Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Makorus]

“Shadowlands pull threads all the way from Warcraft III, Eternity Ends serves as a final chapter of one book in the Warcraft saga” - the one book started back decades ago in the RTS and comes to closure in Shadowlands. That's exactly what they said lmao. I'm adding nothing, these are their own words (see their interviews for 9.2 back from November 2021).

LMAO you are literally misquoting the video so you are right.

Yes, Danuser did indeed say:

"The Shadowlands story pulls together threads that were started in WarCraft 3 and wove their way into many of our expansions."

and he also said:

"Eternity Ends serves as a final chapter of one book in the Warcraft saga."

But those lines are not back to back. They are at drastically different parts in the videos. The second line is not referring to the first line. There is no context between those lines. They are two indepedent sentences that have nothing to do with eachother. There are two different statements, not one, like you are trying to imply by muddling the facts.

[Therougetitan]

But those lines are not back to back. They are at drastically different parts in the videos. The second line is not referring to the first line. There is no context between those lines. They are two indepedent sentences that have nothing to do with eachother. There are two different statements, not one, like you are trying to imply by muddling the facts.

"Drastically different parts in the video" literally 18 seconds apart I think you should change your definition of drastically

[rhorle]

“Shadowlands pull threads all the way from Warcraft III, Eternity Ends serves as a final chapter of one book in the Warcraft saga” - the one book started back decades ago in the RTS and comes to closure in Shadowlands. That's exactly what they said lmao. I'm adding nothing, these are their own words (see their interviews for 9.2 back from November 2021).

That still doesn't mean the climax of the franchise. That would be like saying The Fellowship Of The Rings is the climax of the LOTR series. Warcraft, the franchise, has many different stories in it that are being told. Some get resolved quickly and some take years or decades. Legion also would have been the final chapter of one book in the Warcraft Saga because it brought about the end of the Burning Legion and Sargeras.

It also undermines your argument that Shadowlands was filler or "neglectable" if it was the end of a saga. The meaning of the words "final chapter" denote that it is important to the franchise.

[Revamp Man]

That still doesn't mean the climax of the franchise. That would be like saying The Fellowship Of The Rings is the climax of the LOTR series. Warcraft, the franchise, has many different stories in it that are being told. Some get resolved quickly and some take years or decades. Legion also would have been the final chapter of one book in the Warcraft Saga because it brought about the end of the Burning Legion and Sargeras.

It also undermines your argument that Shadowlands was filler or "neglectable" if it was the end of a saga. The meaning of the words "final chapter" denote that it is important to the franchise.

I mean their ending is "Ha the Jailer was behind everything and it was all part of his plan"
He had no build up
He has no unique motivation because he is essentially sargeras but less threatening
He was supposedly tricky and deceitful but he was always upfront about his goals

He was supposed to be the ultimate big bad for the history of what kicked off the WC rts games and the important points in the game and books but just kinda falls flat. He was an always present danger just like Arthas during the wotlk leveling experience but he never really had that feeling of "oh now it's going to get real". The final chapter kinda hit like the ending of the lotr movies where you could skip 90% of the fluff and just stick to a couple points.

The first book is what the rts games started but we have so much more and I'm here for it as long as it doesn't end up being "the bbeg is actually super ultra powerful and amazing and threatening but we aren't going to get into his backstory until later maybe in a book"

[huth]

He was supposedly tricky and deceitful but he was always upfront about his goals

So? You can use trickery and deceit to reach your goals even when everybody knows what your goals are. Using Anduin to get the Archon's sigil was definitely deceit and trickery, even though the Archon knew Zovaal wanted it.

Those aren't mutually exclusive.

[Makorus]

I mean their ending is "Ha the Jailer was behind everything and it was all part of his plan"
He had no build up
He has no unique motivation because he is essentially sargeras but less threatening
He was supposedly tricky and deceitful but he was always upfront about his goals

He was supposed to be the ultimate big bad for the history of what kicked off the WC rts games and the important points in the game and books but just kinda falls flat. He was an always present danger just like Arthas during the wotlk leveling experience but he never really had that feeling of "oh now it's going to get real". The final chapter kinda hit like the ending of the lotr movies where you could skip 90% of the fluff and just stick to a couple points.

