1. #58221
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    And as mentioned, Dragonflight has zero (!) progression on max level. There’s just nothing but gear treadmill.
    Wait a moment. Having to grind other types of content than you prefer and lower difficulties that you are geared for was main BfA complain. In SL they removed grind, kept systems. Then complexity of systems were main SL complain. In DF they do EXACTLY what people wanted - to keep progression simple, just level, then pick right talents for situation in single window and gear up (from multiple sources and with tier gear of course).

    Doesn't mean DF has zero progression outside. We know about professions with talent trees, dragon riding and switching zone reputations to renown like system with cosmetic and gear rewards.

  2. #58222
    I'm gonna be honest, I take Dragonflight as a chance to see if Blizzard can slow down and actually do 3 major patches again while also seeing if they try a better approach to handling the community.

    But yeah, I mean I think people still forget theres' a World Content Team and again here's the direct quote about that team:
    Quote Originally Posted by Gamerant Interview "What World of Warcraft Learned from Shadowlands to Create Dragonflight" with Jeremy Feasel and Graham Berger
    World of Warcraft is also taking the overhauls to the sandbox experience from Legion and enhancing them in further Dragonflight. According to Feasel, World of Warcraft has staffed a content team whose focus is on the overworld experience. These individuals are focusing on creating fun activities to explore and discover.

    Engaging rare spawns, jumping puzzles, rock climbing, and Dragonriding points of interest were some examples given, but Feasel also teased the addition of Dragon Racing. Though in the early stages of development, World of Warcraft hopes to make competitive Dragon Racing tournaments using the new Dragonriding system, taking inspiration from the Fishing Tournaments already in game.
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  3. #58223
    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    I think people are off base expecting weekly updates with the talent trees. They pretty much said these trees are very much just prototypes. I don't see them going full throttle developing trees for every class when they don't even know if this is the format they want to use yet.
    Maybe, but I expected something at least, and we didn't get much of anything, right? (This has been a busy week at work so I don't recall at least)

  4. #58224
    Quote Originally Posted by Foreign Exchange Ztudent View Post
    I'm gonna be honest, I take Dragonflight as a chance to see if Blizzard can slow down and actually do 3 major patches again while also seeing if they try a better approach to handling the community.

    But yeah, I mean I think people still forget theres' a World Content Team and again here's the direct quote about that team:
    I don't think DF will have some revolution with world content. If you watch closely, with every expansion there is more and more casual stuff to do in open world. In Legion only Argus was filled with cosmetics, mostly mounts. In BfA Warfronts (zones), 8.2 and 8.3.

    In SL first time every single zone has ton of stuff like this, often it's not just rare drop but some puzzle or treasure hunt. Also every covenant have some casual special piece of content.

    In DF good step would be expanding casual content, give every zone at least 1-2 activities similar to Venthyr party or Kyrian arena. Also, while they sort out UI, it would be great to implement addon like HandyNotes/Rarescanner into base game. Lot of people don't even notice many casual content.

  5. #58225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    I don't think DF will have some revolution with world content. If you watch closely, with every expansion there is more and more casual stuff to do in open world. In Legion only Argus was filled with cosmetics, mostly mounts. In BfA Warfronts (zones), 8.2 and 8.3.

    In SL first time every single zone has ton of stuff like this, often it's not just rare drop but some puzzle or treasure hunt. Also every covenant have some casual special piece of content.

    In DF good step would be expanding casual content, give every zone at least 1-2 activities similar to Venthyr party or Kyrian arena. Also, while they sort out UI, it would be great to implement addon like HandyNotes/Rarescanner into base game. Lot of people don't even notice many casual content.
    World content does need more stuff to do but don't ask me how I'd do it cause I don't know.
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  6. #58226
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    Wait a moment. Having to grind other types of content than you prefer and lower difficulties that you are geared for was main BfA complain. In SL they removed grind, kept systems. Then complexity of systems were main SL complain. In DF they do EXACTLY what people wanted - to keep progression simple, just level, then pick right talents for situation in single window and gear up (from multiple sources and with tier gear of course).

