Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Sondrelk]

You are being obtuse. The point was fairly clear. Warcraft Dragons use bulky models. There ARE slim dragons in fantasy but WoW has always used bulky ones. So when they choose to make a humanoid version of them and they choose a gecko, it's weird.

Are they that bulky though? Or for that matter, are the Dracthyr that slim?
Seems ot me like they took a generic fantasy dragon and made it look convincingly like a creature of that size. Whereas the Dracthyr are designed as humanoid dragons with an androgynous appearance. Making it slimmer seems more to me like a natural progression of making it less masculine, which is a problem that the "fixed" version of the Dracthyr above have.
Sure it looks more menacing, but the broad shoulders and prnounced chin makes it immediately apparent to human pattern recognition that this looks like a male, which is an issue the other one doesnt have.

Regardless, sliders are going to be a thing, so probably won't matter that much in the grand scheme.

[Nymrohd]

TBH, they started to implement slicker models in Legion.

Even that has wide shoulders to be fair.

[rhorle]

You are being obtuse. The point was fairly clear. Warcraft Dragons use bulky models. There ARE slim dragons in fantasy but WoW has always used bulky ones. So when they choose to make a humanoid version of them and they choose a gecko, it's weird.

Because they are not dragons. They are Dragonkin. Dragonkin have appeared as dog-like Drakeadon, imp-like Dragonman, long slender cloud serpants, Dragonhawks as well as the "bulky" ones you reference. They choose to go with something that is more like a Dragonman that we have seen before. Stop trying to use the lore of WoW as a shield when this is and always has been about the image some people have in their heads of Dragons rather then a basis in lore.

[Sondrelk]

They did alr say you can't.

I think they said that shoulders, tabards, and maybe belts would be visible.
Still though, if they can't then we should still make the argument that they should be able to. Just like how their racial should scale with Dragonriding skill. We don't have to take everything that is being said for granted, especially when it's a completely new thing to WoW.

[Nymrohd]

Are they that bulky though? Or for that matter, are the Dracthyr that slim?
Seems ot me like they took a generic fantasy dragon and made it look convincingly like a creature of that size. Whereas the Dracthyr are designed as humanoid dragons with an androgynous appearance. Making it slimmer seems more to me like a natural progression of making it less masculine, which is a problem that the "fixed" version of the Dracthyr above have.
Sure it looks more menacing, but the broad shoulders and prnounced chin makes it immediately apparent to human pattern recognition that this looks like a male, which is an issue the other one doesnt have.

Regardless, sliders are going to be a thing, so probably won't matter that much in the grand scheme.

First, we've not been told anything about sliders. We will probably get a toggle for a different body type. We still have to wait and see what it will look like.

And what do you mean are they that bulky? Alexstrasza's forearms are nearly as thick as her head.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

You are being obtuse. The point was fairly clear. Warcraft Dragons use bulky models. There ARE slim dragons in fantasy but WoW has always used bulky ones. So when they choose to make a humanoid version of them and they choose a gecko, it's weird.







Heck there is even an argument about why it could be considered lazy and it has nothing to do with Visage forms being limited. We are getting a new race that can only show TWO items and their weapon in their primary combat form. Everyone who thought diaper gnomes would open the gates for races with different body types must be rudely disillusioned; instead they opened the gates for races with just no mogs at all.

Yeah but you aren't going to be playing Warcraft dragons period, just something similar enough to make you feel like one but you aren't outright one. I understand that the "Fixed" one looks better but I trufully don't see much wrong with the original design. They don't look like a gecko, they look like a mix of humanoid and dragon.

[Sondrelk]

Even that has wide shoulders to be fair.

I think the main difference with shoulder width on dragons and Dracthyr are that you don't look at that concept image and think it looks masculine or feminine, you look at it and see a dragon.
With Dracthyr meanwhile they look similar enough to humans that subtle things like shoulder or hip width, angularity of chin, and more end up looking either Masculine or Feminine, which is an issue when it's supposed to look Androgynous.

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First, we've not been told anything about sliders. We will probably get a toggle for a different body type. We still have to wait and see what it will look like.

And what do you mean are they that bulky? Alexstrasza's forearms are nearly as thick as her head.

Sliders is probably wrong, but still something to have variance in appearance. Sliders is just the shorthand that popped into my head when I wrote that.

And what I mean is, are they bulky, or do they just look like a generic fantasy dragon?

[Nymrohd]

Because they are not dragons. They are Dragonkin. Dragonkin have appeared as dog-like Drakeadon, imp-like Dragonman, long slender cloud serpants as well as the "bulky" ones you reference. They choose to go with something that is more like a Dragonman that we have seen before. Stop trying to use the lore of WoW as a shield when this is and always has been about the image some people have in their heads of Dragons rather then a basis in lore.

Cloud serpents are not dragons or at least not related to the aspects (and certainly not to Neltharion). They are a different creature altogether. Drakonids and Dragonspawn are bulky (and the female dragonspawn show significant sexual dimoprhism). Yes, the three dragonmen in the game are slim (they are also failed experiments that are depicted as idiots for what it's worth). And yes, people prefer bulkier models. That is a separate issue. WoW has consistently depicted draconic creatures related to the Dragonflights with forms that have more exaggerated shoulders.

