Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Berkilak]

Lmao. I don't care about the Warcraft franchise just because I don't agree with you? We aren't losing anything from not having a full world revamp. The moment they do a revamp all of your problems start building again because they can't do one every expansion. Not to mention all of the things you list as problems didn't even get addressed with Cataclysm the last time they did a revamp and you want them to do even more while still providing enough content for end-game.

If anything, Cataclysm would make them more reluctant to ever do a revamp. It's reception (while I enjoyed it!) wasn't exactly stellar, and it turned the leveling experience into a continuity nightmare that will never be resolved. The fact that they let that nightmare exist, however, is telling in and of itself. They don't care about continuity as much as some of the players do. They only care about what is "on screen" right now. The only game is the endgame, as they say.

[Makabreska]

If anything, Cataclysm would make them more reluctant to ever do a revamp. It's reception (while I enjoyed it!) wasn't exactly stellar, and it turned the leveling experience into a continuity nightmare that will never be resolved. The fact that they let that nightmare exist, however, is telling in and of itself. They don't care about continuity as much as some of the players do. They only care about what is "on screen" right now. The only game is the endgame, as they say.

Eh, no. The reception was positive. They got rid of obnoxious, tedious quests and transformed a dead places like Azshara into a stellar levelling zones. The main issue with that was, according to them, that it took way too much dev time from the actual end game Cata content. And they may not care about continuity, simply because it was partially fixed with with scaled levelling and Chromie time.

[Berkilak]

Eh, no. The reception was positive. They got rid of obnoxious, tedious quests and transformed a dead places like Azshara into a stellar levelling zones. The main issue with that was, according to them, that it took way too much dev time from the actual end game Cata content. And they may not care about continuity, simply because it was partially fixed with with scaled levelling and Chromie time.

I liked the revamp, too. And the expansion as a whole, for that matter. But I won't confuse personal reception with overall community reception, which was and remains overwhelmingly negative.

[Makabreska]

I liked the revamp, too. And the expansion as a whole, for that matter. But I won't confuse personal reception with overall community reception, which was and remains overwhelmingly negative.

Ye, no. It was not and it is not "overwhelmingly negative". You listen to these people, who can only bring up "lol Rambo in Redrige" argument?

[Onslaught49]

hey guys we have any idea on when the next talent trees are expected? loved the frost dk and cant wait to see what they do with arms+fury havoc and ret next

[Sondrelk]

From what I have seen players were mostly annoyed with the world revamp in Cata because it didnt end up being used or anything. Levelling being updated was nice and all, but without a strong set of endgame activites in those revamped zones it was just window dressing for most players.
A new world revamp could fix this by simply using the zones they revamped at max level.

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hey guys we have any idea on when the next talent trees are expected? loved the frost dk and cant wait to see what they do with arms+fury havoc and ret next

I am going to guess it will be 1-2 each week, or each other week if we are unlucky, after that it's pretty much just luck of the draw.

[Berkilak]

Ye, no. It was not and it is not "overwhelmingly negative". You listen to these people, who can only bring up "lol Rambo in Redrige" argument?

No, I judge by a couple of parameters, both anecdotal and empirical. The first time in the game's history, subscription numbers went down. And I felt that - I wasn't able to recruit quickly enough to fill in people quitting the game. Not the guild, but the game itself. There's tacit admissions from developers that they "missed the mark" with a variety of content, as you yourself allude to. And it was very obvious that the narrative team was feeling a little directionless, in addition to a flaccid implementation of Deathwing. Add in some high profile departures... the writing was on the wall, both internally and externally.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

No, I judge by a couple of parameters, both anecdotal and empirical. The first time in the game's history, subscription numbers went down. And I felt that - I wasn't able to recruit quickly enough to fill in people quitting the game. Not the guild, but the game itself. There's tacit admissions from developers that they "missed the mark" with a variety of content, as you yourself allude to. And it was very obvious that the narrative team was feeling a little directionless, in addition to a flaccid implementation of Deathwing. Add in some high profile departures... the writing was on the wall, both internally and externally.

