Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Nymrohd]

Regarding the 'lack of features' complaint, isn't this really what many people have wanted for years though? WoW at it's core with good zones, dungeons, raids, battlegrounds, arena etc has been the foundation that most people liked about the game. A lot of the time the big 'expansion seller' feature has ended up being the worst thing about the expansion. Vehicle combat in Wotlk? Yeah less said about that the better. Garrisons? Warfronts and islands? Torghast?

I think getting the basics right again will go a long way to setting the game on a good path moving forward. I still think/hope that there will be certain things in DF they just haven't announced but as we get closer to it, maybe they will. People loved Suramar and how that played out for example and that was just a zone with gated questing where we unlocked more and more as time went on. Personally I enjoyed both the withered scenario in Legion and the visions in BFA and that's smaller things you don't necessarily need to test a lot either (if they have something similar).

I honestly have no idea what a majority wants with WoW. Most of them are silent and far more have just left. What we have here is not in any way representative of the potential customer base or even the active customer base of WoW.

I personally felt that many of the features added during expansions had great potential that was often squandered or only met by the end of the expansion. And I think it is unfair to say people hated Garrisons. The problem was never Garrisons, it was that there was nothing else to do outside Garrisons.

[micwini]

This is backwards thinking. The dungeons are not copy pastes of outdoor areas, Siege and Freehold aside, they are dungeons who are designed as dungeons and then implemented into the outdoor world as an area for the sake of immersion since they're intended to be an actual space. If you're going to go that route, even ignoring the multi-wing part, the Auchendoun, SSC and TK dungeons are just copy pastes of their respective outdoor components/ associated raids.

You'd have a pretty hard time convincing me that more work went into throwing existing ethereal assets into mana tombs than went into Siege of Boralus. Even entirely utilizing an existing space, the parts that are modified for the dungeon specifically are higher effort and more unique than the entirety of those wing dungeon sets.

Yes, more work went into mana tombs than siege of boralus. Siege of Boralus has the copy paste layout of the outdoor world (bar some carts blocking certain parts off) and new mobs. Mana tombs is an unique area that is not accessible outside of the dungeon. They do not make the dungeon first and then put it in the outdoor world. That is much more work to glue the dungeon together into the rest of the world. Instead of just building the world and then slicing a piece off to use as a dungeon.

It is very obvious that these dungeons are not really designed to be dungeons from the start. Hence the quick placement of some carts or crates to force you into a linear direction (siege of boralus also the best example here). I could think of a lot more areas that are in the outdoor world, that could easily be copypasted into dungeons. Examples being House of the Chosen and the World boss area in Bastion.

Siege of Boralus (taking your example) is like using the exterior of Black Temple for a dungeon. Its lazy and uninspired. While Auchindoun had 4 dungeons with the same tileset and art, there is still more work put into those than stuff like Freehold or Atal. Or do you think it is more work to copy paste an entire area, than it is to make an entire new area with existing art assets?

Stuff like De Other Side, Sanguine Depths, Underrot, is what they should do more of design wise. These are areas specifically designed for the dungeon and inaccessible outside of the dungeon itself.

[Nymrohd]

Yes, more work went into mana tombs than siege of boralus. Siege of Boralus has the copy paste layout of the outdoor world (bar some carts blocking certain parts off) and new mobs. Mana tombs is an unique area that is not accessible outside of the dungeon. They do not make the dungeon first and then put it in the outdoor world. That is much more work to glue the dungeon together into the rest of the world. Instead of just building the world and then slicing a piece off to use as a dungeon.

It is very obvious that these dungeons are not really designed to be dungeons from the start. Hence the quick placement of some carts or crates to force you into a linear direction (siege of boralus also the best example here). I could think of a lot more areas that are in the outdoor world, that could easily be copypasted into dungeons. Examples being House of the Chosen and the World boss area in Bastion.

