Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Nymrohd]

Maybe different people can see different things as important features. You are both right and wrong. A new continent, a new class, new talents, new profession revamp + gear, dragonriding + customizable drakes, new class/race combos - these are all primary features.

And no, Torghast and Island Expeditions are not suddenly "more features" than anything else, kekW.

Still, the most substantial amount of content by far given in any expansion IS the new continent. What different people deem as important doesn't change that fact. The lion's share of effort to create any expansion is creating the continent and instances and populating them with mobs, questlines and events. A new class or race is a scale of magnitude less work.

[Dracullus]

Still, the most substantial amount of content by far given in any expansion IS the new continent. What different people deem as important doesn't change that fact. The lion's share of effort to create any expansion is creating the continent and instances and populating them with mobs, questlines and events. A new class or race is a scale of magnitude less work.

New raids, dungeons and zones are not content, duh. Btw, next expansion you will see why Blizzard was pushing borrowed power so hard despite complains after Legion. When in 11.0 Blizzard introduce only new talent row (can't do more if they want keep this system for at least 3-4 expansions), same idiots will scream how expansion has nothing to offer for your character power.

[Nymrohd]

New raids, dungeons and zones are not content, duh. Btw, next expansion you will see why Blizzard was pushing borrowed power so hard despite complains after Legion. When in 11.0 Blizzard introduce only new talent row (can't do more if they want keep this system for at least 3-4 expansions), same idiots will scream how expansion has nothing to offer for your character power.

Please tell me this is sarcasm. Because some people are saying exactly this and mean it . . .

[Lady Atia]

New raids, dungeons and zones are not content, duh. Btw, next expansion you will see why Blizzard was pushing borrowed power so hard despite complains after Legion. When in 11.0 Blizzard introduce only new talent row (can't do more if they want keep this system for at least 3-4 expansions), same idiots will scream how expansion has nothing to offer for your character power.

Let them scream? Character power should only come from talents and gear. Everything else should be cosmetic. Just give me housing in 11.0 aswell as a visual revamp for the old zones aswell as lots of mounts and I'm happy.

[Sunge]

I only hope that they include equipment templates like other mmos like Guild Wars 2 have. The equipment manager that wow has right now sucks.

[Makabreska]

New raids, dungeons and zones are not content, duh. Btw, next expansion you will see why Blizzard was pushing borrowed power so hard despite complains after Legion. When in 11.0 Blizzard introduce only new talent row (can't do more if they want keep this system for at least 3-4 expansions), same idiots will scream how expansion has nothing to offer for your character power.

I mean, who gives a crap about those few imbeciles? Literally few days after DF reveal we got some people screaming "Where is Toghast? Where are borrowed powers? Why the zones look so bland? Who is the main villain?". You will always get these, and paying any attention to them is not the way to develop a game.

[Nymrohd]

Let them scream? Character power should only come from talents and gear. Everything else should be cosmetic. Just give me housing in 11.0 aswell as a visual revamp for the old zones aswell as lots of mounts and I'm happy.

To be fair, when the artifact system was introduced back in Legion, I don't think it was ever explicit that everything would be lost by the expansion's end.

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I mean, who gives a crap about those few imbeciles? Literally few days after DF reveal we got some people screaming "Where is Toghast? Where are borrowed powers? Why the zones look so bland? Who is the main villain?". You will always get these and paying any attention to them is not the way to develop a game.

I will say that I'd like a feature like Island Expeditions or Torghast but they didn't really manage to nail it yet. I mean if we had the amazing variety of Island Expeditions (both with the number of Islands and the possible mobs) combined with their robust reward system but with gameplay akin to Torghast (including the ability to play solo), I'd spend a lot of time there. Even more if there was some gear involved if you went for the more challenging version.

[Nyel]

What on earth? I am not buying an expansion to play a new class, I am buying an expansion to play the new quests and instances in the new zones. That's the primary feature. That is what is always listed first, the continent itself.

I'm pretty sure if you would start a poll on that topic, only a minority would consider new zones a feature.

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Please tell me this is sarcasm. Because some people are saying exactly this and mean it . . .

Raids, dungeons and zones are content and not features.

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Btw, next expansion you will see why Blizzard was pushing borrowed power so hard despite complains after Legion. When in 11.0 Blizzard introduce only new talent row (can't do more if they want keep this system for at least 3-4 expansions), same idiots will scream how expansion has nothing to offer for your character power.

I agree here.

I think borrowed power itself wasn't bad. The problem was the constant reset for borrowed power systems. If they would have developed something with staying power instead of three different systems for three expansions the situation would be entirely different.

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To be fair, when the artifact system was introduced back in Legion, I don't think it was ever explicit that everything would be lost by the expansion's end.

