was used as a tool to funnel all anima into the Maw and then thrown away once he outlived his usefulness. The Janitor, during one of the many insightful monologues he had, even dissed Denathrius, saying that he fulfilled his purpose. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    At least Alleria is no one's pawn.
    Alleria is Afrasiabi's pawn. Void elves are his way of saying fuck high elf fans and when he was finally gone they started adding in high elf options.

  2. #54242
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Well Lei Shen himself didn't have much screentime either, but he was characterized theough the current and past mogu empires so his presence had more impact than Jailer's did.
    Yeah as I said in the follow up, it doesn't take much to make a decent villain. Give them some lore, a cool design and if possible a piece of good media like Lei Shen got with the 5.2 trailer or Azshara got with Azshara's short before BfA. And you definitely don't need to be building up to that villain for years.

  3. #54243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Yeah as I said in the follow up, it doesn't take much to make a decent villain. Give them some lore, a cool design and if possible a piece of good media like Lei Shen got with the 5.2 trailer or Azshara got with Azshara's short before BfA. And you definitely don't need to be building up to that villain for years.
    It's crazy how much the ToT trailer does for the Thunder King as a character. The dread in Cho's voice while he recites the poem, and its content tells you that he could be a pretty cool villain. Flash with a bit of substance compared to Lich King 2.0 without the appeal.
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  4. #54244
    Quote Originally Posted by JDBlou View Post
    It's crazy how much the ToT trailer does for the Thunder King as a character. The dread in Cho's voice while he recites the poem, and its content tells you that he could be a pretty cool villain. Flash with a bit of substance compared to Lich King 2.0 without the appeal.
    It's all about presentation. Zovaal could have been an amazing villain if they made the effort.

  5. #54245
    Quote Originally Posted by JDBlou View Post
    It's crazy how much the ToT trailer does for the Thunder King as a character. The dread in Cho's voice while he recites the poem, and its content tells you that he could be a pretty cool villain. Flash with a bit of substance compared to Lich King 2.0 without the appeal.
    To sell something you need to know what you're selling. With the Bald Man they had no idea until after they'd already given up on doing anything with it in his actual in-game appearances, relegating the character to side information. I can't think of another case in WoW where the writers themselves had no idea what they were going for.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

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  6. #54246
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    To sell something you need to know what you're selling. With the Bald Man they had no idea until after they'd already given up on doing anything with it in his actual in-game appearances, relegating the character to side information. I can't think of another case in WoW where the writers themselves had no idea what they were going for.
    Honestly however much they hated what Afrasiabi had planned for Shadowlands, I think it would have been better if they had just kept his plot and moved forward with Dragonflight than try to course correct with no idea how to do so.

  7. #54247
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Honestly however much they hated what Afrasiabi had planned for Shadowlands, I think it would have been better if they had just kept his plot and moved forward with Dragonflight than try to course correct with no idea how to do so.
    I suspect the biggest changes from Afrasiabi's version were to Sylvanas and what would become the Bald Man, with Arthas as the dark horse candidate. Shadowlands had been in development in some form since at least 2017 and Afrasiabi's writing direction for Sylvanas holds even into Shadows Rising and into the early versions of the Maw intro. I suspect an Afrasiabi-led SL would've had Sylvanas as the end villain and the Bald Man as either someone to be coup'd, as a reversal of N'zoth and Azshara or nonexistent. I also heavily doubt that much of the robot fare would've gotten off the ground under Alex, such as ZM and the like. This screams a lot more Danuser.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  8. #54248
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I suspect the biggest changes from Afrasiabi's version were to Sylvanas and what would become the Bald Man, with Arthas as the dark horse candidate. Shadowlands had been in development in some form since at least 2017 and Afrasiabi's writing direction for Sylvanas holds even into Shadows Rising and into the early versions of the Maw intro. I suspect an Afrasiabi-led SL would've had Sylvanas as the end villain and the Bald Man as either someone to be coup'd, as a reversal of N'zoth and Azshara or nonexistent. I also heavily doubt that much of the robot fare would've gotten off the ground under Alex, such as ZM and the like. This screams a lot more Danuser.
    I honestly don't know what Alex's plan was for SL beyond the fact that I doubt he planned any form of redemption for Sylvanas. Which is fine by me; whatever Golden writes she cannot take back the fact that Shadows Rising had POV chapters from a very different Sylvanas so perhaps they should have just rolled with it and focused on writing the rest of WoW.

