1. #58741
    Stood in the Fire Berkilak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veluren View Post
    Honestly, the wording of that, though I might be reading between lines that aren't there, makes me think they might make it a toggle, like you can be in dragon form all the time, or let you fight in your human form for the stuff that's just gestures and motions, then make you switch for the stuff that requires dragon biology like wings or breath weapon and then switch back.

    I feel like that would be kinda nice, just as a flavor thing.
    The design intent was still that you're in the draconic form while in combat. That was simply a couched response to the (in my mind, unwarranted) backlash that decision created. Being in humanoid form while in combat is not something that was intended when they made the initial announcement.

  2. #58742
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I mean given that if you don't enjoy Evoker you have no other way to play Dracthyr, it is very limited as a race.
    It is still a race and a class though. No one is denying that it is limited.
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  3. #58743
    Quote Originally Posted by Berkilak View Post
    The design intent was still that you're in the draconic form while in combat. That was simply a couched response to the (in my mind, unwarranted) backlash that decision created. Being in humanoid form while in combat is not something that was intended when they made the initial announcement.
    I think they may have been actually considering it beforehand. Think about how much work is being put into the visage forms... which, if they were never in combat, would never be seen by anyone but RPers and people fucking around.

    It's not like Worgen where the human form isn't super special, the only thing unique is the voice lines. Dracthyr Visage is extremely customizable so it makes sense they would want their hard work to be out in the world.

  4. #58744
    Stood in the Fire Berkilak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    I think they may have been actually considering it beforehand. Think about how much work is being put into the visage forms... which, if they were never in combat, would never be seen by anyone but RPers and people fucking around.

    It's not like Worgen where the human form isn't super special, the only thing unique is the voice lines. Dracthyr Visage is extremely customizable so it makes sense they would want their hard work to be out in the world.
    I think, ultimately, the visages originated as a convenient lore excuse to re-use existing rigs so they don't have to deal with awkward interactions, like Drac'thyr mounting and the like. Non-combat stuff. The visage-in-combat stuff wasn't so much as hinted at until certain forum users got uppity about it - prior to that, they were quite clear that this race exists because the class isn't possibly with the traditional biology of the existing roster.

  5. #58745
    Herald of the Titans Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkilak View Post
    I think, ultimately, the visages originated as a convenient lore excuse to re-use existing rigs so they don't have to deal with awkward interactions, like Drac'thyr mounting and the like. Non-combat stuff. The visage-in-combat stuff wasn't so much as hinted at until certain forum users got uppity about it - prior to that, they were quite clear that this race exists because the class isn't possibly with the traditional biology of the existing roster.
    Which is still the case with the current approach of allowing the visage form during some of the combat.

  6. #58746
    Quote Originally Posted by Berkilak View Post
    I think, ultimately, the visages originated as a convenient lore excuse to re-use existing rigs so they don't have to deal with awkward interactions, like Drac'thyr mounting and the like. Non-combat stuff. The visage-in-combat stuff wasn't so much as hinted at until certain forum users got uppity about it - prior to that, they were quite clear that this race exists because the class isn't possibly with the traditional biology of the existing roster.
    But why make the visage form at all if it's just something that a few players will ever toggle on? I know the CHOICES of the visage forms being "new biology" is just to limit it to two races, but the sheer existence of the visage form is a waste of money and effort from the devs if you never ever see it.

    I see your point about mounts, which is a clever way to get around it, but i think that's kind of it.
    Last edited by Cheezits; 2022-06-17 at 03:03 PM.

  7. #58747
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    But why make the visage form at all if it's just something that a few players will ever toggle on? I know the CHOICES of the visage forms being "new biology" is just to limit it to two races, by the sheer existence of the visage form is a waste of money and effort if you never ever see it.
    Because they wanted to? Not everything needs a strict purpose or a reason. It is the same reason why feral and bear druids get Tier sets when a lot of the time they are in their forms that don't show armor. There is also a non-zero chance that the system created to support the Visage form customization gets expanded to other races/things.
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  8. #58748
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    This. Legion established so many things that are seen as base game now and this cannot be stressed enough. Unfortunately none of the things from the later expansions have received this status yet and it’s a shame that they don’t even try to do something similar.
    I might be forgetting some things but didn’t it only have mythic+ and world quest become part of The base game? Both of which kinds jsut boil down to a new dungeon and quest system where for dragon flight we’re getting a new talent, flying and profession system all meant to be part of the base form now on which would actually put it ahead of legion even without us seeing what else they have in store.
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  9. #58749
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    I might be forgetting some things but didn’t it only have mythic+ and world quest become part of The base game? Both of which kinds jsut boil down to a new dungeon and quest system where for dragon flight we’re getting a new talent, flying and profession system all meant to be part of the base form now on which would actually put it ahead of legion even without us seeing what else they have in store.
    Legion laid the groundwork for Mythic+ and world quests / events (like invasions), which are still used today. Just think about BfA and Shadowlands not having Mythic+. That alone was a huge success that they are re-using now for every expansion, because it makes sense. Same can be said about world quests.

