Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Lorca]

When could we expect the 9.2.5 patch to be released?

[Ersula]

The crafting in WoW never was really anything beside farming and getting mats from the open world, dungeons or raids .So the solution to replace Torghast, Warfronts and Islands is mats farming?

I was pessimistic about it too. But when the people doing high keys & mythic raiding would just not do this content, or be forced to do it & complain, you might as well just remove it. Islands & Warfronts had the most casual retention because of the transmogs, so to go with that they announced a plethora of crafting related transmog items.

Where are details about how crafting is being implemented as like in FFXIV as you talk about, how is the acquisition of mats being changed it could replace Torghast, Islands or Warfronts, and how should it replace instanced solo queue gameplay?

I mean it's not instanced but gathering always has been the quintessential solo activity in wow. But coincidently they also added solo queue ranked pvp.

[Drcidoc]

I would simply give a shit about what a few mythic+ and raid players complain about and give normal players useful progression systems. In the end it is the everyday player that pays wows development, and not the few premade group players.

Beside that i do not think that farming and crafting 100 versions of "Green leggings of the gnome hunter" will add any fun to WoWs gameplay or could replace instanced solo queue content like Torghast successfully.

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Yep, and thats the problem. In the end, the developers replace instanced Torghast with bosses and interesting game mechanics with .. farming.

Really, Blizzard?

I get belly aches from reading your comments, the game was just ANNOUNCED, it’s a whole year until release. You’re talking like the game will be out tomorrow man, calm the hell down.

[Ersula]

I would simply give a shit about what a few mythic+ and raid players complain about and give normal players useful progression systems. In the end it is the everyday player that pays wows development, and not the few premade group players.

Beside that i do not think that farming and crafting 100 versions of "Green leggings of the gnome hunter" will add any fun to WoWs gameplay or could replace instanced solo queue content like Torghast successfully.

You seem to be missing the "Crafting will be able to make the strongest gear in the game" part of Dragonflight crafting.

Farm the mats, make the gear; That's a progression system. It's been far less gratifying all these years because it's always had a hard cap on it so they're getting rid of that cap.

And if you absolutely need your solo play to be in the form of a dungeon, they want to convince you to group up. Dungeons are supposed to be social & this is their idea to encourage more community without alienating people who feel like playing alone. Push the people who want to do dungeons to be more social & push the people who want to play solo to try more crafting.

Literally everyone was complaining about Torghast. If you actually felt it was rewarding gameplay you should have been more vocal about it about a year ago.

[Nymrohd]

I often advocate for challenging solo content that offers its own progression route.

Visions did have some very solid rewards but for very limited slots (I think you only got gear for the 5-non azerite armor slots, no cloaks, jewelry, trinkets weapons). And that's OK because some specs had a far harder time than others.

Torghast was supposed to be that as well. If you look at the original presentation during Blizzcon, Torghast was supposed to unlock loot at the Vault, presumable at different ilvls (with the Vault back then also having the Coin functionality were you would be able to spend coins to target specific boss lootables for Vault slots). What Torghast could solve however was that it had myriads of levers to balance the solo capabilities of different specs. Is a spec crap at solo? Give it overpowered Anima powers to make up for the weakness it has. After all what makes specific specs weak is not that they don't have throughput, it's lack of defensives, CC and/or mobility as well as slower dps build up, all of which could be solved with Anima powers.

The other solution is not to offer instanced content specific for solo but to reward world content. Up until MoP that was the standard. Between reps and Valor you could get multiple gear pieces at normal raid level. And keep in mind with Mythic not existing that meant you were just a single tier of ilvl below the dedicated raiders. This made the gear feel powerful. The trade off was a much slower rate of gaining gear than any raider would get but you would get there eventually (and that kept you subbed so you could get Valor cap every week). Pair this off with the most alt friendly expac ever (Double Valor and Rep gain on alts) for one of the best casual progression systems.