The first book is what the rts games started but we have so much more and I'm here for it as long as it doesn't end up being "the bbeg is actually super ultra powerful and amazing and threatening but we aren't going to get into his backstory until later maybe in a book"

He wasn't supposed to be the ultimate big bad for the history of what kicked off the WC RTS games.

[rhorle]

He had no build up

He had an entire expansion of build up. Pretty much the same as any other bad guy. None of the bad guys in WoW have had unique motivation. Old gods share the same goal through out each appearance. The Burning Legion always had the same goal. The threats always alternated between Burning Legion and Old Gods. Every threat in WoW is as you describe. The only difference was your interest in those stories versus your interest in Shadowlands.

Everything about WoW has been "See these super powerful things that we will get more information about later". It took 6 expansions (Legion 7.0) to get "full" information about the Titans and we are still learning new stuff since Dragonflight will expand on their influence. So if you don't want to wait for information about lore figures than WoW was never the game for you.

[Yunravel]

you've got your head burried in the sand I see. But the story did progress quite a lot in Shadowlands and you can expect many rippling effects to be noticeable in the coming expansions.

People already acknowledged that the relationship between life and death, Winter Queen and Elune, has been developed to be continued in future expansions (we already have hints for the seed given to Tyrande that it will probably find its place in the dragon isles).
Galywix traded with brokers and their order are not inline with what titans are doing (whose wardens will be there during dragonflight).
Vol'jin has accepted the powers of Rezan and will come back to life in a future expansion.
Anduin has stepped down from his king responsibilities and will look for an answer to who he is supposed to be as a king and how he can go forward with the pain he's inflicted to the world.
The scourge is once more existing and devided at the same time. It will probably become a tool of destruction once more but probably used by another force compeltely.
There is another kind of cosmos order that exist and which is probably a threat to all the forces we know for now.
Denathrius has left the Shadowlands with some of his nathrezim followers and will most likely act to upset the existing balance of the cosmos. We don't really have a clue to what motivates them though (which is why I was never really sold on Denathrius)

You have many other threads to be continued and that have been started or continued in the shadowlands. The fact that you didn't read the quests or played the expansion and feel like there isn't anything in it is moot. There are things to be read and stories to get invested in. You will see some of them play out in later expansions.

you guys are all so wrong, they've been saying for months that Shadowlands was the climax of the whole Warcraft saga, because the big bad Jailer was behind the Legion creation, because in the end, Sargeras corruption was thanks to the Nathrezim, serving Denathrius who is loyal to Zovaal. Because he was the one behind everything we've been fighting.

[Raetary]

He wasn't supposed to be the ultimate big bad for the history of what kicked off the WC RTS games.

He wasn't?

Because they sure as hell wrote him to be just that.
Seeing as he was the one who orchestrated the Nathrezims ploys, the creation of the Burning Legion and the Lich King, up to and including the just right stabbing of Azeroth. (which he somehow prophesized, a power he apparently has but has never been shown to use)

Being behind warcraft biggest and most iconic antagonistic forces, sure as hell sounds like an über-villain to me.

[rhorle]

you guys are all so wrong, they've been saying for months that Shadowlands was the climax of the whole Warcraft saga, because the big bad Jailer was behind the Legion creation, because in the end, Sargeras corruption was thanks to the Nathrezim, serving Denathrius who is loyal to Zovaal. Because he was the one behind everything we've been fighting.

No. They said it was the climax of story lines started way back when. Not that it was the climax of the entire saga. The Jailer wasn't behind the Legion creation but he did influence and infiltrate their ranks. The Jailer did not create the Void Lords. Sargeras actually put a stop to the Jailers plans because he destroyed the Nathrezim that were working with the Old Gods to corrupt a Titan world soul.

It also isn't clear how loyal Denathrius is to Zovaal and if their goals always aligned. It is more like Zovaal tried to bring about his plan by any means over time. Tried to infiltrate the Void, the Light, and everything else. That doesn't mean he was behind every specific faction doing what they did but only that he influenced or tried to get them to do specific things. Hence why when all of those things failed he kept trying until something eventually worked.

- - - Updated - - -

Being behind warcraft biggest and most iconic antagonistic forces, sure as hell sounds like an über-villain to me.

He wasn't behind the biggest and most iconic forces. He was simply trying to use them for his own goals. Even the scourge created by the Legion with gifts from Zovaal rebelled against the Jailer(and Legion). It is the reason given for there always needing to be a Lich King. Otherwise the Jailer would have taken control and brought about his plans sooner. The Jailer didn't create the threat of the Void Lords though he may have inflated their goals/importance to Sargeras.