    Legion also had a profession revamp that was thrown out of the window just an expansion later, that's pretty much what we can expect from the Dragonflight profession revamp as well. Dragonriding is strictly limited to the Dragon Isles, so I wouldn't call that a new flying system at all. They already said the barriers to bring this to the entire world are massive and would require a ton of work - and for what? Just to have restricted flying everywhere?

    I give you the talent system, that's something for Dragonflight and the future beyond.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    The difference is, artifacts and class halls alone could feed months of speculation.
    And were overall just way more exciting, not only for lore-reasons, but mechanically as well. And it wasn't just that, it was having very important characters return (we know that from the Gamescom presentation) and then an iconic new class on top of that. Dragonflight is just missing the "iconic" factor that was the pure essence of Legion's announcement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Veluren View Post
    Honestly, the wording of that, though I might be reading between lines that aren't there, makes me think they might make it a toggle, like you can be in dragon form all the time, or let you fight in your human form for the stuff that's just gestures and motions, then make you switch for the stuff that requires dragon biology like wings or breath weapon and then switch back.

    I feel like that would be kinda nice, just as a flavor thing.
    This is what I'm hoping for as well. I want to play an Evoker, I don't want to play a Dracthyr. So this middle-of-the-road approach would be great. I mean it's pretty much like Demon Hunters go into Metamorphosis while using Eye Beam... that's what I hope for Evoker as well. Don't force me to fight in that ugly ass dragon form.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    I think they may have been actually considering it beforehand. Think about how much work is being put into the visage forms... which, if they were never in combat, would never be seen by anyone but RPers and people fucking around.

    It's not like Worgen where the human form isn't super special, the only thing unique is the voice lines. Dracthyr Visage is extremely customizable so it makes sense they would want their hard work to be out in the world.
    I mean it's still just the face and besides some scales and fancy hair colors, what exactly is costing them "so much work" for the visage form? I just don't see it. It's just different facial cosmetics.
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  10. #58750
    Stood in the Fire Berkilak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Which is still the case with the current approach of allowing the visage form during some of the combat.
    Regardless, my point is that was not the original intent.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    But why make the visage form at all if it's just something that a few players will ever toggle on? I know the CHOICES of the visage forms being "new biology" is just to limit it to two races, but the sheer existence of the visage form is a waste of money and effort from the devs if you never ever see it.

    I see your point about mounts, which is a clever way to get around it, but i think that's kind of it.
    Why have Two Forms for Worgen when most forget that their human form exists the second they load in? Because, at minimum, it is an element of the fantasy. And by reusing existing rigs, they're not investing much to make this happen (just like Two Forms). And who knows how they utilize it? It could automatically toggle on when you enter a Sanctuary zone. Or when crafting or gathering. Or speaking to NPCs. Or whatever else. The point is, it's not like they're adding an entirely new race with entirely new animations for the visage form.

  11. #58751
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Legion laid the groundwork for Mythic+ and world quests / events (like invasions), which are still used today. Just think about BfA and Shadowlands not having Mythic+. That alone was a huge success that they are re-using now for every expansion, because it makes sense. Same can be said about world quests.

    Legion also had a profession revamp that was thrown out of the window just an expansion later, that's pretty much what we can expect from the Dragonflight profession revamp as well. Dragonriding is strictly limited to the Dragon Isles, so I wouldn't call that a new flying system at all. They already said the barriers to bring this to the entire world are massive and would require a ton of work - and for what? Just to have restricted flying everywhere?

