1. #56401
    Elemental Lord
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    8,061
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Sylvanas literally agreed with him and joked back that the difference between them was that she "served the Horde."
    The sarcamse and smirks were all over the place tho .

  2. #56402
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Not sure where the thing about Calia comes from, either, or how she could "use" Saa'ra.
    Yeah its not like theres an encrypted questline involving Saa'ra & Calia on the PTR or anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Your attempt at damage control fails because the Argent Crusade, who are objectively good guys, also thought that the Forsaken were acting like the Scourge.
    Citation needed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Do we have any reason to believe Auchenai constructs are is not created voluntarily?
    Undeath is voluntary. Unless the Jailer wants you to work for him. But that's really not a factor anymore.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Sylvanas literally agreed with him and joked back that the difference between them was that she "served the Horde."
    So she's a self-aware lich queen?
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Face it, back when they were led by Sylvanas, no one liked the Forsaken. The Alliance hated them, the rest of the Horde also hated them and kept them as allies only for strategic value, and pretty much everyone sane and good on Azeroth was either wary of them or wanted them gone.
    Blood Elves start at friendly with the Forsaken. That's more liked than the other horde races.

  3. #56403
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I think it probably just shows how poor the oversight is when it comes to lore. Compare it to other fantasy fiction franchises and you can see it's problematic.
    Basically. It's like everyone writes their own version of the characters without a solid nor consistent editorial oversight. Garrosh's swerve was just one of the most notorious demonstrations of this, until they one upped it with Sylvanas nonsensical characterization from Legion to BfA*

    *and this is not a "noo Sylvanas was never evil!!", it's about the misshandled characterization between point A and B, and then the course correction to C. A *sigh* morally grey character like Sylvanas could have always feasibly go either way, but the botched nature of how they went about it was just egregious. It just screams of a lack of cohesive vision when it comes to characterization and arcs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurkan View Post
    Also worth noting that according to old interviews, Stonetalon Garrosh was apparently by Afrasiabi, the team had some sort of miscommunication and they then settled on making him more villainous.
    That's what bothers me, the fact that such "miscomunications" happened. No one was really in charge make sure his characterization had consistency, almost as if they were just making it up along the way without an overseeing vision or goal.

  4. #56404
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Yeah its not like theres an encrypted questline involving Saa'ra & Calia on the PTR or anything.
    You mean the ones that are encrypted so we have no idea what they're about?

  5. #56405
    Quote Originally Posted by Zharikov View Post
    Because he is an outlier. Afrasiabi was in charge of Stonetalon, and deliberately wrote him differently from a way that the narrative team at the time didn't want as a whole. I will admit I liked Stonetalon Garrosh (even if Afrasiabi is a rapist pos and tried to deliberately tank every female character and anything he didn't like: see Teldrassil), but it did lead to a big disconnect from everywhere else he is presented.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yeah, as far as I can tell 9.2 is basically the new team 'picking up the pieces' of what Afrasiabi tried to ruin. I'm very interested to see what else they can do to try and heal over those wounds, from some of what we've datamined about 9.2.5, and eager to likewise see where Dragonflight goes.
    Except he is not an outlier at all.

    Everything that Stonetalon Garrosh stands for is what Cata Garrosh stands for, and it's what Theramore Garrosh stands for. Of course it doesn't match with what MoP Garrosh stands for, but that's called character development and it's literally what all the MoP quests are about.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Three Faced Goddess View Post
    RIP The Lich King. He will be missed... by me at the very least.
    They should have killed the Lich King off in Wrath instead of having a shitty "haha there must always be a lich king guys xd" plot twist (if you can even call it that).

    People give shit to the Shadowlands ending but that was a Million times worse.

  6. #56406
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Except he is not an outlier at all.

    Everything that Stonetalon Garrosh stands for is what Cata Garrosh stands for, and it's what Theramore Garrosh stands for. Of course it doesn't match with what MoP Garrosh stands for, but that's called character development and it's literally what all the MoP quests are about.

    - - - Updated - - -



    They should have killed the Lich King off in Wrath instead of having a shitty "haha there must always be a lich king guys xd" plot twist (if you can even call it that).

    People give shit to the Shadowlands ending but that was a Million times worse.
    The "always a lich king" could probably have worked if it was actually a ploy by the Old Gods as was seemingly hinted at by Yogg-Saron, as well as the Old God music sting during that raid cinematic.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  7. #56407
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Except he is not an outlier at all.

    Everything that Stonetalon Garrosh stands for is what Cata Garrosh stands for, and it's what Theramore Garrosh stands for. Of course it doesn't match with what MoP Garrosh stands for, but that's called character development and it's literally what all the MoP quests are about.

    - - - Updated - - -



    They should have killed the Lich King off in Wrath instead of having a shitty "haha there must always be a lich king guys xd" plot twist (if you can even call it that).

