1. #58621
    The Insane Arafal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    He wasn't supposed to be the ultimate big bad for the history of what kicked off the WC RTS games.
    He wasn't?

    Because they sure as hell wrote him to be just that.
    Seeing as he was the one who orchestrated the Nathrezims ploys, the creation of the Burning Legion and the Lich King, up to and including the just right stabbing of Azeroth. (which he somehow prophesized, a power he apparently has but has never been shown to use)

    Being behind warcraft biggest and most iconic antagonistic forces, sure as hell sounds like an über-villain to me.



  2. #58622
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yunravel View Post
    you guys are all so wrong, they've been saying for months that Shadowlands was the climax of the whole Warcraft saga, because the big bad Jailer was behind the Legion creation, because in the end, Sargeras corruption was thanks to the Nathrezim, serving Denathrius who is loyal to Zovaal. Because he was the one behind everything we've been fighting.
    No. They said it was the climax of story lines started way back when. Not that it was the climax of the entire saga. The Jailer wasn't behind the Legion creation but he did influence and infiltrate their ranks. The Jailer did not create the Void Lords. Sargeras actually put a stop to the Jailers plans because he destroyed the Nathrezim that were working with the Old Gods to corrupt a Titan world soul.

    It also isn't clear how loyal Denathrius is to Zovaal and if their goals always aligned. It is more like Zovaal tried to bring about his plan by any means over time. Tried to infiltrate the Void, the Light, and everything else. That doesn't mean he was behind every specific faction doing what they did but only that he influenced or tried to get them to do specific things. Hence why when all of those things failed he kept trying until something eventually worked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    Being behind warcraft biggest and most iconic antagonistic forces, sure as hell sounds like an über-villain to me.
    He wasn't behind the biggest and most iconic forces. He was simply trying to use them for his own goals. Even the scourge created by the Legion with gifts from Zovaal rebelled against the Jailer(and Legion). It is the reason given for there always needing to be a Lich King. Otherwise the Jailer would have taken control and brought about his plans sooner. The Jailer didn't create the threat of the Void Lords though he may have inflated their goals/importance to Sargeras.

    Zovaal is just another "Cosmic-level" force trying to do things. Similar to the Titans. Similar to the Void and Old Gods. Similar to the Light and Naaru. And all the other cosmic forces that are doing their thing with or with out influence from the others.

    Also do you have a source for the Jailer predicting/deciding where to stab Azeroth? I don't remember seeing that connection before and would be interested to see the context and specific lore.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-06-19 at 06:43 PM.
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  3. #58623
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    He wasn't supposed to be the ultimate big bad for the history of what kicked off the WC RTS games.
    Yeah that is how they painted him in the books and games
    He was behind the helm of domination and frostmourne
    He was behind sargeras going crazy
    His minions did the leg work that caused the first war

  4. #58624
    Scarab Lord Polybius's Avatar
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    I’m still recoiling at the Jailer’s cringeworthy dialogue. Why it needed to come off like some 6-year old wrote it i’ll never get. Maybe their team wasn’t ready to jump into more cosmic stories, esp. with tight deadlines and no precedent for the Shadowlands. It’s hard not to write themselves into a corner with universe origins and all that.

  5. #58625
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    He wasn't?

    Because they sure as hell wrote him to be just that.
    Seeing as he was the one who orchestrated the Nathrezims ploys, the creation of the Burning Legion and the Lich King, up to and including the just right stabbing of Azeroth. (which he somehow prophesized, a power he apparently has but has never been shown to use)

    Being behind warcraft biggest and most iconic antagonistic forces, sure as hell sounds like an über-villain to me.
    No, they didn't. I wish people would stop just regurgitating this point over and over despite it being patently wrong.

    The Dread Lords have not been responsible for the Legion's formation for over a fucking decade.