    I wonder when they came up with Zereth Mortis. If they had made any of the decisions for the lore of ZM at a reasonably early point, they could have used that to better explain Zovaal. Zereth Mortis has a crazy amount of unique models in it so they must have decided on it very early on. Which just makes them seem even more incompetent. They could have made Zovaal a rogue AI that just screamed "My logic is undeniable" at us.

  9. #54249
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I honestly don't know what Alex's plan was for SL beyond the fact that I doubt he planned any form of redemption for Sylvanas. Which is fine by me; whatever Golden writes she cannot take back the fact that Shadows Rising had POV chapters from a very different Sylvanas so perhaps they should have just rolled with it and focused on writing the rest of WoW.

    I wonder when they came up with Zereth Mortis. If they had made any of the decisions for the lore of ZM at a reasonably early point, they could have used that to better explain Zovaal. Zereth Mortis has a crazy amount of unique models in it so they must have decided on it very early on. Which just makes them seem even more incompetent. They could have made Zovaal a rogue AI that just screamed "My logic is undeniable" at us.
    I loved the course correction they did with Sylvanas this expansion, and I'm hyped for Dragonflight under Danuser. BFA was the greatest shit lorewise and I will forever hate that Afrasiabi dude to what he did to Sylvanas (and N'Zoth, and Azshara, and Rastakhan) in that dumbsterfire of an "expansion". The only good thing about it was the art, but Nyalotha got wasted and Nazjatar was ugly besides the raid.

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  10. #54250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I suspect the biggest changes from Afrasiabi's version were to Sylvanas and what would become the Bald Man, with Arthas as the dark horse candidate. Shadowlands had been in development in some form since at least 2017 and Afrasiabi's writing direction for Sylvanas holds even into Shadows Rising and into the early versions of the Maw intro. I suspect an Afrasiabi-led SL would've had Sylvanas as the end villain and the Bald Man as either someone to be coup'd, as a reversal of N'zoth and Azshara or nonexistent. I also heavily doubt that much of the robot fare would've gotten off the ground under Alex, such as ZM and the like. This screams a lot more Danuser.
    I just remembered the various lore tidbits from the maw alpha about gruesome experiments going on in the tower and maw. Painted a much darker place than the info on live
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  11. #54251
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadochi View Post
    I just remembered the various lore tidbits from the maw alpha about gruesome experiments going on in the tower and maw. Painted a much darker place than the info on live
    That made it in game. It's a lore item you can find in the Cauldron.

  12. #54252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    That made it in game. It's a lore item you can find in the Cauldron.
    Im pretty sure that while some of them made it into the game, the much darker ones didn't. COuld be wrong tho
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  13. #54253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadochi View Post
    Im pretty sure that while some of them made it into the game, the much darker ones didn't. COuld be wrong tho
    Maybe they were too dark for the pg12 rating?

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  14. #54254
    Quote Originally Posted by JDBlou View Post
    It's crazy how much the ToT trailer does for the Thunder King as a character. The dread in Cho's voice while he recites the poem, and its content tells you that he could be a pretty cool villain. Flash with a bit of substance compared to Lich King 2.0 without the appeal.
    I think what truly sets Lei Shen apart is how perfectly is is set up.
    He is never pushed in your face, but from the beginning it's clear that Pandaria had someone in the past who made all these interesting things. The Serpent's spine, the various fortresses, the Palace and giant statues, etc.
    Then you also have the whole angle the Mogu are going for with a return to greatness, and various sparse mentions of the first Mogu emperor.

