Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Nymrohd]

Essences? You mean the weird things that didn't even gave us anything for customization (unlike Artifact Weapons which atleast became transmog options), which will prolly stop working in timewalking in 1-2 expansions down the line? Yeah. Totally great system that wasn't a total waste of ressources.

Essences gave us interesting abilities you could gain from multiple types of content which came at different grades and had unique SFX (including a legendary version). They offered horizontal progression because each added essence still had to compete with the existing essences. They modified your gameplay without completely transforming it; stripping your character from their essences would not suddenly make the character play worse, just weaker).

[Veluren]

Yeah, of BFA's bad decisions, I think essences were probably some of the more decent decisions. my gripes were mostly how brutally alt-unfriendly most of them were

Kinda hoping to see things like Reaping Flame come back in some form, maybe give them as class-flavored talents for the ones that got the most competitive use out of them.

[huth]

He does say "Some of them are soulbound. I can include those materials". So not "I can include some materials". Just after that they say they don't want people to just be buying items with gold. The entire point seems to be to effectively let them drop crafting reagents as additional loot that requires a social component and engages the crafting system.

Ultimately, the point here is that you can provide soulbound items for others to craft you something, i.e. you can make use of soulbound materials even if you yourself do not have a crafting profession.

[Lady Atia]

Essences gave us interesting abilities you could gain from multiple types of content which came at different grades and had unique SFX (including a legendary version). They offered horizontal progression because each added essence still had to compete with the existing essences. They modified your gameplay without completely transforming it; stripping your character from their essences would not suddenly make the character play worse, just weaker).

And in the end they were boring stuff that got tossed away into the bin after BfA? They are as interesting as the lame legion/shadowlands style legendaries, but without transmog lol. Talents are 10000 times better.

[Nyel]

10.0 will be more praised than 8.0/9.0, but this will come with cost in the future. 8.0 was horrible, but 7.0 and 9.0 had clear and consistent path. Both made different mistakes though - Legion ultra grind, SL giving everything like candies, making whole system dead weight.

Good solution would be grind, but account-wide grind and making these powers always useful in the future - let's say artifact/legiondaries always useful for mage tower, legion m+ and timewalking raids. But now their hands are tied. We will need at least one full expansion complaining about "no progression". I expect it very soon into 11.0, during SL people forgot about all good changes in like 5 minutes.

Yeah, if the talent revamp gives us partially what we had through Covenants and Legendaries, we're not losing much. But I fear what happens after we reach max level. Just 10 new talent points and that's it? Overall it's very meh, because your max level progression is relegated to gear again, which... is okay, but not fun either. I liked how you progressed your class throughout an expansion and I did enjoy it in Shadowlands, but without the horrible pre-patch weeks until all the new systems start going.

Overall I think you're right with your assumption though, people won't like it. The problem is, Blizzard is doing another hard cut again instead of trying to find a middle path. Account-wide progression would be an easy way to "fix" things and make playing alts fun.

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Yeah, of BFA's bad decisions, I think essences were probably some of the more decent decisions. my gripes were mostly how brutally alt-unfriendly most of them were

Kinda hoping to see things like Reaping Flame come back in some form, maybe give them as class-flavored talents for the ones that got the most competitive use out of them.

They came too late. Should have been part of 8.1 and the entire expansion would have played differently. Heck, maybe even part of 8.0 and you could gain new Essences each patch.

[Khaza-R]

And in the end they were boring stuff that got tossed away into the bin after BfA? They are as interesting as the lame legion/shadowlands style legendaries, but without transmog lol. Talents are 10000 times better.

I don't disagree about talents but TBF a leased power system should be designed to be thrown away. Legion Artifacts while fun to acquire and unlock post-nerfs also made most classes feel like absolute shit when they were removed in the 8.0 pre-patch. That's sort of the paradoxical nature of borrowed power systems. The less you miss them, the better designed they are.

[Sondrelk]

Yeah, of BFA's bad decisions, I think essences were probably some of the more decent decisions. my gripes were mostly how brutally alt-unfriendly most of them were

Kinda hoping to see things like Reaping Flame come back in some form, maybe give them as class-flavored talents for the ones that got the most competitive use out of them.

I am not convinced. They were okay, but so much in BfA was absolute garbage that it's difficult to say for sure whether it was just the best balanced system compared to boring Azerite traits and OP corruptions.