Siege of Boralus (taking your example) is like using the exterior of Black Temple for a dungeon. Its lazy and uninspired. While Auchindoun had 4 dungeons with the same tileset and art, there is still more work put into those than stuff like Freehold or Atal. Or do you think it is more work to copy paste an entire area, than it is to make an entire new area with existing art assets?

Stuff like De Other Side, Sanguine Depths, Underrot, is what they should do more of design wise. These are areas specifically designed for the dungeon and inaccessible outside of the dungeon itself.

I understand that it is less work but why is it uninspired?
There are locations in the world where they want to tell a story that is best told through a dungeon. If the location is open to the world it must exist in the world and it should match. The alternative breaks immersion. And repeat visits to the same location to tell an evolving story help with that as long as it is not overused.

[Lady Atia]

Yes, more work went into mana tombs than siege of boralus. Siege of Boralus has the copy paste layout of the outdoor world (bar some carts blocking certain parts off) and new mobs. Mana tombs is an unique area that is not accessible outside of the dungeon. They do not make the dungeon first and then put it in the outdoor world. That is much more work to glue the dungeon together into the rest of the world. Instead of just building the world and then slicing a piece off to use as a dungeon.

It is very obvious that these dungeons are not really designed to be dungeons from the start. Hence the quick placement of some carts or crates to force you into a linear direction (siege of boralus also the best example here). I could think of a lot more areas that are in the outdoor world, that could easily be copypasted into dungeons. Examples being House of the Chosen and the World boss area in Bastion.

Siege of Boralus (taking your example) is like using the exterior of Black Temple for a dungeon. Its lazy and uninspired. While Auchindoun had 4 dungeons with the same tileset and art, there is still more work put into those than stuff like Freehold or Atal. Or do you think it is more work to copy paste an entire area, than it is to make an entire new area with existing art assets?

Stuff like De Other Side, Sanguine Depths, Underrot, is what they should do more of design wise. These are areas specifically designed for the dungeon and inaccessible outside of the dungeon itself.

Dude .... the worst thing about old Dungeon design was that they mysteriously didn't really exist in the world, they magically had space that wasn't even there. That was horrible. The new design where you can actually visit the zone outside of the Dungeon itself is far better for immersion (and useful for roleplay).

Also you are just wrong, because the Dungeons are build to be Dungeons first and part of the zone later - they have to do this for M+ specifically. I can guarantee you Dungeons that do have an outside version are still designed by Dungeon Designers and Dungeon Environment Artists ...

And again, I want to be able to visit the Dungeon in the outside world because that makes it part of the fucking world of warcraft. I couldn't care less for stuff that's only available via the instance because it feels tacked on and fake, and quite frankly, really uninspired.

[micwini]

I understand that it is less work but why is it uninspired?
There are locations in the world where they want to tell a story that is best told through a dungeon. If the location is open to the world it must exist in the world and it should match. The alternative breaks immersion. And repeat visits to the same location to tell an evolving story help with that as long as it is not overused.

Its copy paste. It is way more interesting to have a dangerous area locked of and only doable in a group. That is immersion. The current way also doesnt help with the story. It isnt even clear if the outdoor version is before or after the dungeon. Hell, the outdoor version doesnt even change after your first go in the dungeon. Copy pasting outdoor areas for dungeons is plain lazy. Personally makes me burned out too on the aesthetic since I see the area so often as well.

Dude .... the worst thing about old Dungeon design was that they mysteriously didn't really exist in the world, they magically had space that wasn't even there. That was horrible. The new design where you can actually visit the zone outside of the Dungeon itself is far better for immersion (and useful for roleplay).

Also you are just wrong, because the Dungeons are build to be Dungeons first and part of the zone later - they have to do this for M+ specifically. I can guarantee you Dungeons that do have an outside version are still designed by Dungeon Designers and Dungeon Environment Artists ...

And again, I want to be able to visit the Dungeon in the outside world because that makes it part of the fucking world of warcraft. I couldn't care less for stuff that's only available via the instance because it feels tacked on and fake, and quite frankly, really uninspired.

