Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Marlamin]

Depends on how far along it is in development. Diablo Immortal was announced in 2018.

Beta for the new WC mobile game could be years away still at this point.

Big difference here is that Diablo Immortal is an outsourced title while the Warcraft game, at least currently, appears to be made inhouse.

[Eurhetemec]

Yes, it is. All of it, even. You get power when you get an item, you lose it when you lose the item. The power isn't inherent to your character. It feels better than some of the other systems because you generally only lose the power to replace it with even more power, but conceptually, it's the same thing.

This is one of those terrible "Ackshully in a purely technical sense if you ignore how the words are used in context and look purely at what the words technically mean, I am correct!".

So congrats huth.

You are technically correct, the best kind of correct.

But you're also obviously not advancing any useful concept, and no, it's not "conceptually the same thing", because with borrowed power, you spend the entire expansion (or content patch with BfA lol but that was obviously desperation) investing into this set of powers, which you have to go way out of your way to get (unlike tier sets which just come from raiding), and which you have to work hard to keep up with (even with catch-up mechanisms), only for your power to be just deleted when the next expansion starts, not naturally discarded as gear is.

I mean, that's the big thing here. WoW was designed, conceptualized, and marketed as a treadmill MMO like EQ. I.e. gear is direct upgrades, the level cap keeps going up, gear keeps getting better, you keep discarding stuff and getting new stuff. Tier sets are just part of that pattern.

Borrowed power in the normal sense of the usage (as opposed to the "Ackshully" sense you're using) breaks that pattern, because you get a massive gain in power not really related to gear in a direct sense (or not purely), which is then stripped away entirely, not because you're discarding gear (indeed you're still usually using it for the pre-patch) but because it's just been deleted.

And another big difference is that, at least Blizzard have done it, when borrowed power is stripped, your character usually feel pretty bad to play until well into the next expansion when new stuff comes in to support you. Whereas tier sets, whilst cute, if well-designed, don't normally leave you feeling "my character sux" when you lose them. Especially as you'll gain/lose multiple over the course of each expansion if you keep raiding.

[Berkilak]

In short, I've been engaged with the itemization system since I completed my first quest in 2004. Nearly 20 years later, I'm still engaged with the exact same system.

Meanwhile, artifacts have been disabled, wholesale, as a system. Azerite was irrelevant the moment 9.0 hit. And Covenants are the next system on the chopping block. These systems are all discarded wholesale. They are temporary. Borrowed.

I'll still be equipping new items on my Drac'thyr Evoker in 2024, just as I did with my Shaman in 2004. That's a permanent system.

[huth]

Do we reinvent the paper doll system where you equip items to certain slots aligning to body placement each patch?
Do we take a look at stats like strength, intelligence, haste, and mastery and rework them all from the ground up every expansion?
No?
Then itemization is not a "borrowed power" system.

No, because none of that has anything to do with what makes it a borrowed power system. That people misuse the term doesn't mean that it is something different.

But you're also obviously not advancing any useful concept, and no, it's not "conceptually the same thing", because with borrowed power, you spend the entire expansion (or content patch with BfA lol but that was obviously desperation) investing into this set of powers, which you have to go way out of your way to get (unlike tier sets which just come from raiding), and which you have to work hard to keep up with (even with catch-up mechanisms), only for your power to be just deleted when the next expansion starts, not naturally discarded as gear is.

You mean the exact same thing that happens with set bonuses? And during leveling in each new expansion as your old gear provides barely any power anymore?

I'm sorry, but your arguments do apply to gear as well. You failed to actually show any difference.

[Nymrohd]

I took it as panic in the office as so much backlash on the systems. So they had to come up with something.. i give them that. The outcome sucked tho.

I liked the design of essences. It was not at all alt friendly until much later but that would easily be solved. As I said, it was the best borrowed power system because it was designed in such a way that it both gave meaningful power however did not completely distort your spec so you would not miss it nearly as much if it went missing.
As for corruption honestly? I felt 8.3 was literally an entire expansion concept shoved into a single patch. Corruption could have been an expansion wide borrowed power system with the cloak as the expansion's artifact mechanic. Visions were solo/small group content. N'zoth could have been his own expansion's villain with the Sylvanas plot going cold for one expac to keep the burnout at a minimum. Have a few revamped zones (got Uldum and Vale, could have gotten other zones that could easily be relevant in a Nyalotha plot like Storm Peaks) and some new zones (maybe give us Azjol Nerub or make a zone out of Ahn'qiraj).

[huth]

In short, I've been engaged with the itemization system since I completed my first quest in 2004. Nearly 20 years later, I'm still engaged with the exact same system.

The system is the same. The borrowed power is not.

[Berkilak]

No, because none of that has anything to do with what makes it a borrowed power system. That people misuse the term doesn't mean that it is something different.

You are the party misusing the term to the point where it is meaningless. You may as well call classes themselves, as a concept, "borrowed power" because the developers rebalance them and do stat squishes and the like. When deliberately generalizing a term to that degree, it becomes utterly meaningless. I pointed out above what the distinction is that warrants the usage of the term. And again, I know you are smart enough to understand that distinction yourself.