    I give you the talent system, that's something for Dragonflight and the future beyond
    pretty sure they said the prof changes were meant to be built upon like the new talent system not just thrown away like the legion changes (wouldn’t call it a revamp), as far as dragon flight goes ya it’s only going to be part of the dragon isle for now but they have been looking to change flying for a while so it’s incredibly likely to be a new base thing, also trying to say it shouldn’t count because it doesn’t apply to old flying zones would be like saying Mythic+ doesn’t count because it’s only legion dungeons onwards.

    Invasions would count as being something legion add I suppose, so assuming they don’t throw away the dragon flight systems theh would both be at 3 new base systems, assuming they don’t add any thing yet to be announced
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  12. #58752
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    But why make the visage form at all if it's just something that a few players will ever toggle on? I know the CHOICES of the visage forms being "new biology" is just to limit it to two races, but the sheer existence of the visage form is a waste of money and effort from the devs if you never ever see it.

    I see your point about mounts, which is a clever way to get around it, but i think that's kind of it.
    It's to sell the fantasy that you are essential of the Dragons Kin, they use visages to mingle with the mortal races why shouldnt their kin?

  13. #58753
    So.... 2 talent trees per month?

  14. #58754
    over 2 months since announcement and so little news.

  15. #58755
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by micwini View Post
    So.... 2 talent trees per month?
    Bold of you to assume we will get 2 a month.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  16. #58756
    Herald of the Titans Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by micwini View Post
    So.... 2 talent trees per month?
    They don't have to show all the talent trees before alpha - the initial tease could have been as much a test of proof of the general design as a preview for the specific classes. But yeah, we had lots of other blizzard news this week but silence on the most important thing ...

  17. #58757
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    Quote Originally Posted by micwini View Post
    So.... 2 talent trees per month?
    Did they even say that they will cyclically release talents? Because from what I remember, they shown those two just to explain the system and the rest was just MMO-C users assumptions.
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  18. #58758
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    They don't have to show all the talent trees before alpha - the initial tease could have been as much a test of proof of the general design as a preview for the specific classes. But yeah, we had lots of other blizzard news this week but silence on the most important thing ...
    They said they would release them before that. Then again, blizzard has always been very prone to just straight up lie.

  19. #58759
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    pretty sure they said the prof changes were meant to be built upon like the new talent system not just thrown away like the legion changes (wouldn’t call it a revamp), as far as dragon flight goes ya it’s only going to be part of the dragon isle for now but they have been looking to change flying for a while so it’s incredibly likely to be a new base thing, also trying to say it shouldn’t count because it doesn’t apply to old flying zones would be like saying Mythic+ doesn’t count because it’s only legion dungeons onwards.

    Invasions would count as being something legion add I suppose, so assuming they don’t throw away the dragon flight systems theh would both be at 3 new base systems, assuming they don’t add any thing yet to be announced
    The "only Dragonflight" thing is just bet hedging. They don't want to say "this is how flying pre-pathfinder will work from now on" because people will lose their shit as always. Instead they present it as an expansion feature and then will gauge how people like it and decide to either leave it in Dragonflight or continue to apply it to every expansion.

    The way that it's set up allows easy expandability: More base models and customization options, additional Dragonriding "talents" or "skills" or whatever the tree/progression is called, etc.

    Even if they decide against carrying it forward, it's likely the parts of it will be cannabalized into other things, similar to how scenarios etc. were reused. I could see them making future dangerous max-level zones like the Maw, but allowing the dragonriding style flight with a specific customizable mount.

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    Quote Originally Posted by micwini View Post
    They said they would release them before that. Then again, blizzard has always been very prone to just straight up lie.
    Blizzard pretty much never "straight up lies". The problem is exactly what is happening here. People project their own "promised" and "they said"s onto statements and then become convinced it's absolute and then freak out when it doesn't happen.

    What was actually said was that they would like to get the talents in front of people for feedback prior to the actual test release.

  20. #58760
    The Lightbringer Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Did they even say that they will cyclically release talents? Because from what I remember, they shown those two just to explain the system and the rest was just MMO-C users assumptions.
    Yeah I think we assumed we might get regular blogs like with Legion but in Legion they had told us they'd actually do blogs and gave us a schedule. Here they told us they might do blogs, gave no schedule and just released something after two months of silence and Soon (no tm) for alpha.

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