1. #58081
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiriastrasza View Post
    The outcry is from a minority, with luck the race won't change.
    I'm going to worry about them getting female worgen'd until they're actually playable.

  2. #58082
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiivar86 View Post
    I seem to recall counterspell being a talent for mages, way back when.

    So maybe that's why it doesn't really bother me.
    counterspell has always been baseline, though Improved Counterspell (4 Second Silence) did exist as a talent.

  3. #58083
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    That's always gonna be true for anything, its part of the nature of a tiered tree that requires investment in previous tiers. A balance druid doesn't need increased healing or better range on other forms for most fights, but they still want sunfire.

    Going into rune regeneration is 6 of your 31 class talent points. Is one of them being an interrupt not used on some bosses really a big deal?
    Except Balance has two paths get to Sunfire and both have at least some benefit against bosses compared to DKs. So yes, spending 6 of your class talent points just to get any form of resource regen is bad design.

    It doesn't need to be perfect but there shouldn't be 1 path only to get rune regeneration, especially since it's an actually required talent. It doesn't need every path to link to it but there's no reason it should require 6 points for Blood & Unholy to get a required talent and have to waste always 3 points to get there.

  4. #58084
    The Lightbringer Nymrohd's Avatar
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    So after looking at the talents. . .
    Thought there should only be a little throughput in the class tree. Instead half of your spec is there. Shows how weak class fantasy over spec fantasy is at this point that the tree is effectively three mini spec trees where you'll want to almost completely fill your spec first and then pretty much have to pick whatever throughput is on other specs.
    And then the spec specific tree has quite a lot of utility you'll almost never pick in a raid unless your raid leader specifically asks you to pick it for an encounter. And I hope people pick up their utility for M+ . . .

    Still plenty of good ideas there. Definitely need a calculator for a more informed opinion.

    Let's hope they listen to feedback.

  5. #58085
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    I think it is clear you are likely hardcore but have moved the line for what constitutes hardcore for whatever reason. That isn't a casual mindset in the slightest. It isn't great that a build can be bad. It doesn't mean there is any more choice then if all builds are good. It just means that players can punish themselves through ignorance or choice by picking a bad option. That is far from great. Great would be that there are no bad choices.
    I only do lfrand the occasional normal mode raid and low level m+ dungeons. I play a lot of world content. About 15 hours a week. I don't think that's hardcore.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    I think it is clear you are likely hardcore but have moved the line for what constitutes hardcore for whatever reason. That isn't a casual mindset in the slightest. It isn't great that a build can be bad. It doesn't mean there is any more choice then if all builds are good. It just means that players can punish themselves through ignorance or choice by picking a bad option. That is far from great. Great would be that there are no bad choices.
    How is it any different to classic WoW? You will likely be able to load loadoats via string with an addon on day 1 of the expansion with the best all around talent build. For players that don't want to engage with the system it will be incredibly trivial to set up the tree.

    For players like myself who like to tinker with different builds and specs it will be great. I cant wait to be a holy dps paladin for world content. Theres tons of fun to be had with the system for players like myself. Sure ill have the cookie cutter specs like everyone else for important content, but it will be fun to have goody bad specs too.

    Also this massively improves the leveling experience too. Getting an ability, or talent every single level is big.

  6. #58086
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    How is it any different to classic WoW?
    It isn't that different and that was one of the problems with the classic way. Bad choices and cookie cutter builds. One of the reasons why Blizzard abandoned that style of talents in the first place. It is all just an illusion of choice and having bad options ensures they don't get picked except for the meme or troll builds.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  7. #58087
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It isn't that different and that was one of the problems with the classic way. Bad choices and cookie cutter builds. One of the reasons why Blizzard abandoned that style of talents in the first place. It is all just an illusion of choice and having bad options ensures they don't get picked except for the meme or troll builds.
    And is that any different from retail? With retail there's cookie cutter builds for every spec anyways. At the very least, a talent tree adds more options for hybridity between specs.

  8. #58088
    Quote Originally Posted by Mutineer View Post
    I'm going to worry about them getting female worgen'd until they're actually playable.
    This is why I'm against the minority getting the revamp they think they deserve.

  9. #58089
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ticj View Post
    And is that any different from retail? With retail there's cookie cutter builds for every spec anyways. At the very least, a talent tree adds more options for hybridity between specs.
    Yeah idk. I think its plainly obvious that the DF talent trees are better than MoP or Vanilla ones. You have a class tree and a spec tree. Having a class tree allows for a lot of niche specs. A spec could be created for one purpose. 1 single raid boss or dungeon. You could have a different spec for different end game zones.

    Maybe you have an aoe speedy spec for launch zones, and one with stuns, interrupts, single target damage for zones that are more difficult. Think The top part of Timeless Isle. Even a geared character could be nearly one shot if not doing the mechanics properly.

    If people don't want to deal with the system its fine, but it doesn't hurt anyone that the new system exists. I can maybe see an argument for making super important things like interrupts baseline, but in general the system could and I think will be much better.

  10. #58090
    Anduin's narration is like a joke, being used as a foil for Sylvanas and thrown away like a used condom.

    Metzen and c.o = let's make a charismatic and brutal picture

    Danuser = let's make all the characters sad
    Last edited by Cherry123; 2022-06-04 at 08:43 AM.