    Doesn't mean DF has zero progression outside. We know about professions with talent trees, dragon riding and switching zone reputations to renown like system with cosmetic and gear rewards.
    What I meant is some kind of character progression that's not solely about item level. We had that in every expansion since Legion. I know the issues of borrowed power systems and they've been explained a lot, but in Dragonflight we go from one extreme to another.

    You character progression in Legion, BfA and Shadowlands basically started at max level and was absent during leveling. In Dragonflight it's the exact opposite, your character progression is during leveling while it comes to a complete halt at max level. And I expect this to be a major issue because there's no ongoing development of your spec / character besides getting better gear. Your class just stays exactly the same the first time you reach max level during the course of the entire expansion. After 6 years of borrowed power I am pretty sure the majority of players will not see this positively.

    I'm not advocating for borrowed power, god forbig, I'm just saying that your class / spec should still evolve after max level. And in Dragonflight that's just not the case (at least not what we've been shown). They can implement something in 10.1 etc. sure, like Essences or whatever, but with the information we have now max level in Dragonflight seems to be very... boring. No solo endgame content akin to expeditions or Torghast, no class progression, nothing. Just gear treadmill.
    Last edited by Nyel; 2022-06-12 at 01:37 PM.
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  7. #58227
    @Nyel You ARE advocating for borrowed power. You want power progression different than gear after max level. What you expect from people to do when 11.0 will launch? Grind all these max level stuff?

    Because you know, gear/item level is 'borrowed power' as well, just more natural and acceptable. And no one said our playstyle won't change whole expansion, that's job for different tier sets.

  8. #58228
    Herald of the Titans Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    What I meant is some kind of character progression that's not solely about item level. We had that in every expansion since Legion. I know the issues of borrowed power systems and they've been explained a lot, but in Dragonflight we go from one extreme to another.

    You character progression in Legion, BfA and Shadowlands basically started at max level and was absent during leveling. In Dragonflight it's the exact opposite, your character progression is during leveling while it comes to a complete halt at max level. And I expect this to be a major issue because there's no ongoing development of your spec / character besides getting better gear. Your class just stays exactly the same the first time you reach max level during the course of the entire expansion. After 6 years of borrowed power I am pretty sure the majority of players will not see this positively.

    I'm not advocating for borrowed power, god forbig, I'm just saying that your class / spec should still evolve after max level. And in Dragonflight that's just not the case (at least not what we've been shown). They can implement something in 10.1 etc. sure, like Essences or whatever, but with the information we have now max level in Dragonflight seems to be very... boring. No solo endgame content akin to expeditions or Torghast, no class progression, nothing. Just gear treadmill.
    Sadly, no one besides a few people liked stuff like island expeditions or torghast, and while I enjoyed them stuff like visions can stay away from the game for good if you ask me. Same goes for any kind of "expansion wide borrowed power". It's fine if we "only" have to level and gear up, that's why the game has alts afterall. And as Dracullus said, tier sets will handle the "change your spec during an expansion" issue.

    And with fated raids at the end of an expansion you will have atleast 3 or more different tier set builds for your spec, which is actually quite awesome and diablo like, especially if they manage to balance them for different niches.

  9. #58229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    @Nyel You ARE advocating for borrowed power. You want power progression different than gear after max level. What you expect from people to do when 11.0 will launch? Grind all these max level stuff?