Due to the "Heroics are Hard" nonsense where the spike in difficulty heroics had in the past. Also we can't put the blame on one issue for massive amount of subs.

[Khaza-R]

No, I judge by a couple of parameters, both anecdotal and empirical. The first time in the game's history, subscription numbers went down. And I felt that - I wasn't able to recruit quickly enough to fill in people quitting the game. Not the guild, but the game itself. There's tacit admissions from developers that they "missed the mark" with a variety of content, as you yourself allude to. And it was very obvious that the narrative team was feeling a little directionless, in addition to a flaccid implementation of Deathwing. Add in some high profile departures... the writing was on the wall, both internally and externally.

Of all the issues plaguing Cataclysm, the revamp was by far the least offensive of all its problems. Even I can acknowledge that and I personally despise what the revamp did to several zones like Ashevenvale, Barrens, 1k Needles, etc. The revamp singled-handedly generated more hype than anything I've ever seen while following WoW.

Cataclysm really suffered from doing a full 180 on difficulty that people saw in the end of WotLK. At least until the end of the expansion, then they just nerfed everything into oblivion and added LFR to the scene. Dragon Soul didn't help either as just felt lazy and lasted far too long. Basically its an expansion that managed to piss off everyone by the end and that's really the primary reason why gets hate.

[Makabreska]

No, I judge by a couple of parameters, both anecdotal and empirical. The first time in the game's history, subscription numbers went down. And I felt that - I wasn't able to recruit quickly enough to fill in people quitting the game. Not the guild, but the game itself. There's tacit admissions from developers that they "missed the mark" with a variety of content, as you yourself allude to. And it was very obvious that the narrative team was feeling a little directionless, in addition to a flaccid implementation of Deathwing. Add in some high profile departures... the writing was on the wall, both internally and externally.

Or maybe people left because of heroic dungeons experiment (and making casters mana mater) and many treating Arthas as a final boss of the series? You don't have any solid proof to say departure was mainly caused by revamp. Vanilla zones were a mess pre-Cata. Disjointed quests, wild difficulty, entire desolate areas. Revamp hugely improved all of that, any with it, levelling experience.

[Berkilak]

Or maybe people left because of heroic dungeons experiment (and making casters mana mater) and many treating Arthas as a final boss of the genre? You don't have solid proof to say departure is mainly caused by revamp. Vanilla zones were a mess pre-Cata. Disjointed quests, wild difficulty, desolate zones. Revamp hugely improved all of that, any with it, levelling experience.

I agree. I also think that the vast majority of the dropoff in player population was simple fatigue from the people most interested in the franchise - we learned what the "natural" lifespan of an MMO was in that moment. It would be unreasonable to expect perpetual growth and a lifespan of over two decades.

It was still poorly received.

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Of all the issues plaguing Cataclysm, the revamp was by far the least offensive of all its problems. Even I can acknowledge that and I personally despise what the revamp did to several zones like Ashevenvale, Barrens, 1k Needles, etc. The revamp singled-handedly generated more hype than anything I've ever seen while following WoW.

Cataclysm really suffered from doing a full 180 on difficulty that people saw in the end of WotLK. At least until the end of the expansion, then they just nerfed everything into oblivion and added LFR to the scene. Dragon Soul didn't help either as just felt lazy and lasted far too long. Basically its an expansion that managed to piss off everyone by the end and that's really the primary reason why gets hate.

I don't disagree at all.

It was still poorly received.

It's like player housing, WoD, and garrisons. Blizzard makes a habit of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. They don't do nuance. WoD bad therefore housing bad. Cata bad therefore revamp bad.

[Makabreska]

It was still poorly received.

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I don't disagree at all.

It was still poorly received.