Didn't know you worked at blizzard. When is the beta coming out?

[Nymrohd]

Its copy paste. It is way more interesting to have a dangerous area locked of and only doable in a group. That is immersion. The current way also doesnt help with the story. It isnt even clear if the outdoor version is before or after the dungeon. Hell, the outdoor version doesnt even change after your first go in the dungeon. Copy pasting outdoor areas for dungeons is plain lazy.

The outdoor versions are not really used for gameplay though, are they? They are just there to fly over (and maybe bring your RP characters there for an event). They are very much meant to be dungeons. E.g. Atal'Dazar is used in a cutscene and then a small part is used in a different scenario (after the dungeon has been run). And I don't see the laziness unless you are saying we have less zones and world space than we once did? Only xpac that is an Outlier on that regard is Wrath and a decent part of Wrath is very much empty space when it comes to being used for gameplay/as content (Crystalsong, most of Icecrown).

[micwini]

The outdoor versions are not really used for gameplay though, are they? They are just there to fly over (and maybe bring your RP characters there for an event). They are very much meant to be dungeons. E.g. Atal'Dazar is used in a cutscene and then a small part is used in a different scenario (after the dungeon has been run). And I don't see the laziness unless you are saying we have less zones and world space than we once did? Only xpac that is an Outlier on that regard is Wrath and a decent part of Wrath is very much empty space when it comes to being used for gameplay/as content (Crystalsong, most of Icecrown).

I think an example of what you mean is plaguefall. It exists but barely accessed for world content, so I'll give you that, you have a point there. But stuff like Freehold, Halls of Atonement and Upper mechagon? Packed with world content and visited almost daily, outside of the dungeon. And yes we do have less zones than we used to. They are also smaller in size. Especially Legion, where everything was cramped on top of that as well. Some empty space needs to exist. The worlds need to breathe. Not every m² needs to have mobs or a building or a chest.

[Nymrohd]

I think an example of what you mean is plaguefall. It exists but barely accessed for world content, so I'll give you that, you have a point there. But stuff like Freehold, Halls of Atonement and Upper mechagon? Packed with world content and visited almost daily, outside of the dungeon. And yes we do have less zones than we used to. They are also smaller in size. Especially Legion, where everything was cramped on top of that as well. Some empty space needs to exist. The worlds need to breathe. Not every m² needs to have mobs or a building or a chest.

Atal'dazar was a solid example as well, which is what I used. Freehold absolutely made sense as a dungeon. You enter there and quest covertly, barely escape, go back to the dungeon which again seems to be about taking down bosses but not killing everything in the area and then you can do repeat runs with world quests that don't use the story from either part. Halls of Atonement is a mixed bag (it does have areas unique to the instance) and I'll agree it is not immersive Upper Mechagon does make sense; adventuring in the Mechagon zone is meant to precede running the dungeon.

[Hitei]

Yes, more work went into mana tombs than siege of boralus. Siege of Boralus has the copy paste layout of the outdoor world (bar some carts blocking certain parts off) and new mobs.

Ah yes, "some carts". And, you know, a section of the city remodeled into ruins to make a boss arena, bridges broken down into destroyed versions, ruin, destruction, and shipwrecks everywhere

I mean, there are as many individual objects in each "lol carts" barrier as there are objects in entire fucking rooms in Mana tombs, and Viq'Goth's arena alone probably has more polygons than the entirety of the floor, wall and ceiling terrain in MT. But no, you're right. Siege is the low effort one.

Man, why can't Blizzard go back to their peak ambition of copy pasting the same fucking bone and rock piles, spider webs and sarcophogus models into every room of four 'different' instances. Like the sheer amount of creativity and effort that went into making """""" an entire new area with existing art assets"""""".

How could NuBlizz even hope to compete?