I think the next xpac that was very friendly to casuals in gear progression was BfA. Emissaries, HC Warfronts and War Mode giving Conquest meant that half way though the tier you would be at heroic ilvl, something not possible in Legion (were TF was the only way for casuals to get great gear) or SL. SL does let you get decent gear, half way over Normal. Very easy to do in 9.2, extremely grindy but possible (and for all slots) for 9.1

Another issue for casual players is dungeons. Back when we had Valor and M+ did not exist, running a few LFG dungeons a week was part of your gameplay. Now heroics are completely worthless, with gear far weaker than catchup, world quest or crafted gear. Casuals barely run them in Legion and BfA and only run them a bit in early SL to unlock anima powers.

On what I'd like to see; honestly I think we need every version of world content to be rewarding.
By every version I include War Mode. I should be able to get Conquest up to a cap in War Mode and be rewarded for it else War Mode has very little value. BfA imo did it perfectly. You had to do a decent amount of War Mode content to cap. If you did, you would slowly get gear up to a very solid level. You could again tie it to the Vault. There was a variety of War Mode content to do and patches added more. The rewards were good enough that people actually did world pvp throughout the xpac with the zone assaults and Naz'jatar PvP both being very rewarding. Only thing the system needs is a better way to balance representation.

Casual world content should be able to slowly reward good gear. This could be with a completely random system like Emissaries granting good gear again with a limited ability to choose like we had with Legion and moreso with BfA. Or it could be with a reward track (could be Valor, could be something else) that unlocks gear slots at the Vault.

Dungeons should feel more accessible. Realistically they ARE accessible for everyone but tanks. People will not really look that much into anything but ilvl for low level keys and you can then use those to level up (well not on Alliance side since there aren't enough keys but soon!). Still making base Mythic available via Matchmaking and letting it open Vault slots (LFR does . . .) would help (and make Dungeon week very popular).

And ofc you could have challenging solo content.
First option is instanced. Imo if that was to happen, it should be with an evergreen system so Blizzard doesn't feel like they have to reinvent it every xpac. That doesn't mean it has to be thematically constrained. You'd just tie it to a specific system so the UI can stay the same while using different content in each xpac (and if possibly add at patches). Imo this could be linked to a new organization that sends people to explore the world, under the Archeology system, through the Bronze Flight. Whatever the system is it should have ways to tune it for individual specs to make up for weaknesses to soloing.
The other alternative would be to make it an opt-in world mode. Just like you can opt in for War Mode, make a Heroic? Mode for world content. You choose it, you unlock a spec-specific passive that tunes up some abilities to make you a bit better for solo (and then you can aggressively choose solo-effective talents in the new tree). And then the entire world becomes much more challenging, every pull requiring some effort, consumables and/or help from other players pretty much required to kill rares. Add environmental effects that make AFKing outside a town madness. Perhaps even no flight allowed (or limited flight like Dragonriding). But everything you do while in Heroic mode fills up the reward track for the week and at the end you can get Heroic ilvl loot from the Vault.

As for why I keep mentioning the Vault, it's because if they use the Vault for EVERYTHING instead of adding multiple reward systems then people who just log in to raid/do M+/rated pvp will be able to completely ignore the casual/solo activities. If you do instanced content you'd already get higher ilvl loot in your vault so any of these options would just be a downgrade. Thus you'd minimize the issue of needing to do content you don't like to be competitive.

[Drcidoc]

And you think they will add anything useful beside farming 1000 hides of the dragonkin to create another 100 "dragonling boots"?

No I don’t think anything, I just wait and see.

Instead of complaining and expecting the worse before anything happened. What a loser mentality.

[Revamp Man]

No I don’t think anything, I just wait and see.

Instead of complaining and expecting the worse before anything happened. What a loser mentality.

It's what they do
Best to just ignore and mock

[Ersula]

And you think they will add anything useful beside farming 1000 hides of the dragonkin to create another 100 "dragonling boots"?

Well, FFXIV did it, and based on the screenshots they copied FFXIV so yeah I think so. I'm looking forward to it.

Honestly I wanted them to deal with the hurdles to get into the other three pillars of gameplay but I don't see them addressing that in the DF features but this is the next best thing.

