1. #58861
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    From the Sylvanas novel, he gave Sylvie what's essentially a prophecy that would get her to his side.
    Without telling her he caused all of it

    Honestly that was his biggest play and it highlighted how he can use his influence to be clever

  2. #58862
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    The amount of worlds they burned was probably not nearly as much to the entire universe suddenly not giving away any souls so no the drought didn't start when the Burning Crusade began, thats faulty.
    I was under the impression that Azeroth was pretty much the last world left. Everything else is either destroyed or awash in fel.

  3. #58863
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    He's kind of right though. The fate of worlds in the WarCraft cosmos is depicted as pretty bleak. Either Sargeras destroyed them or the Void consumed them. But either way it should be robbing the Shadowlands of anima.

    Which would take a looong ass time because Sargeras can't just easily travel to other worlds nor can the Legion do it fast. No drought would actually happen for hundreds or even hundred thousands of years. I'm probably being conservative with how much time it would take. Also right now the Void doesn't seem to be doing too mucha at the moment minus Azeroth and who knows if they are succeeding or not but that can be changed as soon as Dragonflight.


    I was under the impression that Azeroth was pretty much the last world left. Everything else is either destroyed or awash in fel.
    Its just an assumption, its not outright stated to be the case and well we can feel weird about the cosmic part but looking at reality there could be hundreds of planets and its not feasible the Legion conquered them all.

    I doubt Blizzard would just say "only Azeroth has life on it." I mean they could but that might give them less expansion or world building opportunities.
    Last edited by Aeluron Lightsong; 2022-06-19 at 08:55 PM.
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  4. #58864
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I was under the impression that Azeroth was pretty much the last world left. Everything else is either destroyed or awash in fel.
    I thought it was just the last world soul and not the last planet with life. It may have been a retcon though. Didn't TBC imply there were world with other life because the Naaru have a "prison"? Though I'm not sure much thought went into the lore since they did have a gnome lol.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  5. #58865
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    I thought it was just the last world soul and not the last planet with life. It may have been a retcon though. Didn't TBC imply there were world with other life because the Naaru have a "prison"? Though I'm not sure much thought went into the lore since they did have a gnome lol.
    Consider the known size of our universe. It's not remotely realistic the Legion actually purged a meaningful percentage of it; it was pretty much a huge waste of time. Sargeras plan with the other Titan makes far more sense in that context, he was basically running the fire-and-blade purges as a distraction for the demons and his enemies while he was working on the real plan to end things, knowing that he could never finish the job by hand in any reasonable timeframe.

  6. #58866
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Consider the known size of our universe. It's not remotely realistic the Legion actually purged a meaningful percentage of it; it was pretty much a huge waste of time. Sargeras plan with the other Titan makes far more sense in that context, he was basically running the fire-and-blade purges as a distraction for the demons and his enemies while he was working on the real plan to end things, knowing that he could never finish the job by hand in any reasonable timeframe.
    Okay. But without Sargeras or Zovaal they have no goal. Even the most high-ranking demons give fuck all about corrupting or undoing the universe or would even know how. Almost all their powers came directly from Sargeras so not only do they have no goal, they have no power.

  7. #58867
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Okay. But without Sargeras or Zovaal they have no goal. Even the most high-ranking demons give fuck all about corrupting or undoing the universe or would even know how. Almost all their powers came directly from Sargeras so not only do they have no goal, they have no power.
    I don't think you even remotely understood what you're responding to.

  8. #58868
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Okay. But without Sargeras or Zovaal they have no goal. Even the most high-ranking demons give fuck all about corrupting or undoing the universe or would even know how. Almost all their powers came directly from Sargeras so not only do they have no goal, they have no power.
    We know that isn't true because Demons had power even before Sargeras was "corrupted". They might not have been able to stand against a Titan (or two) but they still had their own power and only became less of a threat because they were imprisoned. It is strange how Elementals and Demons share similar traits in both "respawning" and both being imprisoned by Titans (or their keepers).

    Sargeras just empowered them further when he freed them from the prison he created. They are still powerful with out him around even if his boon has faded. Remember he isn't dead either so no telling if it has faded or can't be replicated on "new" demons. Wowpedia also has speculation about "Fel Lords". I don't think it has ever been clarified if those are "cosmic force leaders" or a reference to Void Lords since demons and the void mix often.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-06-20 at 12:56 AM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  9. #58869
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    We know that isn't true because Demons had power even before Sargeras was "corrupted". They might not have been able to stand against a Titan (or two) but they still had their own power and only became less of a threat because they were imprisoned. It is strange how Elementals and Demons share similar traits in both "respawning" and both being imprisoned by Titans (or their keepers).