    Because you know, gear/item level is 'borrowed power' as well, just more natural and acceptable. And no one said our playstyle won't change whole expansion, that's job for different tier sets.
    I had this idea. What if the "borrowed power" was actually talent points. You could grind 5-10 additional talent points by hitting different targets throughout the xpac. Next xpac, if you have gained the talent points, when you get to those levels you gain nothing (but you also lose nothing). MEanwhile new players/alts will get those talents points by leveling. So you are not getting borrowed power, rather you get early access

  10. #58230
    Herald of the Titans Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I had this idea. What if the "borrowed power" was actually talent points. You could grind 5-10 additional talent points by hitting different targets throughout the xpac. Next xpac, if you have gained the talent points, when you get to those levels you gain nothing (but you also lose nothing). MEanwhile new players/alts will get those talents points by leveling. So you are not getting borrowed power, rather you get early access
    NOOOO! We don't want nor need borrowed power. What you want is exactly that. Eww.

    Gear is enough "progression" for max level.
    Last edited by Lady Atia; 2022-06-12 at 03:22 PM.

  11. #58231
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I had this idea. What if the "borrowed power" was actually talent points. You could grind 5-10 additional talent points by hitting different targets throughout the xpac. Next xpac, if you have gained the talent points, when you get to those levels you gain nothing (but you also lose nothing). MEanwhile new players/alts will get those talents points by leveling. So you are not getting borrowed power, rather you get early access
    I think it DF it (I mean progression beyond power) will be just connected to dragon riding. In early expansion to travel more efficient, in second part to show off your dragon. Hopefully it's like artifact weapon, but more customizations.

    I'm not enemy of borrowed power if done right (account wide, you don't get overwhelmed by 5 menus you must keep track before raid, it's always relevant after expansion for expansion continent and timewalking etc.), but this is so hated concept right now we just need one "clean" expansion or at least patch.

    Community in WoW have 0 trust in devs and total trust for wannabe dev from youtube/twtich, so sadly things works that way, people must burn their fingers just like with "loot must matter".

  12. #58232
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    NOOOO! We don't want nor need borrowed power. What you want is exactly that. Eww.

    Gear is enough "progression" for max level.
    Is that a royal "we" or are you speaking for a silent majority?

  13. #58233
    I mean, I feel like GW2 already kinda fixed this whole conundrum with Masteries. WoW should really look at something like that.

  14. #58234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    I think it DF it will be just connected to dragon riding. In early expansion to travel more efficient, in second part to show off your dragon. Hopefully it's like artifact weapon, but more customizations.

    I'm not enemy of borrowed power if done right (account wide, you don't get overwhelmed by 5 menus you must keep track before raid, it's always relevant after expansion for expansion continent and timewalking etc.), but this is so hated concept right now we just need one "clean" expansion or at least patch.

    Community in WoW have 0 trust in devs and total trust for wannabe dev from youtube/twtich, so sadly things works that way, people must burn their fingers just like with "loot must matter".
    The forums community might. I very much doubt the forum community is representative of the majority of the playerbase. Heck the forum community is not in any way unified. Individual borrowed power systems are not problematic. The problem was either in having multiple of them at once or having one that was endless to grind. A system like e.g. essences would work just fine if it was alone. Heck artifact power worked fine, it was only truly a problem because of the community's tryhard mentality, not because the tuning necessitated the endless grind.

  15. #58235
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I had this idea. What if the "borrowed power" was actually talent points. You could grind 5-10 additional talent points by hitting different targets throughout the xpac. Next xpac, if you have gained the talent points, when you get to those levels you gain nothing (but you also lose nothing). MEanwhile new players/alts will get those talents points by leveling. So you are not getting borrowed power, rather you get early access
    I am talking about something like exactly this. Or there are more talents that you can unlock at max level. Not just that one singular bottom talent, but more than that. Maybe a quite small talent tree that's specific for max level progression. When the next expansion comes, so max level talent trees are mixed into the usual one and we get a new max level talent tree etc. It's just insane to think that character progression stops exactly at the point when it becomes the most relevant (aka max level).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    @Nyel You ARE advocating for borrowed power. You want power progression different than gear after max level. What you expect from people to do when 11.0 will launch? Grind all these max level stuff?
    No, I'm not advocating for borrowed power. I'm adovacting for class progression that does not stop the second you reach max level.
    Last edited by Nyel; 2022-06-12 at 03:43 PM.
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  16. #58236
    Herald of the Titans Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Is that a royal "we" or are you speaking for a silent majority?
    Maybe .... both?