[B01L]

Mythic Zero dungeons should be another tier in the Group Finder, with an "Incentive Chest" for Tanks and Heals doing their first random dungeon of the day...

Gear from LFR should provide enough iLvl to enter the Mythic Zero dungeons...?

Would make it easier casual/solo players to complete the "four Mythic dungeons" weekly...

[Revamp Man]

As i wrote, the most easy solution for casual gamers would be to add valor points to matchmade dungeons and world quests, and to add vendors where casual gamers could acquire gear. That system seems to work fine in matchmade PVP, while i am not sure the devs will add that back. Simply because they dislike matchmaking. No matter how successfull it is. They even do not add LFD to WotLK classic, even if 70% of the classic players would like it. So it is clear it is not about what the players want but simply what the developers dictate them what should be fun.

Blizzards devs and their bias simply is a tyranny for most of their players. I would wish many players would realize that and stop buying the shit blizzard creates and stop playing games that are not made for them. But for some reason and with good PR blizzard always manages to lure back millions into new expacs, which leave the game short after, disappointed again blizzard did not make the game for them.

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Oh yeah, i am sure mocking will help to solve the problems

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If you wonder i did not answer to your post, it is simply because i agree with most of your statements.

nothing on this site will fix any problems much less the posts in this thread from someone who spergs over stuff that we end up finding out isnt an issue days after only to move to the next issue

[Revamp Man]

So you literally mean, no feedback will make the developers change their behaviour?

Probably you are right and people simply should stop playing World of Warcraft. But before we get there, there is still the hope that common sense and obviously big problems and the ability of the devs to read could help us to create a fun game rather than another set of chores players stop to play after a single month of gametime.

You know, instead of removing gameplay, like Torghast and islands and Warfronts, the developers could get the idea to reiterate on what was wrong and make the gameplay better and rewarding, instead of removing it once anyone dared to criticize them for a bad implementation. Do not be a diva, be a developer. A developer reiterates to a new version of his work if it failed.

theres a difference between feedback on the official forums and claiming no torghast is a terrible change for the game

so currently all we know is that in 10.0 the big thing will be dragon riding and i can honestly say that will provide more interactive content than torghast
torghast wasnt amazing fun content because it was a neutered version of what we originally got to test and in reality was 2 runs per week at most with nothing meaningful aside from being required for legendary items. It not existing isnt going to be a huge loss in terms of player interaction especially now since you literally never have to run it and can just buy the materials.

But ok lets see what these things provided
warfronts were once per week and essentially an lfr run on normal and a slightly harder version on heroic
it rewarded gear and a currency that was used for 2 mounts
it allowed access to a zone with world quests and some cosmetic rewards like mounts and pets

islands were essentially the same but they also gave some fun story items and were the best source of azerite and the weekly required about 3 runs with more runs being optional for more AP or currency for cosmetics

torghast was twice a week rewarded currency for legendaries and dropped some cosmetics and as of now is 100% optional after unlocking legendary crafting. There is a boss rush mode and a longer version both of which are designed to reward cosmetics and be a faster way to get the currency.

10.0 has dragon riding which is not instanced but does reward cosmetics and allows you access to certain areas and treasures for more cosmetics



the key difference is that dragon riding is not instanced and unlike the other systems like torghast and warfronts we dont know how it will work.
they can add something in 10.1 or 10.2 so claiming they wont have it next expansion and that it is a huge loss is just outrage for the sake of outrage like the people who claimed we werent getting flying because we had dragon riding

[Sondrelk]

theres a difference between feedback on the official forums and claiming no torghast is a terrible change for the game

so currently all we know is that in 10.0 the big thing will be dragon riding and i can honestly say that will provide more interactive content than torghast
torghast wasnt amazing fun content because it was a neutered version of what we originally got to test and in reality was 2 runs per week at most with nothing meaningful aside from being required for legendary items. It not existing isnt going to be a huge loss in terms of player interaction especially now since you literally never have to run it and can just buy the materials.

