1. #57921
    Dreadlord Berkilak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Or maybe people left because of heroic dungeons experiment (and making casters mana mater) and many treating Arthas as a final boss of the genre? You don't have solid proof to say departure is mainly caused by revamp. Vanilla zones were a mess pre-Cata. Disjointed quests, wild difficulty, desolate zones. Revamp hugely improved all of that, any with it, levelling experience.
    I agree. I also think that the vast majority of the dropoff in player population was simple fatigue from the people most interested in the franchise - we learned what the "natural" lifespan of an MMO was in that moment. It would be unreasonable to expect perpetual growth and a lifespan of over two decades.

    It was still poorly received.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    Of all the issues plaguing Cataclysm, the revamp was by far the least offensive of all its problems. Even I can acknowledge that and I personally despise what the revamp did to several zones like Ashevenvale, Barrens, 1k Needles, etc. The revamp singled-handedly generated more hype than anything I've ever seen while following WoW.

    Cataclysm really suffered from doing a full 180 on difficulty that people saw in the end of WotLK. At least until the end of the expansion, then they just nerfed everything into oblivion and added LFR to the scene. Dragon Soul didn't help either as just felt lazy and lasted far too long. Basically its an expansion that managed to piss off everyone by the end and that's really the primary reason why gets hate.
    I don't disagree at all.

    It was still poorly received.

    It's like player housing, WoD, and garrisons. Blizzard makes a habit of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. They don't do nuance. WoD bad therefore housing bad. Cata bad therefore revamp bad.

  2. #57922
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkilak View Post
    It was still poorly received.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I don't disagree at all.

    It was still poorly received.
    Seems like no convincing you.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  3. #57923
    Bloodsail Admiral Foreign Exchange Ztudent's Avatar
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    I no longer reply to quotations beyond if you're asking a genuine question or have a non-confrontational stance.

    Nihil.


  4. #57924
    Quote Originally Posted by Foreign Exchange Ztudent View Post
    Interesting. Wonder if it's related to season 4

  5. #57925
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkilak View Post
    I agree. I also think that the vast majority of the dropoff in player population was simple fatigue from the people most interested in the franchise - we learned what the "natural" lifespan of an MMO was in that moment. It would be unreasonable to expect perpetual growth and a lifespan of over two decades.
    That seems more filling in the blanks then reality though. Everquest came out in 1999 and is still around and made $30 million in 2020.WoW is still alive and thriving even if subscriptions keep going down. It still makes a lot of money. Options for gaming, original population aging, and the "Great Recession" (2008) likely played a far greater role then any single game design aspect.

    There is no natural lifespan for video games. It can be weeks it can be decades. It just depends on support and players willing to play. As popular as Warcraft was it never attained the self perpetuating fame of Pokemon for example.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  6. #57926
    Dreadlord Berkilak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    That seems more filling in the blanks then reality though. Everquest came out in 1999 and is still around and made $30 million in 2020.WoW is still alive and thriving even if subscriptions keep going down. It still makes a lot of money. Options for gaming, original population aging, and the "Great Recession" (2008) likely played a far greater role then any single game design aspect.

    There is no natural lifespan for video games. It can be weeks it can be decades. It just depends on support and players willing to play. As popular as Warcraft was it never attained the self perpetuating fame of Pokemon for example.
    Your first paragraph doesn't contradict what I said. And I agree completely, up to your second paragraph that partly contradicts the first. Perhaps I should have said "natural lifecycle" instead of lifespan. WoW did not die after WotLK, or Cata, or WoD, or whatever else. It'll go until people stop throwing money at it. But until that point, we never really saw an entry into the genre that tapped into the popular zeitgeist. We had no idea how large it would get, nor how long it would last. WotLK was the peak of this aberrant entry, but like you say, I do not believe that this was due to a lack of quality on Cataclysm's part. There were several factors, as we both alluded to.

    But Cataclysm was nevertheless still poorly received.

