Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Makabreska]

I sure hope not. That would void the entire premise of ending borrowed power.

First of all, borrowed powers are not going away. We till have tier sets. Secondly, a gear piece with a single talent point (even multiple such gear pieces) are not comparable to power gains we got and lost since Legion.

[Dracullus]

At max level it sounded like you might possibly get gear pieces with +1 talent point in a specific ability, which should work as a max level progression systems.

No need for that. We are de facto living in that world where gear is only progression at least since 9.2, but also in whole SL you got best thing at max level and then it was just few soulbind passive stuff. Playing around with different talents will be more fun, because you don't have to run around different NPCs and you can save different builds. Sets fill that crave for gaining something new every season.

Nah, in 10.0 there is very low chance they screw it up. We won't play with '10 new points' on max level, but ALL of them, whole thing is fresh. Problems starts in 11.0. It will require some big feature like housing or revamp to cover lack of new progression system.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

No need for that. We are de facto living in that world where gear is only progression at least since 9.2, but also in whole SL you got best thing at max level and then it was just few soulbind passive stuff. Playing around with different talents will be more fun, because you don't have to run around different NPCs and you can save different builds. Sets fill that crave for gaining something new every season.

Nah, in 10.0 there is very low chance they screw it up. We won't play with '10 new points' on max level, but ALL of them, whole thing is fresh. Problems starts in 11.0. It will require some big feature like housing or revamp to cover lack of new progression system.

I've heard nothing about talents on gear where the heck is this coming from.

[Makabreska]

I've heard nothing about talents on gear where the heck is this coming from.

Just a possibility they could do with new talent system.

[Sondrelk]

No need for that. We are de facto living in that world where gear is only progression at least since 9.2, but also in whole SL you got best thing at max level and then it was just few soulbind passive stuff. Playing around with different talents will be more fun, because you don't have to run around different NPCs and you can save different builds. Sets fill that crave for gaining something new every season.

Nah, in 10.0 there is very low chance they screw it up. We won't play with '10 new points' on max level, but ALL of them, whole thing is fresh. Problems starts in 11.0. It will require some big feature like housing or revamp to cover lack of new progression system.

What is wrong with that system though? Most talents will probably be things like 2% crit chance on Bloodthirst, or 10% shorter cast time on Frostbolt.
It's not like you will get a gear piece that gives you a completely new ability.

- - - Updated - - -

I've heard nothing about talents on gear where the heck is this coming from.

Now that you mention it, might have just been someone suggesting that it could work the same way artifacts did where a system like that was in full effect for the artifacts.
If it was mentioned it was offhandedly in some dev interview somewhere.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Now that you mention it, might have just been someone suggesting that it could work the same way artifacts did where a system like that was in full effect for the artifacts.
If it was mentioned it was offhandedly in some dev interview somewhere.

I don't think they should do that, borrowed power has divided people enough, don't need more of it. That and I think artifacts sorta helped because of the fact it was a new idea(To wow anyways). I don't think it would have the same success.

[Eurhetemec]

First of all, borrowed powers are not going away. We till have tier sets. Secondly, a gear piece with a single talent point (even multiple such gear pieces) are not comparable to power gains we got and lost since Legion.

I mean, I know it's fun to misuse terminology to confuse the issue, but the stuff people referred to as "borrowed power" is absolutely going away. Tier sets long predate that concept, and don't have the same big issues as it. In particular, tier sets are earned over the course of normal gameplay - raiding, generally - and their power gain is usually small (if balanced correctly) and quite tightly specific. Further, tier sets are lost equally naturally - you ditch them because they're not as good as the gear you have now (again, if balanced correctly).

The objections to "borrowed power" were because the systems were gigantic and far-reaching, and you had to engage hard and regularly with those systems in order to obtain your power, and had to do an awful lot of gameplay that wasn't what you really wanted to do ensuring you got it. The buffs/abilities were huge and in many cases your character played like trash if you didn't have the power, or not enough of the power. And the power wasn't lost naturally, abandoned with the armour that had the minor buffs, instead the next expansion just stripped it from you entirely, often returning your character to a state of "not playing very well".

That's a night-and-day difference from tier sets. Temporary power will never go away entirely in a gear-treadmill game. It's part of the gear-treadmill concept and has been since literally day 1 of WoW. Borrowed power as in a massive set of powers you have to invest heavily in for an entire expansion, only to have them abruptly stripped away is absolutely going away. The closest thing is likely to be Dragonriding, which will have zero impact on combat/raid/dungeon/M+ gameplay, and will, based on what Blizzard has said, be extended if it proves successful/popular. So that might well turn out not to be borrowed at all.

[Sondrelk]

I don't think they should do that, borrowed power has divided people enough, don't need more of it.

We always have borrowed power, most recently with the return of tier sets.
Gear with +1 fake talent point is a flat improvement on a base system, rather than what players usually complain about with an expansion specific ability.

[Dracullus]

What is wrong with that system though? Most talents will probably be things like 2% crit chance on Bloodthirst, or 10% shorter cast time on Frostbolt.
It's not like you will get a gear piece that gives you a completely new ability.

I said no need for that, not that it would be some serious wrong thing. But DF simple progression will be selling point for returning players, so I think all thing you have to worry about will be: right talents, tier, right stats on gear and bis trinkets.

[Berkilak]

First of all, borrowed powers are not going away. We till have tier sets. Secondly, a gear piece with a single talent point (even multiple such gear pieces) are not comparable to power gains we got and lost since Legion.