But ok lets see what these things provided
warfronts were once per week and essentially an lfr run on normal and a slightly harder version on heroic
it rewarded gear and a currency that was used for 2 mounts
it allowed access to a zone with world quests and some cosmetic rewards like mounts and pets

islands were essentially the same but they also gave some fun story items and were the best source of azerite and the weekly required about 3 runs with more runs being optional for more AP or currency for cosmetics

torghast was twice a week rewarded currency for legendaries and dropped some cosmetics and as of now is 100% optional after unlocking legendary crafting. There is a boss rush mode and a longer version both of which are designed to reward cosmetics and be a faster way to get the currency.

10.0 has dragon riding which is not instanced but does reward cosmetics and allows you access to certain areas and treasures for more cosmetics



the key difference is that dragon riding is not instanced and unlike the other systems like torghast and warfronts we dont know how it will work.
they can add something in 10.1 or 10.2 so claiming they wont have it next expansion and that it is a huge loss is just outrage for the sake of outrage like the people who claimed we werent getting flying because we had dragon riding

You know what Torghast needed? Shittons of old recolored transmog, same as what islands got.
I would definitely run far more Torghast than I currently do, probably even on several alts if I got more transmog.

[Nymrohd]

theres a difference between feedback on the official forums and claiming no torghast is a terrible change for the game

so currently all we know is that in 10.0 the big thing will be dragon riding and i can honestly say that will provide more interactive content than torghast
torghast wasnt amazing fun content because it was a neutered version of what we originally got to test and in reality was 2 runs per week at most with nothing meaningful aside from being required for legendary items. It not existing isnt going to be a huge loss in terms of player interaction especially now since you literally never have to run it and can just buy the materials.

But ok lets see what these things provided
warfronts were once per week and essentially an lfr run on normal and a slightly harder version on heroic
it rewarded gear and a currency that was used for 2 mounts
it allowed access to a zone with world quests and some cosmetic rewards like mounts and pets

islands were essentially the same but they also gave some fun story items and were the best source of azerite and the weekly required about 3 runs with more runs being optional for more AP or currency for cosmetics

torghast was twice a week rewarded currency for legendaries and dropped some cosmetics and as of now is 100% optional after unlocking legendary crafting. There is a boss rush mode and a longer version both of which are designed to reward cosmetics and be a faster way to get the currency.

10.0 has dragon riding which is not instanced but does reward cosmetics and allows you access to certain areas and treasures for more cosmetics



the key difference is that dragon riding is not instanced and unlike the other systems like torghast and warfronts we dont know how it will work.
they can add something in 10.1 or 10.2 so claiming they wont have it next expansion and that it is a huge loss is just outrage for the sake of outrage like the people who claimed we werent getting flying because we had dragon riding

I think a crucial issue is that they did not really iterate that much with Warfronts and that the Islands was a miss matched design. Warfronts has potential if they were available more often and/or were challenging. Instead they decided to limit their availability to increase their rewards. Islands had so much effort go into them to create unique set pieces that you could explore and were somehow paired with gameplay that not just encouraged but demanded speed running them. Heck I have tried to do some solo exploration now that they are available but the opposing team is effectively a timer that cuts your effort short (and both cuts your effort short AND denies you any reward if you try to ignore them).

Torghast was iterated upon. I think the system in Torghast is very solid; the tree, the torments, the variety in anima powers offer good gameplay. The issue is the poor rewards and the very boring environment. They gave it time with the devs but not time with the art team. Torghast needed a lot more variety in mobs and environments (Jailer could simply have drawn parts of all the different realms into Torghast letting them reuse assets from all the zones) and needed to fullfill the Blizzcon promise and award Vault loot.

[Sondrelk]

I think a crucial issue is that they did not really iterate that much with Warfronts and that the Islands was a miss matched design. Warfronts has potential if they were available more often and/or were challenging. Instead they decided to limit their availability to increase their rewards. Islands had so much effort go into them to create unique set pieces that you could explore and were somehow paired with gameplay that not just encouraged but demanded speed running them.