    The Legion was formed because Sargeras found a world that was on the verge of being totally Old God-ed and falling into a Void titan, where Dread Lords were fucking around with Void magic. The Dread Lords didn't trick him into starting the Legion, Sargeras asked them what the fuck was happening and they told him about the Void and what it was trying to do, and then he went "well fuck that shit" and decided the only option was the Burning Crusade.

    For almost the entire history of the Legion, the Dread Lords weren't carrying out the Jailer's orders, they were working for Sargeras and following Sargeras' orders as part of their ongoing efforts to be sleeper agents (read: Not do anything and blend in unless something comes up). The Jailer isn't anymore responsible for the basic actions of the Legion than the Soviet Union was responsible for a Russian sleeper agent mowing his lawn.

    The Jailer was responsible for floating the idea of the Scourge and Lich King to the Legion, as well as providing the helm and Frostmourne via the Dread Lords--but that is all, because this plan actually failed miserably and the Lich King turned out to not be a useful asset at all. The Lich King itself did not follow the Jailer's Orders (that only order was "spread the influence of Death" btw), it followed the Legion's (read: kil'jaeden's) orders until the Scourge splintered, after which it followed the hybrid Ner'zhul's orders and then Arthas'.

    The Jailer had fuck all to do with Sargeras wanting to stab Azeroth: you know, the same thing he did immediately after finding out about the Void and what it was trying to do. Nor 99% of any of the events that led up to it. I really, really wish people would stop just spouting "the Jailer was behind Sargeras". Sargeras was behind Sargeras, or if you really wanted to pretend he wasn't responsible for HIS OWN actions and choices, the Void was behind Sargeras.

    The Jailer isn't the ultimate big bad, he is a strategist whose M.O. was sticking sleeper agents into other factions, waiting for something that could be advantageous, and then having those sleeper agents sabotage the thing or otherwise shift the situation such that it would also benefit him: He didn't create Argus, he realized that Argus could be weaponized such that whenever it eventually died, it would act as a trap card to zap the Arbiter and hasten his escape. He didn't lead the Scourge, he suggested the idea and then hoped they'd eventually do something he could use. He didn't order Vol'jin killed, he saw an opportunity to slide his agent into the Warchief position and had Mueh'zala trick Vol'jin into picking Sylvanas. He didn't convince Sylvanas to kill herself, he saw the chance with the Lich King dead to bring someone else with decent influence and potential to his side.

    Arguably the only event he actually directly orchestrated and saw through was the Fourth war, which was not a crucial, key piece of his plan, it was a way to speed up the number of souls and amount of anima being dumped into the Maw.

    His entire character is based on the idea that what he is good at is finding useful tools and turning situations outside his control to his advantage NOT making those tools or forcing those situations to happen. Turning his chains into weapons, turning a titan-forged betrayed by her Keeper into an in with the Kyrian, turning an usurped Loa into an in with the Trolls, turning a Titan soul being used as a factory into a missile, turning the Legion's obsession with Azeroth into a faction of undead to spread the influence of his cosmic power instead, turning a jaded Banshee faction leader into someone working for his interests. He didn't wait for Anduin to be born and have Varian killed off to position Anduin as leader so that Sylvanas could steal him to infiltrate the Kyrian--Sylvanas fucked up the war effort to dump souls into the Maw and kidnapped any leader she could, and when the Jailer dumped out the bag, Anduin happened to be there and a good candidate for stealing the Kyrian sigil--something he didn't even realize until you showed up and Anduin demonstrated his mastery over the Light.

    He wasn't behind most of Warcraft history, he was off to the side of it keeping watch for helpful things he could quietly bring into the fold.

  6. #58626
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Honestly the one thing about Death vs Fel that always seemed important was how Fel works. And it works by BURNING souls. Varian is not in the Shadowlands cause his anima has been snuffed. Really the idea of the drought is silly; from the moment the Crusade begun, the drought already begun. The Legion was enslaving worlds and using every soul as power in their soul engines. So the Shadowlands had been shorted of an enormous amount of anima well before Argus shorted the Arbiter.

    Perhaps this was part of the plan ofc. Starve them and the defenses would be easier to fall.