    Sargeras just empowered them further when he freed them from the prison he created. They are still powerful with out him around even if his boon has faded. Remember he isn't dead either so no telling if it has faded or can't be replicated on "new" demons. Wowpedia also has speculation about "Fel Lords". I don't think it has ever been clarified if those are "cosmic force leaders" or a reference to Void Lords since demons and the void mix often.
    If that's so why did the invasion instantly end the moment Sargeras was imprisoned?

    There's so many references to "Sargeras' power" any innate power demons had beforehand was basically a racial ability: Hardly a substantial threat to any planet.

  10. #58870
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    If that's so why did the invasion instantly end the moment Sargeras was imprisoned?
    Because we defeated the Burning Legion? They didn't just cease to exist however so groups can still exist or they are forming their own "natural" empires. They just aren't on a crusade anymore or have a known central leadership. Demons existed prior to the Burning Legion and exist afterwards.

    Remember the original reason why Sargeras was hunting them was because they were wrecking Titan ordered things. You can't do that if you have little to no power of your own. So your are wrong about them not being a threat to any planet.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  11. #58871
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    If that's so why did the invasion instantly end the moment Sargeras was imprisoned?
    Because Sargeras was the one who ordered the invasion and was the central command structure for the Legion, along with a bunch of other people killed during Legion. The portal was also closed.

    The average Pit Lord or Succubus probably has little desire to march straight to their own death invading easily the most well-defended, well-equipped world in known existence. The Legion was obsessively trying to invade it because Sargeras was obsessed with Azeroth as both a potential tool and the most dangerous potential asset of the Void.

  12. #58872
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Because Sargeras was the one who ordered the invasion and was the central command structure for the Legion, along with a bunch of other people killed during Legion. The portal was also closed.

    The average Pit Lord or Succubus probably has little desire to march straight to their own death invading easily the most well-defended, well-equipped world in known existence. The Legion was obsessively trying to invade it because Sargeras was obsessed with Azeroth as both a potential tool and the most dangerous potential asset of the Void.
    Especially when their quick res is no more.
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  13. #58873
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    snip
    VERY good summary. The Jailer basically threw a lot of plots at the wall and just waited which one sticks.
    Could Blizz have introduced him in a more sophisticated way? Of course. But he also involves (from my point of view) a lot of so called "retconning". They didn't exactly change past events but made him being involved with them. And of course he appears a bit put-on because I guess the first time they thought about him was Legion development.
    Do I like the premise of someone scheming in the background? Hell, yea!
    Do I like the implementation of the Jailer? Not so much. But I can live with it.

  14. #58874
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExiHext View Post
    VERY good summary. The Jailer basically threw a lot of plots at the wall and just waited which one sticks.
    Could Blizz have introduced him in a more sophisticated way? Of course. But he also involves (from my point of view) a lot of so called "retconning". They didn't exactly change past events but made him being involved with them. And of course he appears a bit put-on because I guess the first time they thought about him was Legion development.
    Do I like the premise of someone scheming in the background? Hell, yea!
    Do I like the implementation of the Jailer? Not so much. But I can live with it.
    Did he even do it himself? Or did Denathrius throw a lot of plots at the wall and also alert the Jailer of great opportunities in Azeroth? I think the Jailer was only really active in the plot from the formation of the Helm onwards.

    And really the true success was Argus and that was a Nathrezim plot (and thus more likely a plot by Denathrius).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    I thought it was just the last world soul and not the last planet with life. It may have been a retcon though. Didn't TBC imply there were world with other life because the Naaru have a "prison"? Though I'm not sure much thought went into the lore since they did have a gnome lol.
    How could we know it is the last world soul though? It is made very clear that the Titans had no way to divine if and where world souls might exist. They could only identify world souls by proximity. So if Sargeras believed Azeroth was the last world soul he either understood something fundamental about how world souls are formed or he actually had explored the known universe (by himself, by taking into account the findings of the other Titans he had in his control and by the Legion's efforts). Or it was simply propaganda fed to demons by Sargeras and his inner council.

    I think it is propaganda. The evidence being Elunaria.
    Also this does not mean there is no life in the universe. Just no life on planets. Given the existence of biodomes from the Ethereals, life could survive without planets through artificial means.

    Also I just don't think it makes sense for the Titans to be completely unaware of the other planes. Their very nature was to explore and to order. It seemed so weird that Norgannon could control time but he did not know the Void exists. The fact that they could create the Emerald Dream suggests they understood at the very least how Death and Life worked. And even if they did not know more, Sargeras should definitely have sought (and had his trusted Eredar search as well) for information on the other planes of existence. If we could form portals to Oribos, Kil'jaeden and Archimonde should be able to do so as well. Of course it could just be a plot hole.
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2022-06-20 at 11:20 AM.

  15. #58875
    It's june 2024. We still haven't seen the 2nd set of Dragonflight talent trees. At least 9.2.5.5.5 is on its way and should release soon for season 6. I still can't believe people voted for Seat to be included in the dungeon pool, but it is what it is.