Zovaal is just another "Cosmic-level" force trying to do things. Similar to the Titans. Similar to the Void and Old Gods. Similar to the Light and Naaru. And all the other cosmic forces that are doing their thing with or with out influence from the others.

Also do you have a source for the Jailer predicting/deciding where to stab Azeroth? I don't remember seeing that connection before and would be interested to see the context and specific lore.

[Revamp Man]

He wasn't supposed to be the ultimate big bad for the history of what kicked off the WC RTS games.

Yeah that is how they painted him in the books and games
He was behind the helm of domination and frostmourne
He was behind sargeras going crazy
His minions did the leg work that caused the first war

[Polybius]

I’m still recoiling at the Jailer’s cringeworthy dialogue. Why it needed to come off like some 6-year old wrote it i’ll never get. Maybe their team wasn’t ready to jump into more cosmic stories, esp. with tight deadlines and no precedent for the Shadowlands. It’s hard not to write themselves into a corner with universe origins and all that.

[Hitei]

He wasn't?

Because they sure as hell wrote him to be just that.
Seeing as he was the one who orchestrated the Nathrezims ploys, the creation of the Burning Legion and the Lich King, up to and including the just right stabbing of Azeroth. (which he somehow prophesized, a power he apparently has but has never been shown to use)

Being behind warcraft biggest and most iconic antagonistic forces, sure as hell sounds like an über-villain to me.

No, they didn't. I wish people would stop just regurgitating this point over and over despite it being patently wrong.

The Dread Lords have not been responsible for the Legion's formation for over a fucking decade.

The Legion was formed because Sargeras found a world that was on the verge of being totally Old God-ed and falling into a Void titan, where Dread Lords were fucking around with Void magic. The Dread Lords didn't trick him into starting the Legion, Sargeras asked them what the fuck was happening and they told him about the Void and what it was trying to do, and then he went "well fuck that shit" and decided the only option was the Burning Crusade.

For almost the entire history of the Legion, the Dread Lords weren't carrying out the Jailer's orders, they were working for Sargeras and following Sargeras' orders as part of their ongoing efforts to be sleeper agents (read: Not do anything and blend in unless something comes up). The Jailer isn't anymore responsible for the basic actions of the Legion than the Soviet Union was responsible for a Russian sleeper agent mowing his lawn.

The Jailer was responsible for floating the idea of the Scourge and Lich King to the Legion, as well as providing the helm and Frostmourne via the Dread Lords--but that is all, because this plan actually failed miserably and the Lich King turned out to not be a useful asset at all. The Lich King itself did not follow the Jailer's Orders (that only order was "spread the influence of Death" btw), it followed the Legion's (read: kil'jaeden's) orders until the Scourge splintered, after which it followed the hybrid Ner'zhul's orders and then Arthas'.

The Jailer had fuck all to do with Sargeras wanting to stab Azeroth: you know, the same thing he did immediately after finding out about the Void and what it was trying to do. Nor 99% of any of the events that led up to it. I really, really wish people would stop just spouting "the Jailer was behind Sargeras". Sargeras was behind Sargeras, or if you really wanted to pretend he wasn't responsible for HIS OWN actions and choices, the Void was behind Sargeras.

The Jailer isn't the ultimate big bad, he is a strategist whose M.O. was sticking sleeper agents into other factions, waiting for something that could be advantageous, and then having those sleeper agents sabotage the thing or otherwise shift the situation such that it would also benefit him: He didn't create Argus, he realized that Argus could be weaponized such that whenever it eventually died, it would act as a trap card to zap the Arbiter and hasten his escape. He didn't lead the Scourge, he suggested the idea and then hoped they'd eventually do something he could use. He didn't order Vol'jin killed, he saw an opportunity to slide his agent into the Warchief position and had Mueh'zala trick Vol'jin into picking Sylvanas. He didn't convince Sylvanas to kill herself, he saw the chance with the Lich King dead to bring someone else with decent influence and potential to his side.

Arguably the only event he actually directly orchestrated and saw through was the Fourth war, which was not a crucial, key piece of his plan, it was a way to speed up the number of souls and amount of anima being dumped into the Maw.

