1. #57081
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugnomo View Post
    And if this is an actual concern and not just concern trolling, how is shitting on a gender neutral drake body and demanding strictly binary characteristics supposed to help? Instead of one forced binary option we'd get 2.
    I am not concern trolling. Just saying this is not good representation anyway for anyone who thinks it is representation in any form.
    And I have not personally demanded binary characteristics, I've reiterated that the one interview we have on Dracthyr customization suggests THREE options for the torso which would allow for variety. We will know how things go when it comes to dimorphism (trimorphism?) when we actually see the customization e.g. if the leanest form has any visible breast then we know they are being gendered.

    At the same time I don't think it's fair to accuse anyone who would like a gendered form of being transphobic. Obviously there are many who ARE transphobic, this is a gaming community after all and we know the issues there. But everyone has their own aesthetics, this will likely be the only way we get playable dragons and many people will just not identify with a non-gendered form. I hope we get three options and everyone is satisfied (except the assholes on both sides)

  2. #57082
    The Insane Arafal's Avatar
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    If they wanted non-binary representation we'd get more varied face options, hair styles, accessory and make up options for either model and various body shapes for each core race.
    Not a lizard whose visage forms are based on victoria's secret super models.

    This isn't representation.



  3. #57083
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    They do, it's just not as visible in some cases, in some cases it's not visible at all. Most animals that have male and female versions do have differences and they are recognizable if you're not a layman. As I said, it's the most basic concept of biology and has nothing to do with an "anti trans sentiment" or whatever.
    I love that you bolded it but barely read it. You know what the words "kind of" mean? Means that the kind of sexual dimorphism being talked about - big muscular builds for males, big hips and breasts for slender females - is not the kind of sexual dimorphism present in lizards.
    Obviously there's differences. But I haven't once read any detractors of the drakthyr model referencing any of those differences as something they want.
    Last edited by Hugnomo; 2022-05-25 at 10:11 AM.

  4. #57084
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I hope we get three options and everyone is satisfied
    Agreed, they can also make Drakonids an allied race as well, which would give a lot of people the "bulky dragonpeople with boobs" fantasy to play as.

  5. #57085
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I am not concern trolling. Just saying this is not good representation anyway for anyone who thinks it is representation in any form.
    And I have not personally demanded binary characteristics, I've reiterated that the one interview we have on Dracthyr customization suggests THREE options for the torso which would allow for variety. We will know how things go when it comes to dimorphism (trimorphism?) when we actually see the customization e.g. if the leanest form has any visible breast then we know they are being gendered.

    At the same time I don't think it's fair to accuse anyone who would like a gendered form of being transphobic. Obviously there are many who ARE transphobic, this is a gaming community after all and we know the issues there. But everyone has their own aesthetics, this will likely be the only way we get playable dragons and many people will just not identify with a non-gendered form. I hope we get three options and everyone is satisfied (except the assholes on both sides)
    This is the most important part. It's not representation when everybody looks the same.

    By the way, I'd be happy with more options for the jaw, that would already be enough for me. Give me a more Deathwing-like jaw and I'd be happy. Doesn't matter if "male" and "female" Dracthyr can use that, I just want it for my personal preference (because that butterface is hideous imho).
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  6. #57086
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I am not concern trolling. Just saying this is not good representation anyway for anyone who thinks it is representation in any form.
    And I have not personally demanded binary characteristics, I've reiterated that the one interview we have on Dracthyr customization suggests THREE options for the torso which would allow for variety. We will know how things go when it comes to dimorphism (trimorphism?) when we actually see the customization e.g. if the leanest form has any visible breast then we know they are being gendered.

    At the same time I don't think it's fair to accuse anyone who would like a gendered form of being transphobic. Obviously there are many who ARE transphobic, this is a gaming community after all and we know the issues there. But everyone has their own aesthetics, this will likely be the only way we get playable dragons and many people will just not identify with a non-gendered form. I hope we get three options and everyone is satisfied (except the assholes on both sides)
    Yeah, I said as much in a previous post. The more options the merrier, including more gendered forms. That's not what I alluded to as transphobic sentiments, at all.
    What I did allude to was the comments stating that human-like sexual dimorphism in creature races is "natural" and "biology". While deriding and shitting on gender neutral options as some political agenda.
    So it wouldn't be fair to accuse anyone who would like gendered forms of being transphobic (unless they're speaking in an exclusionary manner). And I didn't.

  7. #57087
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gifdwarf View Post
    Blizzard hasn't said anything about that, the race looks the way it does because it's trying to emulate Alexstrasza/regular dragons. Dracthyr are basically shrunken down dragons that stand upright. This is also why they have genders in visage form, like the aspects and other dragons have.
    I honestly cannot say I see that but I get it. I mean we've had draconic bipeds in RPGs for ages for that reason alone. Personally as a GM if my players wanted to play Dragons, I found a way to let them play actual dragons (I allowed a player to play a silver young dragon once, it was underpowered even with no level adjustment). But some find this half-measure acceptable so more power to them. Doesn't really scratch my itch to play a dragon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    If they wanted non-binary representation we'd get more varied face options, hair styles, accessory and make up options for either model and various body shapes for each core race.
    Not a lizard whose visage forms are based on victoria's secret super models.

    This isn't representation.
    Tbh we don't really know how much customization they do get. Ofc the visage forms are hypersexualized and unavoidable so it remains problematic.

  8. #57088
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    But some find this half-measure acceptable so more power to them. Doesn't really scratch my itch to play a dragon.
    Ultimately I think this is the right decision. Because I'd imagine more people want to play as a dragonperson race than a dragonsworn class that has a 5 minute cooldown to turn into Alexstrasza. I agree though, this isn't the 100% full fantasy of playing an actual dragon, but I think that just comes down to the limitation of the game, things like raids, etc.

  9. #57089
    Herald of the Titans Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    This is the most important part. It's not representation when everybody looks the same.

    By the way, I'd be happy with more options for the jaw, that would already be enough for me. Give me a more Deathwing-like jaw and I'd be happy. Doesn't matter if "male" and "female" Dracthyr can use that, I just want it for my personal preference (because that butterface is hideous imho).
    They already said we will get lots of different face shapes though.

  10. #57090
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    A bulky dragon race would be good. When I think of this new race, I envision Dragonborn in D&D. Besides This the WoW version just seems like it’s missing some animalistic edge.

  11. #57091
    It's kinda funny to see the blood elf male form being referred to as 'hypersexualized' (not the word you mean) when the joke for years were how feminine they were.

  12. #57092
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gifdwarf View Post
    Ultimately I think this is the right decision. Because I'd imagine more people want to play as a dragonperson race than a dragonsworn class that has a 5 minute cooldown to turn into Alexstrasza. I agree though, this isn't the 100% full fantasy of playing an actual dragon, but I think that just comes down to the limitation of the game, things like raids, etc.
    Again, drakes are not that large. You can give them no melee role to avoid them taking all the melee space or give them a tank role so they can still play in melee if they want but it will never be a concern for raids/dungeons. Let them play as casters in both drake and visage form. Yes, you'd never be able to play in a dragon form that is the size of a building. But drakes are smaller than most mounts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wowrefugee View Post
    It's kinda funny to see the blood elf male form being referred to as 'hypersexualized' (not the word you mean) when the joke for years were how feminine they were.
    Well I always found that joke to be inane. Blood elf males have a perfect V shape with extremely defined musculature.

  13. #57093
    Over 9000! Lahis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Well I always found that joke to be inane. Blood elf males have a perfect V shape with extremely defined musculature.
    Compared to human males they're basically twinks.

  14. #57094
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Compared to human males they're basically twinks.
    Maybe twunks.

  15. #57095
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post

    Well I always found that joke to be inane. Blood elf males have a perfect V shape with extremely defined musculature.
    Yeah, people calling BElves feminine has always been a confusing one for me.

    Sure they are in the context of WoW, where they hold to the Warhammer roots in most men being unrealistically muscled uberhulks. But IRL I still wouldn't want to pick a fight with someone built like a BElf.

    I'd guess you'd call it a remnant of the old Aughts era where having long hair and any care for your physical appearance that wasn't "manly" like beard obsession made you "girly" that people have mostly grown past.
    Last edited by Veluren; 2022-05-25 at 10:45 AM.

  16. #57096
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veluren View Post
    Yeah, people calling BElves feminine has always been a confusing one for me.

    Sure they are in the context of WoW, where they hold to the Warhammer roots in most men being unrealistically muscled uberhulks. But IRL I still wouldn't want to pick a fight with someone built like a BElf.
    It doesn't help that the dudebros at Blizzard were also pushing that idea with the flirts/jokes.

    Most martial artists in our world would have a built like a BElf.

  17. #57097
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Compared to human males they're basically twinks.
    Because Human males are bodybuilders while Kul Tirans are weightlifters.

  18. #57098
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    Idk about you, but when someone tells me that something is "unlike anything we have seen before" i very much take it as request to feel amazed.
    They should have advertised it as 'water that you can ONLY walk on' or 'water that you can't swim in'. Its actually something we never had before, but it just came across dumb because with the way how they said it, you can just go 'lol waterwalking/path of frost existed for 15 years'.

  19. #57099
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by micwini View Post
    They should have advertised it as 'water that you can ONLY walk on' or 'water that you can't swim in'. Its actually something we never had before, but it just came across dumb because with the way how they said it, you can just go 'lol waterwalking/path of frost existed for 15 years'.
    I mean it's dump in general, it's not like it is a major feature. The underwater areas are not even interactible outside fishing, one rare, one treasure and one world quest.

  20. #57100
    Herald of the Titans Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I mean it's dump in general, it's not like it is a major feature. The underwater areas are not even interactible outside fishing, one rare, one treasure and one world quest.
    I actually enjoyed the water, especially that fishing world quest. Was it the most exciting thing we ever got? No. But I get why they would be proud about it from a technical/artist PoV.

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