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Yeah but you aren't going to be playing Warcraft dragons period, just something similar enough to make you feel like one but you aren't outright one. I understand that the "Fixed" one looks better but I trufully don't see much wrong with the original design. They don't look like a gecko, they look like a mix of humanoid and dragon.

They look entirely like an Argonian so yes, like a gecko. And I am not going to be playing them anyway since I don't like how they look nor do they satisfy my fantasy when playing a dragon visually.

[rhorle]

Cloud serpents are not dragons or at least not related to the aspects (and certainly not to Neltharion). They are a different creature altogether. Drakonids and Dragonspawn are bulky (and the female dragonspawn show significant sexual dimoprhism). Yes, the three dragonmen in the game are slim (they are also failed experiments that are depicted as idiots for what it's worth). And yes, people prefer bulkier models. That is a separate issue. WoW has consistently depicted draconic creatures related to the Dragonflights with forms that have more exaggerated shoulders.

Cloud serpents are considered dragons in lore. There are more then just Aspects when it comes to dragons. Drac'thyr are succesful expirements so it is silly to dismiss dragonman just because they are "failed". It doesn't matter what WoW has consistently depicted Aspect-related dragons as. What matter is what the lore says right? Dragons are not required to be bulky in the lore and it is silly to hold them to the standard that you admit is what people prefer rather then what the lore states is possible.

[Nymrohd]

I think the main difference with shoulder width on dragons and Dracthyr are that you don't look at that concept image and think it looks masculine or feminine, you look at it and see a dragon.
With Dracthyr meanwhile they look similar enough to humans that subtle things like shoulder or hip width, angularity of chin, and more end up looking either Masculine or Feminine, which is an issue when it's supposed to look Androgynous.

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Sliders is probably wrong, but still something to have variance in appearance. Sliders is just the shorthand that popped into my head when I wrote that.

And what I mean is, are they bulky, or do they just look like a generic fantasy dragon?

I am not sure what a generic fantasy dragon is. Western mythology actually has slim, serpentine dragons. If we look at actual iconography, both Fafnir and St. George and the Dragon show a massive snake-like creature. Modern western fantasy has used both. D&D largely has bulky dragons (even golds that are extremely long still have very pronounced shoulders and forearms). Most western games have followed the D&D depiction. Slim dragons tend to simply not be quadrupeds (and may not even have wings, like the classic image of the chinese dragon seen in the Cloud Serpent in WoW).

And honestly I think the Dracthyr look more non-gendered than they look androgynous. The former is more about lacking visual cues that are considered gendered while the letter is more about mixing them.

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Cloud serpents are considered dragons in lore. There are more then just Aspects when it comes to dragons. Drac'thyr are succesful expirements so it is silly to dismiss dragonman just because they are "failed". It doesn't matter what WoW has consistently depicted Aspect-related dragons as. What matter is what the lore says right? Dragons are not required to be bulky in the lore and it is silly to hold them to the standard that you admit is what people prefer rather then what the lore states is possible.

Cloud serpents are irrelevant because the Dracthyr are related to the classic five dragonflights. There could be a thousand different types of dragons in Azeroth but we are talking about something found in the Dragon Isles, home of the five dragonflights and created by Neltharion. And there is nothing silly about dismissing the Dragonmen if you account for their lore; they are a limited and failed necromantic experiment by Nefarian and within WoW they are always depicted negatively. Maloriak was a genius human cultist who devolved into a moron after the process. So yeah, that's not the prototype of what I'd want my character to be.

[Hitei]

WoW has consistently depicted draconic creatures related to the Dragonflights with forms that have more exaggerated shoulders.

This... isn't even accurate.






If anything, dragons have fairly slim shoulders for the game, which typically exaggerates shoulders. The difference here would probably be that dragons typically have exaggerated chests compared to limb length, but that's a typical feature for beasts, not humanoids. They also have large heads, but on a humanoid that's just going to look goofy as fuck.

edit: switched to the black Dracthyr for parity of 3/4 angle.

[Sondrelk]

I am not sure what a generic fantasy dragon is. Western mythology actually has slim, serpentine dragons. If we look at actual iconography, both Fafnir and St. George and the Dragon show a massive snake-like creature. Modern western fantasy has used both. D&D largely has bulky dragons (even golds that are extremely long still have very pronounced shoulders and forearms). Most western games have followed the D&D depiction. Slim dragons tend to simply not be quadrupeds (and may not even have wings, like the classic image of the chinese dragon seen in the Cloud Serpent in WoW).

And honestly I think the Dracthyr look more non-gendered than they look androgynous. The former is more about lacking visual cues that are considered gendered while the letter is more about mixing them.

Generic dragons as in the first thing that pops up when you search for "Dungeons and Dragon dragon". Or what is shown as a Dragon and not a Wyvern or Drake according to the generally accepted fantasy dragon appearances.
My point is that they don't look bulky according to this generic archetype. In fact when I search for images for them, they actually look like they have really slim shoulders. If anything it's the chest that is a bit too flat, as they wouldnt realistically be able to even flap their wings without a proper keelbone.