Yep, this. Pretty sure people were not expecting to lose everything after Legion. This was the huge shock that came with borrowed power each and every time. And that's the reason why the first weeks / months of an expansion from pre-patch to the first patch usually feel awful when it comes to character progression. You started at 100%, where then brought down to 0% and slowly tried to climb back to 100% throughout the next patches. Horrible experience. Legion -> BfA was way worse than BfA -> Shadowlands though.

[Lady Atia]

To be fair, when the artifact system was introduced back in Legion, I don't think it was ever explicit that everything would be lost by the expansion's end.

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I will say that I'd like a feature like Island Expeditions or Torghast but they didn't really manage to nail it yet. I mean if we had the amazing variety of Island Expeditions (both with the number of Islands and the possible mobs) combined with their robust reward system but with gameplay akin to Torghast (including the ability to play solo), I'd spend a lot of time there. Even more if there was some gear involved if you went for the more challenging version.

And that's why the artifacts still worked out as the best "borrowed power system" - simply because we didn't know until the end that it was borrowed power. Originally people thought it was just the new norm going forward, hence you had all the hype. Than BfA showed us that Borrowed Power would be the new thing each expansion and it felt bad. Covenants f.e. .... when they were announced we already knew that we would leave them behind once 10.0 hits. Why should anyone be invested in it knowing it has a date of expire on it? They really need to continue to focus on evergreen stuff that stays relevant forever if they want to get people back.

[Dracullus]

Please tell me this is sarcasm. Because some people are saying exactly this and mean it . . .

Do I really have to?

I mean, who gives a crap about those few imbeciles? Literally few days after DF reveal we got some people screaming "Where is Toghast? Where are borrowed powers? Why the zones look so bland? Who is the main villain?". You will always get these and paying any attention to them is not the way to develop a game.

Depends. If Asmon (or somene who earned influence over years) agree with some imbecile, it affects whole community and put pressure on Blizzard. Just look at "make loot matter" thing in 9.0. From minor things I remember how I was making fun of Asmon complaing about not looting staff and daggers on his warrior main. Few days ago I leveled new char and saw leather armor drops from rares on my DK... xD.

Thankfully Blizzard didn't listen to other genius ideas like removing LFR.

I agree here.

I think borrowed power itself wasn't bad. The problem was the constant reset for borrowed power systems. If they would have developed something with staying power instead of three different systems for three expansions the situation would be entirely different.

10.0 will be more praised than 8.0/9.0, but this will come with cost in the future. 8.0 was horrible, but 7.0 and 9.0 had clear and consistent path. Both made different mistakes though - Legion ultra grind, SL giving everything like candies, making whole system dead weight.

Good solution would be grind, but account-wide grind and making these powers always useful in the future - let's say artifact/legiondaries always useful for mage tower, legion m+ and timewalking raids. But now their hands are tied. We will need at least one full expansion complaining about "no progression". I expect it very soon into 11.0, during SL people forgot about all good changes in like 5 minutes.

[Nymrohd]

10.0 will be more praised than 8.0/9.0, but this will come with cost in the future. 8.0 was horrible, but 7.0 and 9.0 had clear and consistent path. Both made different mistakes though - Legion ultra grind, SL giving everything like candies, making whole system dead weight.

Good solution would be grind, but account-wide grind and making these powers always useful in the future - let's say artifact/legiondaries always useful for mage tower, legion m+ and timewalking raids. But now their hands are tied. We will need at least one full expansion complaining about "no progression". I expect it very soon into 11.0, during SL people forgot about all good changes in like 5 minutes.

Well BfA has different systems in each patch which was . . . special. I still think Essences are the best system though, mostly because it allowed for a lot of horizontal progression. But then again, Essences are the closest system to talents.

[Lady Atia]

Well BfA has different systems in each patch which was . . . special. I still think Essences are the best system though, mostly because it allowed for a lot of horizontal progression. But then again, Essences are the closest system to talents.

Essences? You mean the weird things that didn't even gave us anything for customization (unlike Artifact Weapons which atleast became transmog options), which will prolly stop working in timewalking in 1-2 expansions down the line? Yeah. Totally great system that wasn't a total waste of ressources.

[Nymrohd]

Essences? You mean the weird things that didn't even gave us anything for customization (unlike Artifact Weapons which atleast became transmog options), which will prolly stop working in timewalking in 1-2 expansions down the line? Yeah. Totally great system that wasn't a total waste of ressources.

Essences gave us interesting abilities you could gain from multiple types of content which came at different grades and had unique SFX (including a legendary version). They offered horizontal progression because each added essence still had to compete with the existing essences. They modified your gameplay without completely transforming it; stripping your character from their essences would not suddenly make the character play worse, just weaker).

[Veluren]

Yeah, of BFA's bad decisions, I think essences were probably some of the more decent decisions. my gripes were mostly how brutally alt-unfriendly most of them were

Kinda hoping to see things like Reaping Flame come back in some form, maybe give them as class-flavored talents for the ones that got the most competitive use out of them.