  7. #58627
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Honestly the one thing about Death vs Fel that always seemed important was how Fel works. And it works by BURNING souls. Varian is not in the Shadowlands cause his anima has been snuffed. Really the idea of the drought is silly; from the moment the Crusade begun, the drought already begun. The Legion was enslaving worlds and using every soul as power in their soul engines. So the Shadowlands had been shorted of an enormous amount of anima well before Argus shorted the Arbiter.

    Perhaps this was part of the plan ofc. Starve them and the defenses would be easier to fall.
    The amount of worlds they burned was probably not nearly as much to the entire universe suddenly not giving away any souls so no the drought didn't start when the Burning Crusade began, thats faulty.
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  8. #58628
    The Insane Arafal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Also do you have a source for the Jailer predicting/deciding where to stab Azeroth? I don't remember seeing that connection before and would be interested to see the context and specific lore.
    From the Sylvanas novel, he gave Sylvie what's essentially a prophecy that would get her to his side.
    "Watch for these five signs, and know my words are true. A fiery darkness will return. You must step out of the shadows and lead. A blade will pierce the heart of the world, and you shall hold the blood from that wound and sense its power. And finally... you shall topple a king, and shatter the sky itself."



  9. #58629
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    From the Sylvanas novel, he gave Sylvie what's essentially a prophecy that would get her to his side.
    Is it a prophecy though? If he pulled strings to influence actions or knowledge it isn't a prophecy but simply a plan. It also could have been something Sargeras always planned to do in order to kill Azeroth if corrupted and the Jailer used it to trick Sylvanas rather then something he made happen.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  10. #58630
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    The amount of worlds they burned was probably not nearly as much to the entire universe suddenly not giving away any souls so no the drought didn't start when the Burning Crusade began, thats faulty.
    He's kind of right though. The fate of worlds in the WarCraft cosmos is depicted as pretty bleak. Either Sargeras destroyed them or the Void consumed them. But either way it should be robbing the Shadowlands of anima.

  11. #58631
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    He's kind of right though. The fate of worlds in the WarCraft cosmos is depicted as pretty bleak. Either Sargeras destroyed them or the Void consumed them. But either way it should be robbing the Shadowlands of anima.
    Not everyone killed by the Legion is used as a power source though. So there would still be plenty of souls sent to the Shadowlands. It could be that there is a dip in the flow from the cosmic forces taking over. Though it seems more likely that the universe is filled with more life then we thought and the cosmic forces don't care much about a world that doesn't have a titan-soul. Remember Dreanor was largely ignored as a planet until attention was brought to it by the fleeing Dreanei but it did have its own primal forces of life.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  12. #58632
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    From the Sylvanas novel, he gave Sylvie what's essentially a prophecy that would get her to his side.
    Without telling her he caused all of it

    Honestly that was his biggest play and it highlighted how he can use his influence to be clever

  13. #58633
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    The amount of worlds they burned was probably not nearly as much to the entire universe suddenly not giving away any souls so no the drought didn't start when the Burning Crusade began, thats faulty.
    I was under the impression that Azeroth was pretty much the last world left. Everything else is either destroyed or awash in fel.

  14. #58634
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    He's kind of right though. The fate of worlds in the WarCraft cosmos is depicted as pretty bleak. Either Sargeras destroyed them or the Void consumed them. But either way it should be robbing the Shadowlands of anima.

    Which would take a looong ass time because Sargeras can't just easily travel to other worlds nor can the Legion do it fast. No drought would actually happen for hundreds or even hundred thousands of years. I'm probably being conservative with how much time it would take. Also right now the Void doesn't seem to be doing too mucha at the moment minus Azeroth and who knows if they are succeeding or not but that can be changed as soon as Dragonflight.


    I was under the impression that Azeroth was pretty much the last world left. Everything else is either destroyed or awash in fel.
    Its just an assumption, its not outright stated to be the case and well we can feel weird about the cosmic part but looking at reality there could be hundreds of planets and its not feasible the Legion conquered them all.