    People give shit to the Shadowlands ending but that was a Million times worse.
    I mean, say what you will, but even 8 years ago they admit that Stonetalon garrosh was written differently from everything else in Cataclysm

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.eng...e-azeroth.html

    I imagine it's because of the sheer scope of cata and the ridiculous number of quests and arcs they had to write, really, but it was still a disconnect. (honestly, crazy they even did it - compare the number of zone quests they had to do versus how many they typically do in an expansion.)

  8. #56408
    Quote Originally Posted by Zharikov View Post
    I mean, say what you will, but even 8 years ago they admit that Stonetalon garrosh was written differently from everything else in Cataclysm

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.eng...e-azeroth.html

    I imagine it's because of the sheer scope of cata and the ridiculous number of quests and arcs they had to write, really, but it was still a disconnect. (honestly, crazy they even did it - compare the number of zone quests they had to do versus how many they typically do in an expansion.)
    Yeah and Afriasabi also stated that Sylvanas actually was 100% behind Wrathgate. Must be all that drinking-at-work stuff and molesting co-workers clouding his memories.

    I don't really care what he says. He is not written differently at all. People constantly mention "Oh, he is sooo different in Stonetalon", when he is really not.

    Even the interview is like "Oh, it looks like he was going in a different direction!". Was he? In Stonetalon, his only characterization is "is against nuking civilian druids". Nothing he does in Cata or MoP goes against that lmao.

  9. #56409
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Yeah and Afriasabi also stated that Sylvanas actually was 100% behind Wrathgate. Must be all that drinking-at-work stuff and molesting co-workers clouding his memories.

    I don't really care what he says. He is not written differently at all. People constantly mention "Oh, he is sooo different in Stonetalon", when he is really not.

    Even the interview is like "Oh, it looks like he was going in a different direction!". Was he? In Stonetalon, his only characterization is "is against nuking civilian druids". Nothing he does in Cata or MoP goes against that lmao.
    It is a direct contradiction of his characterization in the MoP pre-patch where he is entirely okay with using a second mana-bomb on a similar town.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  10. #56410
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    It is a direct contradiction of his characterization in the MoP pre-patch where he is entirely okay with using a second mana-bomb on a similar town.
    Theramore is not just "a town", it's a military outpost right outside the Durotar. Nortwatch Hold who are affiliated with Theramore literally have plans to burn down Orgrimmar, Razor Hill and Sen'jin Village. Theramore forces actively attack the Horde.

    Theramore was a valid military target. Random Druids that have Night Elves as part of them are not a valid military target.

  11. #56411
    Warcraft story was a big mess since Vanilla, so belowed Wrath and Legion are just grand finale for two Warcraft III threats. Only really good storylines are side stuff: some from MoP/WoD, but especially Suramar, Zandalar, Jaina stuff from 8.0, Revendreth (Revendreth kinda copied lot of stuff from Suramar though).

    In Zandalar, if we ignore war stuff, Horde experience on BfA launch was amazing, really cohesive, interesting and down to earth (for fantasy) story and introduction to first raid. I really hope 10.0 will be exactly like that, solid story without "champion world is ending" bullshit.

  12. #56412
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    Warcraft story was a big mess since Vanilla, so belowed Wrath and Legion are just grand finale for two Warcraft III threats. Only really good storylines are side stuff: some from MoP/WoD, but especially Suramar, Zandalar, Jaina stuff from 8.0, Revendreth (Revendreth kinda copied lot of stuff from Suramar though).

    In Zandalar, if we ignore war stuff, Horde experience on BfA launch was amazing, really cohesive, interesting and down to earth (for fantasy) story and introduction to first raid. I really hope 10.0 will be exactly like that, solid story without "champion world is ending" bullshit.
    Zone specific storylines during levelling tends to be solid. Usually it's just when it's part of a bigger story that it starts failing.
    Drustvar for instance had a fantastic storyline, and the reason is likely because it didn't have to consider, or deal with the greater BfA faction war storyline. Rather it could focus solely on just the witch stuff.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  13. #56413
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Zone specific storylines during levelling tends to be solid. Usually it's just when it's part of a bigger story that it starts failing.
    Drustvar for instance had a fantastic storyline, and the reason is likely because it didn't have to consider, or deal with the greater BfA faction war storyline. Rather it could focus solely on just the witch stuff.
    I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that because I was told elsewhere it was a spicy take.

    The zone storylines tend to be good, hell even the concurrent/conclusion storyline (Zandalar Forever/Rescue Jaina) can be good.

    But whenever that stops and we go back to the "main" plot with the pre-existing characters starts back up, the quality swan dives into a shallow pond. It was like that for Shadowlands too, I thought the individual chapters of the levelling story were a neat introduction to the expansion, then I hit level 60 and we were back to Sylvanas and Bradd Pitt being sad and I got bored.

  14. #56414
    With the way the development works, I think they write the zone storylines first, and then force the main plot in there when they decide when that expansion is supposed to come out.

    The fact that BfA works just as well (if not better) with any of the Azeroth storyline removed (like it is now with BfA Chromie Time) is proof of that

    Didn't they once say that they weren't sure if they were gonna release BfA or Legion first?