His entire character is based on the idea that what he is good at is finding useful tools and turning situations outside his control to his advantage NOT making those tools or forcing those situations to happen. Turning his chains into weapons, turning a titan-forged betrayed by her Keeper into an in with the Kyrian, turning an usurped Loa into an in with the Trolls, turning a Titan soul being used as a factory into a missile, turning the Legion's obsession with Azeroth into a faction of undead to spread the influence of his cosmic power instead, turning a jaded Banshee faction leader into someone working for his interests. He didn't wait for Anduin to be born and have Varian killed off to position Anduin as leader so that Sylvanas could steal him to infiltrate the Kyrian--Sylvanas fucked up the war effort to dump souls into the Maw and kidnapped any leader she could, and when the Jailer dumped out the bag, Anduin happened to be there and a good candidate for stealing the Kyrian sigil--something he didn't even realize until you showed up and Anduin demonstrated his mastery over the Light.

He wasn't behind most of Warcraft history, he was off to the side of it keeping watch for helpful things he could quietly bring into the fold.

[Nymrohd]

Honestly the one thing about Death vs Fel that always seemed important was how Fel works. And it works by BURNING souls. Varian is not in the Shadowlands cause his anima has been snuffed. Really the idea of the drought is silly; from the moment the Crusade begun, the drought already begun. The Legion was enslaving worlds and using every soul as power in their soul engines. So the Shadowlands had been shorted of an enormous amount of anima well before Argus shorted the Arbiter.

Perhaps this was part of the plan ofc. Starve them and the defenses would be easier to fall.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Honestly the one thing about Death vs Fel that always seemed important was how Fel works. And it works by BURNING souls. Varian is not in the Shadowlands cause his anima has been snuffed. Really the idea of the drought is silly; from the moment the Crusade begun, the drought already begun. The Legion was enslaving worlds and using every soul as power in their soul engines. So the Shadowlands had been shorted of an enormous amount of anima well before Argus shorted the Arbiter.

Perhaps this was part of the plan ofc. Starve them and the defenses would be easier to fall.

The amount of worlds they burned was probably not nearly as much to the entire universe suddenly not giving away any souls so no the drought didn't start when the Burning Crusade began, thats faulty.

[Raetary]

Also do you have a source for the Jailer predicting/deciding where to stab Azeroth? I don't remember seeing that connection before and would be interested to see the context and specific lore.

From the Sylvanas novel, he gave Sylvie what's essentially a prophecy that would get her to his side.

"Watch for these five signs, and know my words are true. A fiery darkness will return. You must step out of the shadows and lead. A blade will pierce the heart of the world, and you shall hold the blood from that wound and sense its power. And finally... you shall topple a king, and shatter the sky itself."

[rhorle]

From the Sylvanas novel, he gave Sylvie what's essentially a prophecy that would get her to his side.

Is it a prophecy though? If he pulled strings to influence actions or knowledge it isn't a prophecy but simply a plan. It also could have been something Sargeras always planned to do in order to kill Azeroth if corrupted and the Jailer used it to trick Sylvanas rather then something he made happen.

[Khaza-R]

The amount of worlds they burned was probably not nearly as much to the entire universe suddenly not giving away any souls so no the drought didn't start when the Burning Crusade began, thats faulty.

He's kind of right though. The fate of worlds in the WarCraft cosmos is depicted as pretty bleak. Either Sargeras destroyed them or the Void consumed them. But either way it should be robbing the Shadowlands of anima.

[rhorle]

He's kind of right though. The fate of worlds in the WarCraft cosmos is depicted as pretty bleak. Either Sargeras destroyed them or the Void consumed them. But either way it should be robbing the Shadowlands of anima.

Not everyone killed by the Legion is used as a power source though. So there would still be plenty of souls sent to the Shadowlands. It could be that there is a dip in the flow from the cosmic forces taking over. Though it seems more likely that the universe is filled with more life then we thought and the cosmic forces don't care much about a world that doesn't have a titan-soul. Remember Dreanor was largely ignored as a planet until attention was brought to it by the fleeing Dreanei but it did have its own primal forces of life.

[Revamp Man]

From the Sylvanas novel, he gave Sylvie what's essentially a prophecy that would get her to his side.

Without telling her he caused all of it

Honestly that was his biggest play and it highlighted how he can use his influence to be clever