  7. #57927
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkilak View Post
    Your first paragraph doesn't contradict what I said. And I agree completely, up to your second paragraph that partly contradicts the first. Perhaps I should have said "natural lifecycle" instead of lifespan. WoW did not die after WotLK, or Cata, or WoD, or whatever else. It'll go until people stop throwing money at it. But until that point, we never really saw an entry into the genre that tapped into the popular zeitgeist. We had no idea how large it would get, nor how long it would last. WotLK was the peak of this aberrant entry, but like you say, I do not believe that this was due to a lack of quality on Cataclysm's part. There were several factors, as we both alluded to.
    Nothing about my post is contradictory. Lifespan, lifecycle, or any other term you want to use simply do not apply when using the word natural. Everything is artificial about those concept and exists as long as developers are willing to support the product and players are willing to play. It is also silly to say that no game in the past tapped into "zeitgeist" when WoW built on the popularity of Everquest and surpassed it.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  8. #57928
    I am Murloc! KOUNTERPARTS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luck4 View Post
    Btw, after recent events, where this guy is?

    Whispering sweet nothings words of conflict and strife into Turalyon's ear.

  9. #57929
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    Whispering sweet nothings words of conflict and strife into Turalyon's ear.
    I wonder if they are going to address the whole deal with having learned that Dreadlords are not originally affiliated with the Burning Legion at all. Probably not given only the player characters really know that piece of information as of this moment.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  10. #57930
    Dreadlord Berkilak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Nothing about my post is contradictory. Lifespan, lifecycle, or any other term you want to use simply do not apply when using the word natural. Everything is artificial about those concept and exists as long as developers are willing to support the product and players are willing to play. It is also silly to say that no game in the past tapped into "zeitgeist" when WoW built on the popularity of Everquest and surpassed it.
    Mr. T didn't say a damn thing about EQ. WoW was an MMO in the EQ vein, sure, but its popularity transcended the genre - and maybe even the medium itself - entirely.

  11. #57931
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foreign Exchange Ztudent View Post
    Mhm - "Seems to be a lot of skin files… interesting" probably Dracthyr customizations for the pre-orders?

    #TEAMGIRAFFE

  12. #57932
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Mhm - "Seems to be a lot of skin files… interesting" probably Dracthyr customizations for the pre-orders?
    Retail got the patch as well right now and is on the same version as the ptr

  13. #57933
    Quote Originally Posted by unbrained View Post
    retail got the patch as well right now and is on the same version as the ptr
    pre order hyyyyppppuuuuuuu!!!!

  14. #57934
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiriastrasza View Post
    pre order hyyyyppppuuuuuuu!!!!
    Please misses, can I see your ticket to the hype train?

    #TEAMGIRAFFE

  15. #57935
    Pre orders tomorrow prolly.

  16. #57936
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Please misses, can I see your ticket to the hype train?

  17. #57937
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkilak View Post
    Mr. T didn't say a damn thing about EQ. WoW was an MMO in the EQ vein, sure, but its popularity transcended the genre - and maybe even the medium itself - entirely.
    Blizzard didn't start riding the wave at the bottom. They were at the top when it crested as nothing else really came at the time. It was in the right place and the right time to become part of pop culture of the time but it is silly to ignore what enabled WoW to get there. Remember Blizzard rarely creates brand new things. They just innovate and refine.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  18. #57938
    The Lightbringer Valysar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Mhm - "Seems to be a lot of skin files… interesting" probably Dracthyr customizations for the pre-orders?
    They will be in 10.0 prepatch, why add them now ?

  19. #57939
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Mhm - "Seems to be a lot of skin files… interesting" probably Dracthyr customizations for the pre-orders?
    Pretty sure they already confirmed that Dracthyr will be available in the pre-patch (for those that pre-ordered) and not with the pre-order when it first goes live.

    https://www.wowhead.com/news/dragonf...-mythic-326780
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  20. #57940
    I am Murloc! KOUNTERPARTS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I wonder if they are going to address the whole deal with having learned that Dreadlords are not originally affiliated with the Burning Legion at all. Probably not given only the player characters really know that piece of information as of this moment.

    I would have to imagine that eventually the truth will come out.


    Having a nathrezim as a high ranking official in a trans-planetary cosmic military force is one thing, but that same nathrezim having the ear of the man who is in charge of the (currently) most powerful faction on Azeroth and a story not be told about the revelations in the Shadowlands is silly.


    I honestly think what is going to happen is: the Alliance, through Turaylon, are going to instigate something big. It won't be until later Turalyon finds out he was manipulated.

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