[micwini]

Atal'dazar was a solid example as well, which is what I used. Freehold absolutely made sense as a dungeon. You enter there and quest covertly, barely escape, go back to the dungeon which again seems to be about taking down bosses but not killing everything in the area and then you can do repeat runs with world quests that don't use the story from either part. Halls of Atonement is a mixed bag (it does have areas unique to the instance) and I'll agree it is not immersive Upper Mechagon does make sense; adventuring in the Mechagon zone is meant to precede running the dungeon.

Yes storywise Mechagon is obvious, but would have been cooler if the inside of mechagon was the 2 wing dungeon, so we could see more of the city. Instead of using the copy pasted outside bit as the first half.

Ah yes, "some carts". And, you know, a section of the city remodeled into ruins to make a boss arena, bridges broken down into destroyed versions, ruin, destruction, and shipwrecks everywhere

I mean, there are as many individual objects in each "lol carts" barrier as there are objects in entire fucking rooms in Mana tombs, and Viq'Goth's arena alone probably has more polygons than the entirety of the floor, wall and ceiling terrain in MT. But no, you're right. Siege is the low effort one.

Man, why can't Blizzard go back to their peak ambition of copy pasting the same fucking bone and rock piles, spider webs and sarcophogus models into every room of four 'different' instances. Like the sheer amount of creativity and effort that went into making """""" an entire new area with existing art assets"""""".

How could NuBlizz even hope to compete?

Don't compare the polygons. Literally more than 10 years between that...
And yes, those carts/ruined bridges whatever are just modified already existing assets, just like those bonepiles you are so fond about. Designing a layout, filling it up with props, etc. Is still more work than just copy pasting an area and adding some props afterwards. The only thing that they put more work in now than back then, is the actual mechanics on the mobs/bosses. But talking purely about the art: Yes, less work is being put into it.

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I've been getting hardcore into GW2 lately and just went through Path of Fire over the last few days and I don't think I mentally processed just how pathetically small WoW zones are now until going through Elona. Zones there may have loading screens but they feel a shit ton more like an actual world than the arcade design of post MoP WoW zones because of the size and the dead space and little nooks and crannies all over just to exist there because they would exist in that world

Seems like they are doing that with dragonflight as far as we've seen so far. So that sounds good.

[Makabreska]

Don't compare the polygons. Literally more than 10 years between that...
And yes, those carts/ruined bridges whatever are just modified already existing assets, just like those bonepiles you are so fond about. Designing a layout, filling it up with props, etc. Is still more work than just copy pasting an area and adding some props afterwards. The only thing that they put more work in now than back then, is the actual mechanics on the mobs/bosses. But talking purely about the art: Yes, less work is being put into it.

You know, what you said a while ago is a perfect answer to post above.

Didn't know you worked at blizzard. When is the beta coming out?

[micwini]

You know, what you said a while ago is a perfect answer to post above.

There is a difference between claiming something as a truth with 0 knowledge (like the guy I quoted did). Or making a statement based on observation (which I did). Better luck next time <3

[Makabreska]

There is a difference between claiming something as a truth with 0 knowledge (like the guy I quoted did). Or making a statement based on observation (which I did). Better luck next time <3

So you present your observation, while disregarding his? Doesn't work like that. How much knowledge do you have about dungeon designing in WoW to claim your statements are superior? Because if you have none, and he has none, then your "didn't know you work at Blizz" instantly falls flat and you are both on equal footing.

[Lady Atia]

There is a difference between claiming something as a truth with 0 knowledge (like the guy I quoted did). Or making a statement based on observation (which I did). Better luck next time <3

First, I'm not a guy. Secondly, Ion said in an interview that the reason we didn't get older Dungeons via M+ is that they were designed differently than the current era ones which are made with M+ in mind. That alone would mean that no, they aren't designing the open world zones first and than thinking about which sub-zones to turn into a dungeon, but the other way around - the dungeons first, and than they craft the things around them (which are also designed to fit the questing and world quest flow btw).

Your thinking that they cut costs by just picking random areas and turning them into a dungeon is absurd.