    I doubt Blizzard would just say "only Azeroth has life on it." I mean they could but that might give them less expansion or world building opportunities.
    Last edited by Aeluron Lightsong; 2022-06-19 at 08:55 PM.
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  15. #58635
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I was under the impression that Azeroth was pretty much the last world left. Everything else is either destroyed or awash in fel.
    I thought it was just the last world soul and not the last planet with life. It may have been a retcon though. Didn't TBC imply there were world with other life because the Naaru have a "prison"? Though I'm not sure much thought went into the lore since they did have a gnome lol.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  16. #58636
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    I thought it was just the last world soul and not the last planet with life. It may have been a retcon though. Didn't TBC imply there were world with other life because the Naaru have a "prison"? Though I'm not sure much thought went into the lore since they did have a gnome lol.
    Consider the known size of our universe. It's not remotely realistic the Legion actually purged a meaningful percentage of it; it was pretty much a huge waste of time. Sargeras plan with the other Titan makes far more sense in that context, he was basically running the fire-and-blade purges as a distraction for the demons and his enemies while he was working on the real plan to end things, knowing that he could never finish the job by hand in any reasonable timeframe.

  17. #58637
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Consider the known size of our universe. It's not remotely realistic the Legion actually purged a meaningful percentage of it; it was pretty much a huge waste of time. Sargeras plan with the other Titan makes far more sense in that context, he was basically running the fire-and-blade purges as a distraction for the demons and his enemies while he was working on the real plan to end things, knowing that he could never finish the job by hand in any reasonable timeframe.
    Okay. But without Sargeras or Zovaal they have no goal. Even the most high-ranking demons give fuck all about corrupting or undoing the universe or would even know how. Almost all their powers came directly from Sargeras so not only do they have no goal, they have no power.

  18. #58638
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Okay. But without Sargeras or Zovaal they have no goal. Even the most high-ranking demons give fuck all about corrupting or undoing the universe or would even know how. Almost all their powers came directly from Sargeras so not only do they have no goal, they have no power.
    I don't think you even remotely understood what you're responding to.

  19. #58639
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Okay. But without Sargeras or Zovaal they have no goal. Even the most high-ranking demons give fuck all about corrupting or undoing the universe or would even know how. Almost all their powers came directly from Sargeras so not only do they have no goal, they have no power.
    We know that isn't true because Demons had power even before Sargeras was "corrupted". They might not have been able to stand against a Titan (or two) but they still had their own power and only became less of a threat because they were imprisoned. It is strange how Elementals and Demons share similar traits in both "respawning" and both being imprisoned by Titans (or their keepers).

    Sargeras just empowered them further when he freed them from the prison he created. They are still powerful with out him around even if his boon has faded. Remember he isn't dead either so no telling if it has faded or can't be replicated on "new" demons. Wowpedia also has speculation about "Fel Lords". I don't think it has ever been clarified if those are "cosmic force leaders" or a reference to Void Lords since demons and the void mix often.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-06-20 at 12:56 AM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  20. #58640
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    We know that isn't true because Demons had power even before Sargeras was "corrupted". They might not have been able to stand against a Titan (or two) but they still had their own power and only became less of a threat because they were imprisoned. It is strange how Elementals and Demons share similar traits in both "respawning" and both being imprisoned by Titans (or their keepers).

    Sargeras just empowered them further when he freed them from the prison he created. They are still powerful with out him around even if his boon has faded. Remember he isn't dead either so no telling if it has faded or can't be replicated on "new" demons. Wowpedia also has speculation about "Fel Lords". I don't think it has ever been clarified if those are "cosmic force leaders" or a reference to Void Lords since demons and the void mix often.
    If that's so why did the invasion instantly end the moment Sargeras was imprisoned?

    There's so many references to "Sargeras' power" any innate power demons had beforehand was basically a racial ability: Hardly a substantial threat to any planet.

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