  15. #56415
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    In some Sanctuaryesque place or a Haven
    Posts
    44,683
    Quote Originally Posted by Veluren View Post
    I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that because I was told elsewhere it was a spicy take.

    The zone storylines tend to be good, hell even the concurrent/conclusion storyline (Zandalar Forever/Rescue Jaina) can be good.

    But whenever that stops and we go back to the "main" plot with the pre-existing characters starts back up, the quality swan dives into a shallow pond. It was like that for Shadowlands too, I thought the individual chapters of the levelling story were a neat introduction to the expansion, then I hit level 60 and we were back to Sylvanas and Bradd Pitt being sad and I got bored.
    This is less bad writing and more focusing on only one character throughout the expansion which SL is(And its Anduin not Brad pitt -_-).
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance #TeamNoBlueHorde

    Warrior-Magi

  16. #56416
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    This is less bad writing and more focusing on only one character throughout the expansion which SL is(And its Anduin not Brad pitt -_-).
    He looks too much like him. Sad Pitt, then.
    Last edited by Veluren; 2022-05-15 at 02:00 PM.

  17. #56417
    Quote Originally Posted by Veluren View Post
    I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that because I was told elsewhere it was a spicy take.

    The zone storylines tend to be good, hell even the concurrent/conclusion storyline (Zandalar Forever/Rescue Jaina) can be good.

    But whenever that stops and we go back to the "main" plot with the pre-existing characters starts back up, the quality swan dives into a shallow pond. It was like that for Shadowlands too, I thought the individual chapters of the levelling story were a neat introduction to the expansion, then I hit level 60 and we were back to Sylvanas and Bradd Pitt being sad and I got bored.
    I'm also glad I'm not the only one feeling this way. A long time ago, I said I never quite found much to like about the core cast of characters in this game, but it's always the world content that's consistently kept me engaged despite that. I'm eagerly awaiting to see what they do on the Dragon Isles, but for once I'm actually intrigued what they'll also do for the main storyline too.

  18. #56418
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    In some Sanctuaryesque place or a Haven
    Posts
    44,683
    Personally Stormsong was the better zone compared to Drustvar. Tiragarde sound is only slightly better then Drustvar in terms of story(Cause pirates and me don't mesh well at all).
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance #TeamNoBlueHorde

    Warrior-Magi

  19. #56419
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Personally Stormsong was the better zone compared to Drustvar. Tiragarde sound is only slightly better then Drustvar in terms of story(Cause pirates and me don't mesh well at all).
    The main storyline in Stormsong was excellent but the sidestories less so. The Horde invasion one was solid if grim but the quillboar one and the landbound pirates? Yikes. The naga one also was shallow.

  20. #56420
    Scarab Lord
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    In the same urn as Vol'Jin
    Posts
    4,595
    Quote Originally Posted by Veluren View Post
    He looks too much like him. Sad Pitt, then.
    What's weird as hell is that his high-end cinematic model and his in-game cinematic and in-engine/in-game models look nothing alike. They're blonde and attractive but that's about it. "Sad Pitt" is about right for the cinematic one - he's a combination of Brad Pitt and Leonardo Di Caprio, a tiny-nose'd, slightly child-like-looking guy. Whereas in-engine/in-game, he's got a big solid nose like his dad and much less childlike face (he looks young, but definitely an adult), more like a combination of, I dunno Dan Stevens and Liam Neeson (but young).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I think it probably just shows how poor the oversight is when it comes to lore. Compare it to other fantasy fiction franchises and you can see it's problematic.
    I mean, I'd question what you're comparing WoW to here. It's going to be very difficult to find an apple to do an apples to apples comparison with. FFXIV does a lot better but took a fundamentally different, story-centric approach from the get go. But GW2? That's all over the place even when it's trying to be story-centric. GW2's storytelling in the original game and in the couple of years of the living story was truly awful. Like unbearably bad. People cringe violently at the name "Trahearne" to this day.

    And WoW's narrative cohesion is at its worst in Cataclysm. I mean, we can not like the storylines in more recent expansions, but Cataclysm was easily the least coherent, most confused, and most contradictory writing WoW has ever seen on multiple levels. Not just between character behaviour and motivations, but literally in terms of what was going on, and particularly in terms of tone, where you whiplash from stuff that's supposed to be moving to stuff that's supposed to be an absolutely idiotic joke told at insane length and back and forth, and where entire zone storylines can be elaborate dumb "jokes". I can only blame cocaine, mountains of cocaine. Nothing but coke would ever explain Uldum.

    Every expansion since they've done a better job in terms of a coherent narrative (though I wouldn't say they necessarily get better every expansion in that regard, just stay higher than Vanilla through Cata in terms of coherent narratives/characterisation).
    Last edited by Eurhetemec; 2022-05-15 at 08:47 PM.
    "A youtuber said so."

    "... some wow experts being interviewed..."

    "According to researchers from Wowhead..."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •