1. #57301
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Sure, because you guys seem to be offended by the idea alone that there is a race that's the same for male and females in their natural form. And instead of accepting progression you want to revert to your classic view of how males and females have to be.

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    Show me a WoW drake that has sexual dimorphism.
    My last sentence basically answers your question. Your statement regarding "girl and boy forms" was just - on the most basic level - scientifically false (not in terms of a fictional race or game though, but in general).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    We are talking about a fictional race whose parent race exhibits no sexual dimorphism. So there is an argument for their form not to be gendered. At the same time we are talking about a race whose alternate form is a very sexualized form so it makes sense for their draconic form to also be gendered. Both sides have arguments by lore tbh.
    Given we are getting three torso shapes, it is very much possible for everyone to get what they want (except ofc for the people whose main focus is for others to not get what they want but fuck those people).
    I said we're talking about a fictional race so it barely matters, which I mean so. The problem is the other part of the argument, e.g that this is "representation" when it's basically the exact opposite of representation. I really don't care much about "girl" or "boy" forms, but the underlying argument is... silly. And doesn't belong on this forum anyway, but here we are.
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  2. #57302
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    doesn't belong on this forum anyway, but here we are.
    Ever since 2021 this forum has sort of been broken by the drama coming off of Blizz, I wish we could go back before when these threads had basically none of that.

  3. #57303
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Sure, because you guys seem to be offended by the idea alone that there is a race that's the same for male and females in their natural form. And instead of accepting progression you want to revert to your classic view of how males and females have to be.

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    Show me a WoW drake that has sexual dimorphism.
    Yeah lmao. I'd love for them to look at most lizards in real life and distinguish how "males and females look unaltered or unchanged by the influence of society"
    I'm all for there having multiple options though. Slender for both genders, muscular for both, the more the merrier.
    But the mental gymnastics some go through to shove their anti trans sentiments in everything is hilarious. "Every animal/creature race should have drastic sexual dimorphism, big buff males, slender females with big breasts, that's what's natural". ??? Pandas, lizards, dogs/wolves, etc, don't have that kind of sexual dimorphism. If you want it that's fine but don't use the "natural" argument.

  4. #57304
    The Lightbringer Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugnomo View Post
    Yeah lmao. I'd love for them to look at most lizards in real life and distinguish how "males and females look unaltered or unchanged by the influence of society"
    I'm all for there having multiple options though. Slender for both genders, muscular for both, the more the merrier.
    But the mental gymnastics some go through to shove their anti trans sentiments in everything is hilarious. "Every animal/creature race should have drastic sexual dimorphism, big buff males, slender females with big breasts, that's what's natural". ??? Pandas, lizards, dogs/wolves, etc, don't have that kind of sexual dimorphism. If you want it that's fine but don't use the "natural" argument.
    I actually think the current implementation is more likely to cause dysphoria though. YOu can have a non-traditionally gendered body, as long as you stay in your reptile form. The moment you mount up, you are going to pop breasts and get child-bearing thighs though. Which is kind of the worst feeling transmasculine individuals (the community highest in suicides) have to face daily through their teenage years and adulthood. I don't know if this is meant to be representation but if it is, it's doing a crappy job at it

    If the intent was to show a non-gendered form, it should have followed in the visage forms.

  5. #57305
    The intent was to be able to play a dragon like Alexstrasza, but they were too big, so they made Dracthyr. It's not that complicated.



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  6. #57306
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I actually think the current implementation is more likely to cause dysphoria though. YOu can have a non-traditionally gendered body, as long as you stay in your reptile form. The moment you mount up, you are going to pop breasts and get child-bearing thighs though. Which is kind of the worst feeling transmasculine individuals (the community highest in suicides) have to face daily through their teenage years and adulthood. I don't know if this is meant to be representation but if it is, it's doing a crappy job at it

    If the intent was to show a non-gendered form, it should have followed in the visage forms.
    I don't think it's meant to be representation. The mere fact that they opted for a gender neutral body for drakes appears to have conjured this idea into people who are against it, as some reason to hate it. I don't think Blizzard ever saw it that way, but that's my guess.
    It's a race based on dragons/lizards, who have little to no sexual dimorphism in most representations, plus it's less work model wise to just create one, which they can then allocate into more customization or whatever else.
    And if this is an actual concern and not just concern trolling, how is shitting on a gender neutral drake body and demanding strictly binary characteristics supposed to help? Instead of one forced binary option we'd get 2.

  7. #57307
    The Lightbringer Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gifdwarf View Post
    The intent was to be able to play a dragon like Alexstrasza, but they were too big, so they made Dracthyr. It's not that complicated.
    I am talking about the suggestion that this was meant to be a playable non-gendered form.

  8. #57308
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I am talking about the suggestion that this was meant to be a playable non-gendered form.
    Blizzard hasn't said anything about that, the race looks the way it does because it's trying to emulate Alexstrasza/regular dragons. Dracthyr are basically shrunken down dragons that stand upright. This is also why they have genders in visage form, like the aspects and other dragons have.

  9. #57309
    Quote Originally Posted by Hugnomo View Post
    Yeah lmao. I'd love for them to look at most lizards in real life and distinguish how "males and females look unaltered or unchanged by the influence of society"
    I'm all for there having multiple options though. Slender for both genders, muscular for both, the more the merrier.
    But the mental gymnastics some go through to shove their anti trans sentiments in everything is hilarious. "Every animal/creature race should have drastic sexual dimorphism, big buff males, slender females with big breasts, that's what's natural". ??? Pandas, lizards, dogs/wolves, etc, don't have that kind of sexual dimorphism. If you want it that's fine but don't use the "natural" argument.
    They do, it's just not as visible in some cases, in some cases it's not visible at all. Most animals that have male and female versions do have differences and they are recognizable if you're not a layman. As I said, it's the most basic concept of biology and has nothing to do with an "anti trans sentiment" or whatever. But again, in case of the Dracthyr this barely matters because it's a fictional race. Although the concept falls flat when your "human" form is the most basic male or female yet again.
    Last edited by Nyel; 2022-05-25 at 10:01 AM.
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  10. #57310
    The Lightbringer Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugnomo View Post
    And if this is an actual concern and not just concern trolling, how is shitting on a gender neutral drake body and demanding strictly binary characteristics supposed to help? Instead of one forced binary option we'd get 2.
    I am not concern trolling. Just saying this is not good representation anyway for anyone who thinks it is representation in any form.
    And I have not personally demanded binary characteristics, I've reiterated that the one interview we have on Dracthyr customization suggests THREE options for the torso which would allow for variety. We will know how things go when it comes to dimorphism (trimorphism?) when we actually see the customization e.g. if the leanest form has any visible breast then we know they are being gendered.

    At the same time I don't think it's fair to accuse anyone who would like a gendered form of being transphobic. Obviously there are many who ARE transphobic, this is a gaming community after all and we know the issues there. But everyone has their own aesthetics, this will likely be the only way we get playable dragons and many people will just not identify with a non-gendered form. I hope we get three options and everyone is satisfied (except the assholes on both sides)

  11. #57311
    The Insane Arafal's Avatar
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    If they wanted non-binary representation we'd get more varied face options, hair styles, accessory and make up options for either model and various body shapes for each core race.
    Not a lizard whose visage forms are based on victoria's secret super models.

    This isn't representation.



  12. #57312
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    They do, it's just not as visible in some cases, in some cases it's not visible at all. Most animals that have male and female versions do have differences and they are recognizable if you're not a layman. As I said, it's the most basic concept of biology and has nothing to do with an "anti trans sentiment" or whatever.
    I love that you bolded it but barely read it. You know what the words "kind of" mean? Means that the kind of sexual dimorphism being talked about - big muscular builds for males, big hips and breasts for slender females - is not the kind of sexual dimorphism present in lizards.
    Obviously there's differences. But I haven't once read any detractors of the drakthyr model referencing any of those differences as something they want.
    Last edited by Hugnomo; 2022-05-25 at 10:11 AM.

  13. #57313
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I hope we get three options and everyone is satisfied
    Agreed, they can also make Drakonids an allied race as well, which would give a lot of people the "bulky dragonpeople with boobs" fantasy to play as.