  11. #58091
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    But the big critique point for allied races was that most of them just felt like they should have been customization options in the first place, hence Blizzard giving us potential allied races as customizations instead for Shadowlands (Wildhammer Dwarves, Sand Trolls, High Elves and Darkfallen). You don't need racials, a specific starting zone or an ingame tooltip calling you XY to be a race if you have the right customization options now. Again, "rules are just a framework". I'm quite sure that blizzard would release highmountain tauren or lightforged just as customization options if they would do them now. Which is fine, and again exactly what people wanted since BfA.
    Look, you respond on what you want. But I find your critique just off and I was pretty clear and this was not what what we were talking about. Not sure why are you telling me this, as I already responded to you directly wich you ignored.

    Again, I already explained this to you and sand trolls and high elves are exactly what this was about. They allow you to rp without directly saying that you are a sand troll, this is for your own interpetation. Meaning you can rp as one from zul farrak or you can say no hes from uldum. Thats the point, but none of what you make of it is perse canon. Which is fine, but you can't say they dont need racials of other theme options as some fact as I would have loved some ingame mention that sand trolltribe actually joined the trolls. Its just your opinion.
    Last edited by Alanar; 2022-06-04 at 09:17 AM.

  12. #58092
    Pit Lord Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    Look, you respond on what you want. But I find your critique just off and I was pretty clear and this was not what what we were talking about. Not sure why are you telling me this, as I already responded to you directly wich you ignored.

    Again, I already explained this to you and sand trolls and high elves are exactly what this was about. They allow you to rp without directly saying that you are a sand troll, this is for your own interpetation. Meaning you can rp as one from zul farrak or you can say no hes from uldum. Thats the point, but none of what you make of it is perse canon. Which is fine, but you can't say they dont need racials of other theme options as some fact as I would have loved some ingame mention that sand trolltribe actually joined the trolls. Its just your opinion.
    No, Danuser actually said that all new customization options are "lore approved" before Shadowlands came out. I can't really comprehend how you think they are not canon lol.

  13. #58093
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    No, Danuser actually said that all new customization options are "lore approved" before Shadowlands came out. I can't really comprehend how you think they are not canon lol.
    I dont think you get it what I said at all, you make that pretty clear on what you choose to respond to.

  14. #58094
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherry123 View Post
    Anduin's narration is like a joke, being used as a foil for Sylvanas and thrown away like a used condom.

    Metzen and c.o = let's make a charismatic and brutal picture

    Danuser = let's make all the characters sad
    I wouldn't go as far as naming it a joke but your comment is funny as hell xD "Danuser = let's make all the characters sad " should become my new sig. <3
    Zorn | Vynd | Pheraz | Silwyna | Mondlicht | Eis | Blut | Emerelle - My personal Kaldorei army <3 Plus lots of voidy high elves <3

  15. #58095
    Pit Lord Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherry123 View Post
    Anduin's narration is like a joke, being used as a foil for Sylvanas and thrown away like a used condom.

    Metzen and c.o = let's make a charismatic and brutal picture

    Danuser = let's make all the characters sad
    What? Anduin's narrative 'till Shadowlands was boring as hell. He finally got some character this expansion.

  16. #58096
    The Lightbringer Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It isn't that different and that was one of the problems with the classic way. Bad choices and cookie cutter builds. One of the reasons why Blizzard abandoned that style of talents in the first place. It is all just an illusion of choice and having bad options ensures they don't get picked except for the meme or troll builds.
    Yeah I was hoping this was meant to be Classic talent trees with lessons learned since. This is . . . classic talent trees with no lessons learned.

  17. #58097
    Quote Originally Posted by Ticj View Post
    And is that any different from retail? With retail there's cookie cutter builds for every spec anyways. At the very least, a talent tree adds more options for hybridity between specs.
    Blizzard outright said that anything that provides options will have cookie cutter builds anyway, so they're not even bothering to prevent that anymore.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Yeah I was hoping this was meant to be Classic talent trees with lessons learned since. This is . . . classic talent trees with no lessons learned.
    They did learn lessons from it. For example "cookie cutter is unavoidable".



    On an unrelated note, i just realised Guardian has a talent line that is basically "make me Lazerbear!"
    On that same note, while DK is rather pedestrian, they apparently dumped every silly proc from the last three expansions into the Druid trees. Including anima powers, artifact powers, legendaries, you name it, it's in there somewhere.
    Last edited by huth; 2022-06-04 at 11:18 AM.

  18. #58098
    So I don't think you can go "up" in the talent trees, but can you choose diagonally? Because if not, it seems to defeat the whole purpose of them.

    "edit" oh nevermind, I thought you could only go down from your spec talent in the class tree.

  19. #58099
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    What? Anduin's narrative 'till Shadowlands was boring as hell. He finally got some character this expansion.
    No, it wasn't boring just not used often and well Sylvanas was the focus. this new development is just headscratcher but its only part of the picture so who knows.
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  20. #58100
    Quote Originally Posted by infinitemeridian View Post
    So I don't think you can go "up" in the talent trees, but can you choose diagonally? Because if not, it seems to defeat the whole purpose of them.

    "edit" oh nevermind, I thought you could only go down from your spec talent in the class tree.
    Yeah, Tier 1 is free picking. You could just go down the "wrong" tree from Level 10 on if you wanted to.

    In fact, you actually have to invest a few points into a different spec to meet the 8 point requirement.
    Last edited by huth; 2022-06-04 at 02:36 PM.

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