Seems like no convincing you.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

https://twitter.com/MrGMYT/status/1533868676495069187

New PTR Build.

[bruxx]

https://twitter.com/MrGMYT/status/1533868676495069187

New PTR Build.

Interesting. Wonder if it's related to season 4

[rhorle]

I agree. I also think that the vast majority of the dropoff in player population was simple fatigue from the people most interested in the franchise - we learned what the "natural" lifespan of an MMO was in that moment. It would be unreasonable to expect perpetual growth and a lifespan of over two decades.

That seems more filling in the blanks then reality though. Everquest came out in 1999 and is still around and made $30 million in 2020.WoW is still alive and thriving even if subscriptions keep going down. It still makes a lot of money. Options for gaming, original population aging, and the "Great Recession" (2008) likely played a far greater role then any single game design aspect.

There is no natural lifespan for video games. It can be weeks it can be decades. It just depends on support and players willing to play. As popular as Warcraft was it never attained the self perpetuating fame of Pokemon for example.

[Berkilak]

That seems more filling in the blanks then reality though. Everquest came out in 1999 and is still around and made $30 million in 2020.WoW is still alive and thriving even if subscriptions keep going down. It still makes a lot of money. Options for gaming, original population aging, and the "Great Recession" (2008) likely played a far greater role then any single game design aspect.

There is no natural lifespan for video games. It can be weeks it can be decades. It just depends on support and players willing to play. As popular as Warcraft was it never attained the self perpetuating fame of Pokemon for example.

Your first paragraph doesn't contradict what I said. And I agree completely, up to your second paragraph that partly contradicts the first. Perhaps I should have said "natural lifecycle" instead of lifespan. WoW did not die after WotLK, or Cata, or WoD, or whatever else. It'll go until people stop throwing money at it. But until that point, we never really saw an entry into the genre that tapped into the popular zeitgeist. We had no idea how large it would get, nor how long it would last. WotLK was the peak of this aberrant entry, but like you say, I do not believe that this was due to a lack of quality on Cataclysm's part. There were several factors, as we both alluded to.

But Cataclysm was nevertheless still poorly received.

[rhorle]

Your first paragraph doesn't contradict what I said. And I agree completely, up to your second paragraph that partly contradicts the first. Perhaps I should have said "natural lifecycle" instead of lifespan. WoW did not die after WotLK, or Cata, or WoD, or whatever else. It'll go until people stop throwing money at it. But until that point, we never really saw an entry into the genre that tapped into the popular zeitgeist. We had no idea how large it would get, nor how long it would last. WotLK was the peak of this aberrant entry, but like you say, I do not believe that this was due to a lack of quality on Cataclysm's part. There were several factors, as we both alluded to.

Nothing about my post is contradictory. Lifespan, lifecycle, or any other term you want to use simply do not apply when using the word natural. Everything is artificial about those concept and exists as long as developers are willing to support the product and players are willing to play. It is also silly to say that no game in the past tapped into "zeitgeist" when WoW built on the popularity of Everquest and surpassed it.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Btw, after recent events, where this guy is?

Whispering sweet nothings words of conflict and strife into Turalyon's ear.

[Sondrelk]

Whispering sweet nothings words of conflict and strife into Turalyon's ear.

I wonder if they are going to address the whole deal with having learned that Dreadlords are not originally affiliated with the Burning Legion at all. Probably not given only the player characters really know that piece of information as of this moment.

[Berkilak]

Nothing about my post is contradictory. Lifespan, lifecycle, or any other term you want to use simply do not apply when using the word natural. Everything is artificial about those concept and exists as long as developers are willing to support the product and players are willing to play. It is also silly to say that no game in the past tapped into "zeitgeist" when WoW built on the popularity of Everquest and surpassed it.

Mr. T didn't say a damn thing about EQ. WoW was an MMO in the EQ vein, sure, but its popularity transcended the genre - and maybe even the medium itself - entirely.