And the whole Androgynous/non-gendered thing is a bit of a pedantic argument. They look like they could be both male and female with no inherent biases arising from human pattern recognition.

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If anything, dragons have fairly slim shoulders for the game, which typically exaggerates shoulders. The difference here would probably be that dragons typically have exaggerated chests compared to limb length, but that's a typical feature for beasts, not humanoids. They also have large heads, but on a humanoid that's just going to look goofy as fuck.

edit: switched to the black Dracthyr for parity of 3/4 angle.

In thinking about it, I wonder if the problem with Dracthyr is simply that they lack a pronounced keelbone equivalent, and that expecting the Dracthyr to have that the rest of the body looks a bit out of proportion and lanky, as we are subconsciously expecting them to look a bit more bulky to accomodate the increased chest proportions.

Might be a bit of a reach, but maybe.

[Nymrohd]

This... isn't even accurate.
If anything, dragons have fairly slim shoulders for the game, which typically exaggerates shoulders. The difference here would probably be that dragons typically have exaggerated chests compared to limb length, but that's a typical feature for beasts, not humanoids. They also have large heads, but on a humanoid that's just going to look goofy as fuck.

Yes lovely, now pick pictures that show them head on instead of from the side (which distorts horizontal proportions) and show them standing instead of flying and with their hands folded in.

Her forearms together are the size of her torso.

[rhorle]

Cloud serpents are irrelevant because the Dracthyr are related to the classic five dragonflights. There could be a thousand different types of dragons in Azeroth but we are talking about something found in the Dragon Isles, home of the five dragonflights and created by Neltharion. And there is nothing silly about dismissing the Dragonmen if you account for their lore; they are a limited and failed necromantic experiment by Nefarian and within WoW they are always depicted negatively. Maloriak was a genius human cultist who devolved into a moron after the process. So yeah, that's not the prototype of what I'd want my character to be.

There are also proto-drakes found on the Dragon isles which are as related to the aspects as other dragons. They even fought against the Titan created aspects. You still can't just ignore any dragon lore. All you are doing is creating arbitrary rules for why your image of dragons should be what the Drac'thyr are based on rather then something that can be supported by lore. Like I said we already have had cenatur like Dragons, Dog dragons with multiple heads, and skinny man dragons. That already leaves an opening for what the Drac'thyr currently look like even if you restrict yourself to "Aspect-related" lore only.

Also it shows you don't understand lore if you think Maloriak would be a proto-type considering he was created thousands of years after the Drac'thyr. Drac'thyr could have been what the black flight was trying to recreate with Dragonmen but obviously failed. We also don't know how Drac'thyr were created and it could have included more then simply "aspect DNA" or whatever.

[Lahis]

In their visage form, yeah. Their propper dragon form is gender neutral which is awesome and makes sense because you know, all the other dragons ingame also don't have obvious differences between male and female ones. Honestly, it feels more like some people are afraid of the potential of creating a positive image for gender neutral / non-binary people lol.

Yeah. As much as I'd love to have some Dragon Boobs, gender neutral Dragon form makes sense for Warcraft.

[Sondrelk]

Yes lovely, now pick pictures that show them head on instead of from the side (which distorts horizontal proportions) and show them standing instead of flying and with their hands folded in.
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/vDrc0qz.png[IMG]
Her forearms together are the size of her torso.

I mean you say that. But the Dracthyr chest is so slim that I wouldnt be surprised if they are about the same in terms of proportions.

I don't think the proportions are so bad compared to proper WoW dragons as you are making it out to be. The more I look at Alexstrasza here the more I think they kinda nailed the Dracthyr.

[Hitei]

Yes lovely, now pick pictures that show them head on instead of from the side and show them standing instead of flying and with their hands folded in.

Her forearms together are the size of her torso.

Forearms... aren't shoulders?

I avoided using Alexstrasza's sitting animation because the shoulders are even less pronounced in that animation. She barely has them at all, they're just slight outward curves instead of even jutting out.

[Makabreska]

Her forearms together are the size of her torso.

These are still not very pronounced shoulders.

[Nymrohd]

In thinking about it, I wonder if the problem with Dracthyr is simply that they lack a pronounced keelbone equivalent, and that expecting the Dracthyr to have that the rest of the body looks a bit out of proportion and lanky, as we are subconsciously expecting them to look a bit more bulky to accomodate the increased chest proportions.

Could also be the neck tbh. Fairly long but also slim. WoW Dragons tend to have very thick (just look at Alex above).

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Yeah. As much as I'd love to have some Dragon Boobs, gender neutral Dragon form makes sense for Warcraft.

I honestly don't mind the gender neutral form but it does make me wonder if they will change female dragonspawn who have very female torsos (tiny waists and big boobs). I spent so much time in vanilla looking at that model (skinning them for black scales, that's how I got my first epic mount).

[Hitei]

These are still not very pronounced shoulders.

Seriously.