I found the main flaw with Warfronts was that it was not just random matchmaking, but additionally was designed for 30 players. For what is supposed to be playing a hero unit in an RTS that is just absurd. No RTS has been improved by bumrushing the final base with 30 hero units, and maybe a couple of good units on the side.

It should have been 5 players maximum, and with much more emphasis placed on tactical play, and clever use of the resources you had.
As it stands the NPCs are pretty much pointless compared to the players, where it really should be the opposite. Players should be good at the beginning, and then be more of a support unit by the end.


As for islands it really is just baffling how they figured that island exploration would be improved by a competitive timed event.
It shouldn't even have been a queued event you do several of, but more likely an extra zone you go to where you complete quests and kill rares.

[Nymrohd]

I found the main flaw with Warfronts was that it was not just random matchmaking, but additionally was designed for 30 players. For what is supposed to be playing a hero unit in an RTS that is just absurd. No RTS has been improved by bumrushing the final base with 30 hero units, and maybe a couple of good units on the side.

It should have been 5 players maximum, and with much more emphasis placed on tactical play, and clever use of the resources you had.
As it stands the NPCs are pretty much pointless compared to the players, where it really should be the opposite. Players should be good at the beginning, and then be more of a support unit by the end.


As for islands it really is just baffling how they figured that island exploration would be improved by a competitive timed event.
It shouldn't even have been a queued event you do several of, but more likely an extra zone you go to where you complete quests and kill rares.

You are probably right, Warfronts might have played better with smaller groups. I will disagree on the NPCs not being strong though. I always made a point to grab two fully upgraded knights before the final rush and as a tank I would often do double or triple the damage that the dps with no NPC support did. Issue was that the content was so undertuned that you did not need the knights and also that all the NPC mobs were horrible at taking damage. I think 30 may have been too many but 5 would be too few; imo the event should be tuned so you always needed at least a few people on defense, two people running resources and two different assault groups (one main lane and one on the side lanes possibly alternating). Could be done with 10 people but you'd need NPCs that can tank or squishies would be destroyed.

For Islands I cannot even figure out how that concept survived even a single brainstorming session with half-competent devs. The content simply does not match the gameplay.

[Revamp Man]

You know what Torghast needed? Shittons of old recolored transmog, same as what islands got.
I would definitely run far more Torghast than I currently do, probably even on several alts if I got more transmog.

im glad i got the dragon riders gear in bfa

taht stuff is going to go for huge gold

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No, actually there simply is no solo queue gameplay anymore for casual gamers beside dungeons in 10.0, simply because blizzard stopped creating gameplay like that. So it is a deevolution. And feeding a dragon cannot really replace that.

youre right they cant add anything in a patch
its totally impossible
game is dead

[Nymrohd]

When did they add a new gameplay component they did not announce in a release trailer last time?

Rather contrary they often did not implement all the features they announced.

Brawler's guild, extensive solo gameplay added mid xpac and not announced at release. LFG, LFR, transmog, the Visions systems

[Makorus]

When did they add a new gameplay component they did not announce in a release trailer last time?

Rather contrary they often did not implement all the features they announced.

World Quest? Updated Professions in Legion? Mythic+? Azerite Armor? War Mode? Class Redesigns? Group Finder? And that's just from expansion releases.

What features did not get implemented?

[Nymrohd]

World Quest? Updated Professions in Legion? Mythic+? Azerite Armor? War Mode? Class Redesigns? Group Finder? And that's just from expansion releases.

What features did not get implemented?

From SL, Torghast giving Vault loot, Coins being useable to target Vault loot. Probably the worst offender is flying mount combat which is on the box set of Wrath.

[Makorus]

From SL, Torghast giving Vault loot, Coins being useable to target Vault loot. Probably the worst offender is flying mount combat which is on the box set of Wrath.

Where is this "Torghast in Great Vault" stuff coming from? I keep reading about that, but I don't ever remember hearing about it, nor do I find anything when I look it up.

Same with bonus rolls coming back. I can't find it mentioned anywhere other than wishful thinking.