  17. #58237
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Sadly, no one besides a few people liked stuff like island expeditions or torghast, and while I enjoyed them stuff like visions can stay away from the game for good if you ask me. Same goes for any kind of "expansion wide borrowed power". It's fine if we "only" have to level and gear up, that's why the game has alts afterall. And as Dracullus said, tier sets will handle the "change your spec during an expansion" issue.

    And with fated raids at the end of an expansion you will have atleast 3 or more different tier set builds for your spec, which is actually quite awesome and diablo like, especially if they manage to balance them for different niches.
    Tier sets are super limited and super one dimensional though. When everything relies on gear, in 99% of the cases the item with the highest item level will always be the better option (especially when talking about gear from different tiers).

    And while I agree that expeditions & co. were not universally liked, there was at least something for max level to do besides the usual stuff. They just completely cut that content in Dragonflight.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    I mean, I feel like GW2 already kinda fixed this whole conundrum with Masteries. WoW should really look at something like that.
    Guild Wars 2, Elder Scrolls Online, heck even Lord of the Rings Online did that. Yet WoW refuses to achieve something similar and I have no idea why.
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  18. #58238
    Herald of the Titans Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Tier sets are super limited and super one dimensional though. When everything relies on gear, in 99% of the cases the item with the highest item level will always be the better option (especially when talking about gear from different tiers).

    And while I agree that expeditions & co. were not universally liked, there was at least something for max level to do besides the usual stuff. They just completely cut that content in Dragonflight.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Guild Wars 2, Elder Scrolls Online, heck even Lord of the Rings Online did that. Yet WoW refuses to achieve something similar and I have no idea why.
    Not if they design the game with a fated raid season in mind from the beginning. So imagine 3 smaller seasons, lets say 5-6 months and one bigger fated raid season with 7 months at the end. First season could give you a tier set that gives you more mobility, season 2 one that enhances your aoe while the 3rd would give you a set that increases your single target. Once the fated season comes out you will be able to use all three builds for different situations, or even mix and match them cause all three fated raids drop the same item level.

  19. #58239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Not if they design the game with a fated raid season in mind from the beginning. So imagine 3 smaller seasons, lets say 5-6 months and one bigger fated raid season with 7 months at the end. First season could give you a tier set that gives you more mobility, season 2 one that enhances your aoe while the 3rd would give you a set that increases your single target. Once the fated season comes out you will be able to use all three builds for different situations, or even mix and match them cause all three fated raids drop the same item level.
    Let's see how many people bother with the fated raid season in the first place.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Guild Wars 2, Elder Scrolls Online, heck even Lord of the Rings Online did that. Yet WoW refuses to achieve something similar and I have no idea why.
    To be fair, that they do it doesn't mean it's done well. ESO's champion points are horrible. Their only saving grace is that they are account wide. If you dared bring a new account into ESO it would take hundreds of hours of grinding to get to a decent enough level to be able to do dungeons. Probably would clock more than a thousand to be competitive.

  20. #58240
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    No, I'm not advocating for borrowed power. I'm adovacting for class progression that does not stop the second you reach max level.
    So you want max progression system that won't go away in 10.0. So what for 11.0, new power progression system? You will call devs lazy if they won't invent new one. What after that?

    That is just stupid, even in perfect world where everything is account wide new players will be screwed and devs would have to constantly think about old systems while designing new content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Guild Wars 2, Elder Scrolls Online, heck even Lord of the Rings Online did that. Yet WoW refuses to achieve something similar and I have no idea why.
    Oh yeah, all 3 praised for their amazing power progression design. xD
    Last edited by Dracullus; 2022-06-12 at 03:55 PM.

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