It was neat and worked fine, but it had a long way to go before it could have been called something truly great. Maybe if the abilities were more unique and themed to your class instead.

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Yeah, if the talent revamp gives us partially what we had through Covenants and Legendaries, we're not losing much. But I fear what happens after we reach max level. Just 10 new talent points and that's it? Overall it's very meh, because your max level progression is relegated to gear again, which... is okay, but not fun either. I liked how you progressed your class throughout an expansion and I did enjoy it in Shadowlands, but without the horrible pre-patch weeks until all the new systems start going.

Overall I think you're right with your assumption though, people won't like it. The problem is, Blizzard is doing another hard cut again instead of trying to find a middle path. Account-wide progression would be an easy way to "fix" things and make playing alts fun.

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They came too late. Should have been part of 8.1 and the entire expansion would have played differently. Heck, maybe even part of 8.0 and you could gain new Essences each patch.

At max level it sounded like you might possibly get gear pieces with +1 talent point in a specific ability, which should work as a max level progression systems.

[Berkilak]

At max level it sounded like you might possibly get gear pieces with +1 talent point in a specific ability, which should work as a max level progression systems.

I sure hope not. That would void the entire premise of ending borrowed power.

[Makabreska]

I sure hope not. That would void the entire premise of ending borrowed power.

First of all, borrowed powers are not going away. We till have tier sets. Secondly, a gear piece with a single talent point (even multiple such gear pieces) are not comparable to power gains we got and lost since Legion.

[Dracullus]

At max level it sounded like you might possibly get gear pieces with +1 talent point in a specific ability, which should work as a max level progression systems.

No need for that. We are de facto living in that world where gear is only progression at least since 9.2, but also in whole SL you got best thing at max level and then it was just few soulbind passive stuff. Playing around with different talents will be more fun, because you don't have to run around different NPCs and you can save different builds. Sets fill that crave for gaining something new every season.

Nah, in 10.0 there is very low chance they screw it up. We won't play with '10 new points' on max level, but ALL of them, whole thing is fresh. Problems starts in 11.0. It will require some big feature like housing or revamp to cover lack of new progression system.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

No need for that. We are de facto living in that world where gear is only progression at least since 9.2, but also in whole SL you got best thing at max level and then it was just few soulbind passive stuff. Playing around with different talents will be more fun, because you don't have to run around different NPCs and you can save different builds. Sets fill that crave for gaining something new every season.

Nah, in 10.0 there is very low chance they screw it up. We won't play with '10 new points' on max level, but ALL of them, whole thing is fresh. Problems starts in 11.0. It will require some big feature like housing or revamp to cover lack of new progression system.

I've heard nothing about talents on gear where the heck is this coming from.

[Makabreska]

I've heard nothing about talents on gear where the heck is this coming from.

Just a possibility they could do with new talent system.

[Sondrelk]

No need for that. We are de facto living in that world where gear is only progression at least since 9.2, but also in whole SL you got best thing at max level and then it was just few soulbind passive stuff. Playing around with different talents will be more fun, because you don't have to run around different NPCs and you can save different builds. Sets fill that crave for gaining something new every season.

Nah, in 10.0 there is very low chance they screw it up. We won't play with '10 new points' on max level, but ALL of them, whole thing is fresh. Problems starts in 11.0. It will require some big feature like housing or revamp to cover lack of new progression system.

What is wrong with that system though? Most talents will probably be things like 2% crit chance on Bloodthirst, or 10% shorter cast time on Frostbolt.
It's not like you will get a gear piece that gives you a completely new ability.

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I've heard nothing about talents on gear where the heck is this coming from.

Now that you mention it, might have just been someone suggesting that it could work the same way artifacts did where a system like that was in full effect for the artifacts.
If it was mentioned it was offhandedly in some dev interview somewhere.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Now that you mention it, might have just been someone suggesting that it could work the same way artifacts did where a system like that was in full effect for the artifacts.
If it was mentioned it was offhandedly in some dev interview somewhere.

I don't think they should do that, borrowed power has divided people enough, don't need more of it. That and I think artifacts sorta helped because of the fact it was a new idea(To wow anyways). I don't think it would have the same success.

[Eurhetemec]

First of all, borrowed powers are not going away. We till have tier sets. Secondly, a gear piece with a single talent point (even multiple such gear pieces) are not comparable to power gains we got and lost since Legion.