That being said, thankfully your meaningless definition of the term is neither here nor there. Blizzard themselves understands the term, as a concept, and have deliberately and overtly removed all the borrowed power systems.

- - - Updated - - -

The system is the same. The borrowed power is not.

The system is the borrowed power. Artifacts. Azerite. Covenants. Systems that are discarded, wholesale. I know you understand this distinction. What is your goal in attempting to generalize the definition to the point of meaninglessness?

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

I am just happy that this topic is done and dealt with so I no longer need to see high end theorycrafters think that Borrowed Power is a necessity going forward. Fundamentally, I think we've wasted so much development time and the cost of all of this has been less creative output, less content output and just lack of basic betterment of the internal office.

People can repeat the Tier Set is borrowed power thing until they choke from their spittle and or turn blue in the face from anger. It doesn't matter, your logic is illogical as a famous Observer once said.

[AngerFork]

"Pre-order Dragonflight and get an exclusive access to our new mobile game beta"

Anyone see this coming ?

I personally see the marketing going the other way, similar to how WoW had tie ins with HotS. I could see a case where Blizz gives people some sort of a bonus item/pet/mount/etc in WoW for hitting an arbitrary spot in the new mobile game. Pending how much of a beta they even want to have/not have, I could absolutely see a case where that bonus would come in 9.2.5, perhaps as a part of the encrypted content.

Pet or mount would be most likely. An Allied Race would be a bit of a stretch for this, but would absolutely be a strong marketing tie-in if Blizz really wants to bring people in with a unique unlock.

[Lady Atia]

I don't disagree about talents but TBF a leased power system should be designed to be thrown away. Legion Artifacts while fun to acquire and unlock post-nerfs also made most classes feel like absolute shit when they were removed in the 8.0 pre-patch. That's sort of the paradoxical nature of borrowed power systems. The less you miss them, the better designed they are.

But they shouldn't design any system that is just there to be thrown away. It's a waste of ressources that won't have any really investment from your players. "Borrowed Power" does work on small scale only, like with tier sets or propper legendaries that are useful for one expansion only like in classic/tbc/wrath/cata - because even if they are gone, you still have the most important part of them - their transmog.

[Sondrelk]

I am just happy that this topic is done and dealt with so I no longer need to see high end theorycrafters think that Borrowed Power is a necessity going forward. Fundamentally, I think we've wasted so much development time and the cost of all of this has been less creative output, less content output and just lack of basic betterment of the internal office.

People can repeat the Tier Set is borrowed power thing until they choke from their spittle and or turn blue in the face from anger. It doesn't matter, your logic is illogical as a famous Observer once said.

It is quite a shame that some of the stuff in Dragonflight hasn't been done until now. Especially the talent revamp and Flying 2.0.

- - - Updated - - -

But they shouldn't design any system that is just there to be thrown away. It's a waste of ressources that won't have any really investment from your players. "Borrowed Power" does work on small scale only, like with tier sets or propper legendaries that are useful for one expansion only like in classic/tbc/wrath/cata - because even if they are gone, you still have the most important part of them - their transmog.

It's still relevant for at least a solid year of gameplay, and more likely 2.
Yes it's better to focus on stuff that will still give content even when deprecated like raids, mount grinds, or even expansion gimmicks like Torghast, but to say the systems are wasted is a bit disingenuous.

[Nymrohd]

It is quite a shame that some of the stuff in Dragonflight hasn't been done until now. Especially the talent revamp and Flying 2.0.

Ultimately the talent revamp was held back by borrowed power. They had to scrap that to focus back on the talents.

[Sondrelk]

Ultimately the talent revamp was held back by borrowed power. They had to scrap that to focus back on the talents.

Pretty much. The double whammy to me is that expansion abilities seem like they would slot better into this new talent system anyways, so really this would have been ideal all the way back in BfA at least.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Ultimately the talent revamp was held back by borrowed power. They had to scrap that to focus back on the talents.

Indeed, I think the talents needed it anyways. I was thinking it before expansion announcement.

[plz delete account]

If you mean Lordaeron, then yes Though I doubt the 9.2.5 stuff in Tirisfal will be Alliance related.

I meant your mmoc username.

[Nymrohd]

Pretty much. The double whammy to me is that expansion abilities seem like they would slot better into this new talent system anyways, so really this would have been ideal all the way back in BfA at least.

Yup, Essences and Covenant abilities could have easily been choices in a talent tree. And corruptions could have just been a tier set and legendary, we had expansion legendaries in MoP and WoD (both of them were borrowed power systems, both carried a lot of power, both locked a slot of gear).

[Kereberus]

Any leaks about the mobile game?

[Makabreska]

Any leaks about the mobile game?

Wellll we have to wait 48 min and it will be fully leaked and shit.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

Any leaks about the mobile game?

Its' a Clash of Clans clone, that's about it.

Due to the themeing some indicate that it may be a Clash of Clans with Gnomes and Goblins warring each other.

[Blayze]

Any leaks about the mobile game?

Apparently it's called Warcraft Arclight Rumble.