[micwini]

So you present your observation, while disregarding his? Doesn't work like that. How much knowledge do you have about dungeon designing in WoW to claim your statements are superior? Because if you have none, and he has none, then your "didn't know you work at Blizz" instantly falls flat and you are both on equal footing.

She claimed that the copy paste dungeons are made as dungeon first and then added to the zone. Thats it. That was the claim. No source, nothing to support it.
I stated that in essence: Copy pasting an outdoor area and adding props is less work than making a completely new and unique area while adding new props. This is a fact. Unless you know a way to make new things faster than copypasting something that already exists.

I made an observation, she claimed something as a truth without supporting it. I based my claims on observations, because I indeed have no knowledge of dungeon design in wow. Since I supported my claims with observations and he made a claim without any support at all, yes my claim is superior until she comes with a proper counterargument. However, I wouldn't expect it to, since her post seemed to be full of emotion. Just like the latest reply from Hitei. The moment people make emotional or cynical statements in a discussion, they've run out of actual arguments for their point, in my eyes.

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First, I'm not a guy. Secondly, Ion said in an interview that the reason we didn't get older Dungeons via M+ is that they were designed differently than the current era ones which are made with M+ in mind. That alone would mean that no, they aren't designing the open world zones first and than thinking about which sub-zones to turn into a dungeon, but the other way around - the dungeons first, and than they craft the things around them (which are also designed to fit the questing and world quest flow btw).

Your thinking that they cut costs by just picking random areas and turning them into a dungeon is absurd.

The point about older dungeons not being fit for M+ was because of the mechanical aspect. Mechanics barely existed and would be way too easy for nowadays players. The last sentence is, again, just an emotional blurt without any substance.

Sorry for referring to you as a guy, that is just what I assume whenever I find myself talking to strangers on the internet

[Makabreska]

He claimed that the copy paste dungeons are made as dungeon first and then added to the zone. Thats it. That was the claim. No source, nothing to support it.
I stated that in essence: Copy pasting an outdoor area and adding props is less work than making a completely new and unique area while adding new props. This is a fact. Unless you know a way to make new things faster than copypasting something that already exists.

I made an observation, he claimed something as a truth without supporting it. I based my claims on observations, because I indeed have no knowledge of dungeon design in wow. Since I supported my claims with observations and he made a claim without any support at all, yes my claim is superior until he comes with a proper counterargument. However, I wouldn't expect it to, since his post seemed to be full of emotion. Just like the latest reply from Hitei. The moment people make emotional or cynical statements in a discussion, they've run out of actual arguments for their point, in my eyes.

Nope. You are presenting here a textbook "I know better while not knowing anything" attitude. You say you know nothing about development, yet you still claim your opinions as facts. Your observations aren't superior here and not even supported by any screenshots or anything.

[Valysar]

So, DF is releasing this year, and alpha hasn't started yet, seems logical in fact, there is not so many things to test except the basics, no borrowed powers = time saving.

[micwini]

Nope. You are presenting here a textbook "I know better while not knowing anything" attitude. You say you know nothing about development, yet you still claim your opinions as facts. Your observations aren't superior here and not even supported by any screenshots or anything.

Observations are facts. I make claims based on observations, so they are facts. People can go out for themselves to look. The evidence exists in the (ingame) world. I'm gonna stop discussing with you, since you aren't actually adding anything to the discussion. They only thing you are trying is to get some kind of "gotcha" on me for whatever reason (which you haven't managed to do so unfortunately).

[Makabreska]

Observations are facts. I make claims based on observations, so they are facts. People can go out for themselves to look. The evidence exists in the (ingame) world. I'm gonna stop discussing with you, since you aren't actually adding anything to the discussion. They only thing you are trying is to get some kind of "gotcha" on me for whatever reason (which you haven't managed to do so unfortunately).

When the urge to be right in some random internet argument is so strong...

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Observations are facts...thats a new one.