[huth]

He does say "Some of them are soulbound. I can include those materials". So not "I can include some materials". Just after that they say they don't want people to just be buying items with gold. The entire point seems to be to effectively let them drop crafting reagents as additional loot that requires a social component and engages the crafting system.

Ultimately, the point here is that you can provide soulbound items for others to craft you something, i.e. you can make use of soulbound materials even if you yourself do not have a crafting profession.

[Lady Atia]

Essences gave us interesting abilities you could gain from multiple types of content which came at different grades and had unique SFX (including a legendary version). They offered horizontal progression because each added essence still had to compete with the existing essences. They modified your gameplay without completely transforming it; stripping your character from their essences would not suddenly make the character play worse, just weaker).

And in the end they were boring stuff that got tossed away into the bin after BfA? They are as interesting as the lame legion/shadowlands style legendaries, but without transmog lol. Talents are 10000 times better.

[Nyel]

10.0 will be more praised than 8.0/9.0, but this will come with cost in the future. 8.0 was horrible, but 7.0 and 9.0 had clear and consistent path. Both made different mistakes though - Legion ultra grind, SL giving everything like candies, making whole system dead weight.

Good solution would be grind, but account-wide grind and making these powers always useful in the future - let's say artifact/legiondaries always useful for mage tower, legion m+ and timewalking raids. But now their hands are tied. We will need at least one full expansion complaining about "no progression". I expect it very soon into 11.0, during SL people forgot about all good changes in like 5 minutes.

Yeah, if the talent revamp gives us partially what we had through Covenants and Legendaries, we're not losing much. But I fear what happens after we reach max level. Just 10 new talent points and that's it? Overall it's very meh, because your max level progression is relegated to gear again, which... is okay, but not fun either. I liked how you progressed your class throughout an expansion and I did enjoy it in Shadowlands, but without the horrible pre-patch weeks until all the new systems start going.

Overall I think you're right with your assumption though, people won't like it. The problem is, Blizzard is doing another hard cut again instead of trying to find a middle path. Account-wide progression would be an easy way to "fix" things and make playing alts fun.

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Yeah, of BFA's bad decisions, I think essences were probably some of the more decent decisions. my gripes were mostly how brutally alt-unfriendly most of them were

Kinda hoping to see things like Reaping Flame come back in some form, maybe give them as class-flavored talents for the ones that got the most competitive use out of them.

They came too late. Should have been part of 8.1 and the entire expansion would have played differently. Heck, maybe even part of 8.0 and you could gain new Essences each patch.

[Khaza-R]

And in the end they were boring stuff that got tossed away into the bin after BfA? They are as interesting as the lame legion/shadowlands style legendaries, but without transmog lol. Talents are 10000 times better.

I don't disagree about talents but TBF a leased power system should be designed to be thrown away. Legion Artifacts while fun to acquire and unlock post-nerfs also made most classes feel like absolute shit when they were removed in the 8.0 pre-patch. That's sort of the paradoxical nature of borrowed power systems. The less you miss them, the better designed they are.

[Sondrelk]

Yeah, of BFA's bad decisions, I think essences were probably some of the more decent decisions. my gripes were mostly how brutally alt-unfriendly most of them were

Kinda hoping to see things like Reaping Flame come back in some form, maybe give them as class-flavored talents for the ones that got the most competitive use out of them.

I am not convinced. They were okay, but so much in BfA was absolute garbage that it's difficult to say for sure whether it was just the best balanced system compared to boring Azerite traits and OP corruptions.

It was neat and worked fine, but it had a long way to go before it could have been called something truly great. Maybe if the abilities were more unique and themed to your class instead.

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Yeah, if the talent revamp gives us partially what we had through Covenants and Legendaries, we're not losing much. But I fear what happens after we reach max level. Just 10 new talent points and that's it? Overall it's very meh, because your max level progression is relegated to gear again, which... is okay, but not fun either. I liked how you progressed your class throughout an expansion and I did enjoy it in Shadowlands, but without the horrible pre-patch weeks until all the new systems start going.

Overall I think you're right with your assumption though, people won't like it. The problem is, Blizzard is doing another hard cut again instead of trying to find a middle path. Account-wide progression would be an easy way to "fix" things and make playing alts fun.

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They came too late. Should have been part of 8.1 and the entire expansion would have played differently. Heck, maybe even part of 8.0 and you could gain new Essences each patch.

At max level it sounded like you might possibly get gear pieces with +1 talent point in a specific ability, which should work as a max level progression systems.

[Berkilak]

At max level it sounded like you might possibly get gear pieces with +1 talent point in a specific ability, which should work as a max level progression systems.

I sure hope not. That would void the entire premise of ending borrowed power.