I mean, I know it's fun to misuse terminology to confuse the issue, but the stuff people referred to as "borrowed power" is absolutely going away. Tier sets long predate that concept, and don't have the same big issues as it. In particular, tier sets are earned over the course of normal gameplay - raiding, generally - and their power gain is usually small (if balanced correctly) and quite tightly specific. Further, tier sets are lost equally naturally - you ditch them because they're not as good as the gear you have now (again, if balanced correctly).

The objections to "borrowed power" were because the systems were gigantic and far-reaching, and you had to engage hard and regularly with those systems in order to obtain your power, and had to do an awful lot of gameplay that wasn't what you really wanted to do ensuring you got it. The buffs/abilities were huge and in many cases your character played like trash if you didn't have the power, or not enough of the power. And the power wasn't lost naturally, abandoned with the armour that had the minor buffs, instead the next expansion just stripped it from you entirely, often returning your character to a state of "not playing very well".

That's a night-and-day difference from tier sets. Temporary power will never go away entirely in a gear-treadmill game. It's part of the gear-treadmill concept and has been since literally day 1 of WoW. Borrowed power as in a massive set of powers you have to invest heavily in for an entire expansion, only to have them abruptly stripped away is absolutely going away. The closest thing is likely to be Dragonriding, which will have zero impact on combat/raid/dungeon/M+ gameplay, and will, based on what Blizzard has said, be extended if it proves successful/popular. So that might well turn out not to be borrowed at all.

[Sondrelk]

I don't think they should do that, borrowed power has divided people enough, don't need more of it.

We always have borrowed power, most recently with the return of tier sets.
Gear with +1 fake talent point is a flat improvement on a base system, rather than what players usually complain about with an expansion specific ability.

[Dracullus]

What is wrong with that system though? Most talents will probably be things like 2% crit chance on Bloodthirst, or 10% shorter cast time on Frostbolt.
It's not like you will get a gear piece that gives you a completely new ability.

I said no need for that, not that it would be some serious wrong thing. But DF simple progression will be selling point for returning players, so I think all thing you have to worry about will be: right talents, tier, right stats on gear and bis trinkets.

[Berkilak]

First of all, borrowed powers are not going away. We till have tier sets. Secondly, a gear piece with a single talent point (even multiple such gear pieces) are not comparable to power gains we got and lost since Legion.

Firstly, itemization is not borrowed power. We do not reinvent the paper doll system and reimagine stats every expansion. Itemization is a system that has been integral to the experience to the beginning. You might replace gear, sure, but the system has been present since the game's inception. Again, that is not a borrowed power system in any definition beyond the most technical, and at that point, the term has been rendered meaningless.

Secondly, if that additional talent point means you can unlock another power similar to a covenant ability or legendary passive... it's comparable. And completely uncreative.

[Sondrelk]

I said no need for that, not that it would be some serious wrong thing. But DF simple progression will be selling point for returning players, so I think all thing you have to worry about will be: right talents, tier, right stats on gear and bis trinkets.

The selling point is refinement of base systems, and I would consider gear among those. And one of the main things players often claim to want us gear that isn't just the usual main stat + two secondary stats.
Using the artifact system with fake talents would add some spice to the best gear, especially if they balance it properly.

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Firstly, itemization is not borrowed power. We do not reinvent the paper doll system and reimagine stats every expansion. Itemization is a system that has been integral to the experience to the beginning. You might replace gear, sure, but the system has been present since the game's inception. Again, that is not a borrowed power system in any definition beyond the most technical, and at that point, the term has been rendered meaningless.

Secondly, if that additional talent point means you can unlock another power similar to a covenant ability or legendary passive... it's comparable. And completely uncreative.

I have to imagine it would work like how it did with Legion and the things whose name I forget that you slotted into your weapon.
Definitely an extra talent point, but not one that counted towards the talent tree progression.

[Berkilak]

I have to imagine it would work like how it did with Legion and the things whose name I forget that you slotted into your weapon.
Definitely an extra talent point, but not one that counted towards the talent tree progression.

That skews much too closely to another layer of power for my tastes. It's not technically a borrowed power system, but it's layering two evergreen systems in a way that creates the exact same problem that those borrowed power systems created. If they're going to go in that direction... might as well just give us Dragon Covenants. At least that would be more interesting.