  14. #57314
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I am not concern trolling. Just saying this is not good representation anyway for anyone who thinks it is representation in any form.
    And I have not personally demanded binary characteristics, I've reiterated that the one interview we have on Dracthyr customization suggests THREE options for the torso which would allow for variety. We will know how things go when it comes to dimorphism (trimorphism?) when we actually see the customization e.g. if the leanest form has any visible breast then we know they are being gendered.

    At the same time I don't think it's fair to accuse anyone who would like a gendered form of being transphobic. Obviously there are many who ARE transphobic, this is a gaming community after all and we know the issues there. But everyone has their own aesthetics, this will likely be the only way we get playable dragons and many people will just not identify with a non-gendered form. I hope we get three options and everyone is satisfied (except the assholes on both sides)
    This is the most important part. It's not representation when everybody looks the same.

    By the way, I'd be happy with more options for the jaw, that would already be enough for me. Give me a more Deathwing-like jaw and I'd be happy. Doesn't matter if "male" and "female" Dracthyr can use that, I just want it for my personal preference (because that butterface is hideous imho).
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  15. #57315
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I am not concern trolling. Just saying this is not good representation anyway for anyone who thinks it is representation in any form.
    And I have not personally demanded binary characteristics, I've reiterated that the one interview we have on Dracthyr customization suggests THREE options for the torso which would allow for variety. We will know how things go when it comes to dimorphism (trimorphism?) when we actually see the customization e.g. if the leanest form has any visible breast then we know they are being gendered.

    At the same time I don't think it's fair to accuse anyone who would like a gendered form of being transphobic. Obviously there are many who ARE transphobic, this is a gaming community after all and we know the issues there. But everyone has their own aesthetics, this will likely be the only way we get playable dragons and many people will just not identify with a non-gendered form. I hope we get three options and everyone is satisfied (except the assholes on both sides)
    Yeah, I said as much in a previous post. The more options the merrier, including more gendered forms. That's not what I alluded to as transphobic sentiments, at all.
    What I did allude to was the comments stating that human-like sexual dimorphism in creature races is "natural" and "biology". While deriding and shitting on gender neutral options as some political agenda.
    So it wouldn't be fair to accuse anyone who would like gendered forms of being transphobic (unless they're speaking in an exclusionary manner). And I didn't.

  16. #57316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gifdwarf View Post
    Blizzard hasn't said anything about that, the race looks the way it does because it's trying to emulate Alexstrasza/regular dragons. Dracthyr are basically shrunken down dragons that stand upright. This is also why they have genders in visage form, like the aspects and other dragons have.
    I honestly cannot say I see that but I get it. I mean we've had draconic bipeds in RPGs for ages for that reason alone. Personally as a GM if my players wanted to play Dragons, I found a way to let them play actual dragons (I allowed a player to play a silver young dragon once, it was underpowered even with no level adjustment). But some find this half-measure acceptable so more power to them. Doesn't really scratch my itch to play a dragon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    If they wanted non-binary representation we'd get more varied face options, hair styles, accessory and make up options for either model and various body shapes for each core race.
    Not a lizard whose visage forms are based on victoria's secret super models.

    This isn't representation.
    Tbh we don't really know how much customization they do get. Ofc the visage forms are hypersexualized and unavoidable so it remains problematic.

  17. #57317
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    But some find this half-measure acceptable so more power to them. Doesn't really scratch my itch to play a dragon.
    Ultimately I think this is the right decision. Because I'd imagine more people want to play as a dragonperson race than a dragonsworn class that has a 5 minute cooldown to turn into Alexstrasza. I agree though, this isn't the 100% full fantasy of playing an actual dragon, but I think that just comes down to the limitation of the game, things like raids, etc.

  18. #57318
    Herald of the Titans Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    This is the most important part. It's not representation when everybody looks the same.

    By the way, I'd be happy with more options for the jaw, that would already be enough for me. Give me a more Deathwing-like jaw and I'd be happy. Doesn't matter if "male" and "female" Dracthyr can use that, I just want it for my personal preference (because that butterface is hideous imho).
    They already said we will get lots of different face shapes though.

  19. #57319
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    A bulky dragon race would be good. When I think of this new race, I envision Dragonborn in D&D. Besides This the WoW version just seems like it’s missing some animalistic edge.

  20. #57320
    It's kinda funny to see the blood elf male form being referred to as 'hypersexualized' (not the word you mean) when the joke for years were how feminine they were.

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