Firstly, itemization is not borrowed power. We do not reinvent the paper doll system and reimagine stats every expansion. Itemization is a system that has been integral to the experience to the beginning. You might replace gear, sure, but the system has been present since the game's inception. Again, that is not a borrowed power system in any definition beyond the most technical, and at that point, the term has been rendered meaningless.

Secondly, if that additional talent point means you can unlock another power similar to a covenant ability or legendary passive... it's comparable. And completely uncreative.

[Sondrelk]

I said no need for that, not that it would be some serious wrong thing. But DF simple progression will be selling point for returning players, so I think all thing you have to worry about will be: right talents, tier, right stats on gear and bis trinkets.

The selling point is refinement of base systems, and I would consider gear among those. And one of the main things players often claim to want us gear that isn't just the usual main stat + two secondary stats.
Using the artifact system with fake talents would add some spice to the best gear, especially if they balance it properly.

- - - Updated - - -

Firstly, itemization is not borrowed power. We do not reinvent the paper doll system and reimagine stats every expansion. Itemization is a system that has been integral to the experience to the beginning. You might replace gear, sure, but the system has been present since the game's inception. Again, that is not a borrowed power system in any definition beyond the most technical, and at that point, the term has been rendered meaningless.

Secondly, if that additional talent point means you can unlock another power similar to a covenant ability or legendary passive... it's comparable. And completely uncreative.

I have to imagine it would work like how it did with Legion and the things whose name I forget that you slotted into your weapon.
Definitely an extra talent point, but not one that counted towards the talent tree progression.

[Berkilak]

I have to imagine it would work like how it did with Legion and the things whose name I forget that you slotted into your weapon.
Definitely an extra talent point, but not one that counted towards the talent tree progression.

That skews much too closely to another layer of power for my tastes. It's not technically a borrowed power system, but it's layering two evergreen systems in a way that creates the exact same problem that those borrowed power systems created. If they're going to go in that direction... might as well just give us Dragon Covenants. At least that would be more interesting.

[Valysar]

"Pre-order Dragonflight and get an exclusive access to our new mobile game beta"

Anyone see this coming ?

[boyzma]

My last impression was they allow to contribute mats you get anywhere, and the crafter may add his soulbound mats from raids or rare drops in general. You know, Joe casual goes to farm 10,000 gnome hides, and brings it to the crafting auction house, where raiding andy offers his services to create "The big axe of the raiding tauren", which needs both the 10,000 gnome hides and the slimey jar from that new big baddie in Hazzikostas new fun raid.

Raiding andy then sells his service for a large amount of gold Joe casual got from buying and selling a token. Joe casual gets the shiny bop Item from the raider then, the raider gets the money.

Sounds like a compensation of the recent boosting changes.

That's the way I understood it too. You supply what you can plus compensation and the crafter does the rest.

[Sondrelk]

That skews much too closely to another layer of power for my tastes. It's not technically a borrowed power system, but it's layering two evergreen systems in a way that creates the exact same problem that those borrowed power systems created. If they're going to go in that direction... might as well just give us Dragon Covenants. At least that would be more interesting.

Guess it's a question of preference. I know I would prefer if the best gear also had extra abilities, not even necessarily DPS related ones, and I would rather have some extra talent points than nothing.

[Berkilak]

Guess it's a question of preference. I know I would prefer if the best gear also had extra abilities, not even necessarily DPS related ones, and I would rather have some extra talent points than nothing.

I'm fine with it if the next quest green you get from 11.0 give you just as many or more talent points.

I don't want to go in reverse again.

[Alanar]

Well BfA has different systems in each patch which was . . . special. I still think Essences are the best system though, mostly because it allowed for a lot of horizontal progression. But then again, Essences are the closest system to talents.

I took it as panic in the office as so much backlash on the systems. So they had to come up with something.. i give them that. The outcome sucked tho.

[Khaza-R]

"Pre-order Dragonflight and get an exclusive access to our new mobile game beta"

Anyone see this coming ?

Depends on how far along it is in development. Diablo Immortal was announced in 2018.

Beta for the new WC mobile game could be years away still at this point.

[huth]

At max level it sounded like you might possibly get gear pieces with +1 talent point in a specific ability, which should work as a max level progression systems.

What they said was that they incorporated the necessary hooks to do this, but had no current plans to do anything with it. It does mean they could relatively easily introduce items that work like the Legion relics (or, for that matter, Diablo 2) with +x to whatever talent they want, though. The groundwork is already done.

- - - Updated - - -

Firstly, itemization is not borrowed power.

Yes, it is. All of it, even. You get power when you get an item, you lose it when you lose the item. The power isn't inherent to your character. It feels better than some of the other systems because you generally only lose the power to replace it with even more power, but conceptually, it's the same thing.

[Berkilak]

Yes, it is. All of it, even. You get power when you get an item, you lose it when you lose the item. The power isn't inherent to your character. It feels better than some of the other systems because you generally only lose the power to replace it with even more power, but conceptually, it's the same thing.

Do we reinvent the paper doll system where you equip items to certain slots aligning to body placement each patch?
Do we take a look at stats like strength, intelligence, haste, and mastery and rework them all from the ground up every expansion?
No?
Then itemization is not a "borrowed power" system.
This system has been present since the game's inception - it has been iterated upon, but never replaced.

Sure, you only use items temporarily, but this is not what people are talking about when they refer to borrowed power systems, and I think you're smart enough to catch this distinction. They don't expend resources redeveloping this functional system every expansion from the ground up for no discernable reason.