    It all crystallizes beautifully together into a cohesive whole where Lei Shen is revealed to be the Pandaria equivalent of Qin Shi Huang.
    Couple that with a great voice actor and a great patch and you have the makings of a great villain.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  15. #54255
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I honestly don't know what Alex's plan was for SL beyond the fact that I doubt he planned any form of redemption for Sylvanas. Which is fine by me; whatever Golden writes she cannot take back the fact that Shadows Rising had POV chapters from a very different Sylvanas so perhaps they should have just rolled with it and focused on writing the rest of WoW.

    I wonder when they came up with Zereth Mortis. If they had made any of the decisions for the lore of ZM at a reasonably early point, they could have used that to better explain Zovaal. Zereth Mortis has a crazy amount of unique models in it so they must have decided on it very early on. Which just makes them seem even more incompetent. They could have made Zovaal a rogue AI that just screamed "My logic is undeniable" at us.
    Alex definitely meant for Sylvanas to be an absolute cartoon of the kind she was in BFA. Even BTS, itself complete dross, had a version of Sylvanas incompatible with BFA and now contradicted by the new version where while the personality might mesh, the actions don't because the Bald Man wasn't invented yet. That Sylvanas would've been a raid boss in Afrasiabi's version is a given.

    Yeah, nix what I said about ZM, I can't argue with the details into it and I suspect the artificiality was decided on very early. What they had settled wasn't what the basic gist of the Jailer would be, i.e 'toppled artificial arbiter on the destination of souls with an LK ICC aesthetic' but what his character would actually be. Is he a schemer? A brute? An out of control robot? An idealist. Fuck knows. You can find every version of it, all of them underwritten as all fuck, fitting in with how they didn't even know what he'd look like until a few months before release.

    @Shadochi

    Yeah, this is one aspect I think that Alex would've 100% done better or even Golden if she were cut loose with it, since she can do bleak when called for, most recently Delaryn's death and Sylvanas's own brief description of torture in the Maw in the book. The Maw is on paper an absolute hellhole and the exposition to it is all in the game. But we never see any of it and the most evocative descriptions of the idea of torturing souls as a dispassionate trial and error factory line, like those logs on the experimented upon Night Elf are absent from the game. I think they purposefully pussied out after the reaction to Teldrassil.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  16. #54256
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadochi View Post
    Im pretty sure that while some of them made it into the game, the much darker ones didn't. COuld be wrong tho
    You are right, the actual context was removed from the note in game. Sucks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Maybe they were too dark for the pg12 rating?
    And genocide is not?

  17. #54257
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    Would be nice if character screen was updated with UI revamp as well. At least they should increase visible characters from 11 to 13 (for obvious reasons).

  18. #54258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    Would be nice if character screen was updated with UI revamp as well. At least they should increase visible characters from 11 to 13 (for obvious reasons).
    I am unsure if it is just me, but I have issues with moving around my character order on the screen if it needs to be scrolled down
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  19. #54259
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDBlou View Post
    That's because he's a far cry from the usual booming deep voice Warcraft villain (Deathwing, Arthas ,Grommash ,Illidan ,Kel'thuzad, N'zoth) so the change of pace is memorable.
    That's why Fish N'zoth is the best voice for him and should have kept it, it was a better fit for the most subtle and insidious Old God, the one who won through cunning not brute force and it was a real shame they just turned up the decibels and lost all the nuance.
    Yes, It is amazing how small details can change things for the better. Slightly off-topic but I was rewatching old reaction vids yesterday and one was about when Yoshi-P revelead the graphical updates. And mostly they showcased changes to lighting. Imagine that. No change to the models, no change to the textures, or anything. Just more lights and more realistic shadows. And shit looked amazing.
    Good voice acting can similarly elevate a character.

  20. #54260
    Quote Originally Posted by JDBlou View Post
    Cool, that's a fallacious argument by the way, because I didn't discuss being a pawn, I was talking about their personalities or lack thereof. You didn't address the personality at all.
    Personality? What personality? What's there to say about his personality? He's a guy who sips wine like a villain and acts haughty and vainglorious all the time like half of the elves we have already seen (the other half are the tree hippies). Is there anything original or special to talk about?

    He looks good only because he's in an expansion with terrible villains.

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