  16. #58876
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    How could we know it is the last world soul though?
    We exist outside the lore and are privy to information that inside actors might not know? Also two quotes call Azeroth the final Titan and exist inside the lore. Illidan in the Temple of Anguish and Wrathion when eating the heart of the Thunder King. So there is a lot of interpretation in that statement and the meaning of final hasn't explicitly been stated.


    "Illidan Stormrage says: Should they fall to darkness, Sargeras will have the power he needs to claim the final titan." https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Tem...Anguish#Quotes

    "Wrathion says: WE HAVE FALLEN. WE MUST REBUILD THE FINAL TITAN. DO NOT FORGET." https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Hea..._(quest)#Notes

    It is also strange for you to suggest Azeroth is the last world left but suggesting life lives on on alternatives to planets. That is just an arbitrary distinction. We also know that Azeroth isn't the last planet because Star Augur Etraeus showed us at least 3 planets full of Old God life. The Legion Invasions also took us to random worlds to stop Legion efforts to gain resources.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-06-20 at 04:26 PM.
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  17. #58877
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    We exist outside the lore and are privy to information that inside actors might not know? Also two quotes call Azeroth the final Titan and exist inside the lore. Illidan in the Temple of Anguish and Wrathion when eating the heart of the Thunder King. So there is a lot of interpretation in that statement and the meaning of final hasn't explicitly been stated.


    "Illidan Stormrage says: Should they fall to darkness, Sargeras will have the power he needs to claim the final titan." https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Tem...Anguish#Quotes

    "Wrathion says: WE HAVE FALLEN. WE MUST REBUILD THE FINAL TITAN. DO NOT FORGET." https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Hea..._(quest)#Notes

    It is also strange for you to suggest Azeroth is the last world left but suggesting life lives on on alternatives to planets. That is just an arbitrary distinction. We also know that Azeroth isn't the last planet because Star Augur Etraeus showed us at least 3 planets full of Old God life. The Legion Invasions also took us to random worlds to stop Legion efforts to gain resources.
    Honestly I am not suggesting anything, just saying there are multiple views. All the lore that claims Azeroth is the last Titan comes from the other Titans who cannot possibly know this since they were confined for ages and never explored the entire universe; Sargeras found Argus after all and they did not even know about Argus when he killed them or Illidan who knows it because . . . well he doesn't know it but it's on brand to assume.

    And we know there are worlds outside Legion control (Elunaria), life outside planets (remnants of Ka'resh). As to why life outside planets might be an important distinction; that is because Sargeras would not care about them. He wanted to blow up planets because world souls create planets around them. He could not get to each one personally to tell if there was a world soul (though it shouldn't be needed; whatever ritual Magni did should be enough to divine if a world has a soul and then to address it; it's pretty much a plot hole for him to destroy the entire universe when he just needed to find a way to get his world traveling mortals to do the same).

    My original point though was that the burning crusade was catastrophic for the Shadowlands because it deprived them of massive amounts of anima. Ofc it wasn't as bad as the drought but they must have been experiencing ever declining anima for millenia before the drought.

  18. #58878
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Honestly I am not suggesting anything, just saying there are multiple views. All the lore that claims Azeroth is the last Titan comes from the other Titans who cannot possibly know this since they were confined for ages and never explored the entire universe; Sargeras found Argus after all and they did not even know about Argus when he killed them or Illidan who knows it because . . . well he doesn't know it but it's on brand to assume.
    This is true we only know what other characters have told us like Wrathion who is just regurgitating Aman'thul.

    One of N'zoths whispers is "She is not the last but the first." and in the Folk & Fairytale novel it is said Azeroth was fighting something before needing to go to sleep in order to recover. There is a lot we don't know about how world souls come to be so the order they wake up in may not matter.

  19. #58879
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Honestly I am not suggesting anything, just saying there are multiple views. All the lore that claims Azeroth is the last Titan comes from the other Titans who cannot possibly know this since they were confined for ages and never explored the entire universe
    So Wrathion and Illidan are titans now? Lmao. You are suggesting things because you are claiming there are multiple views. How can that be the case if you are also not suggesting something? The audio drama "A Thousand Years of War" also implies the Titans knew about Argus as buildings and architecture was built similar to those on Azeroth. While it is possible that Sargeras had those built the more likely conclusion is that Argus was visited and ordered by the Titans.

    And we know there are worlds outside Legion control (Elunaria), life outside planets (remnants of Ka'resh).
    So then your original point is wrong because you said you thought Azeroth was the last planet when you just stated Elunaria exists as a planet. Strange isn't that? The Burning Legion wouldn't have deprived anima from the Shadowlands because life still exists elsewhere and not all souls killed by the Demons are used to power Fel magic/machines. You also said Sargeras wouldn't have cared about other places with life so they can surely provide plenty of anima to the shadowlands, right?
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-06-20 at 07:42 PM.
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  20. #58880
    The Lightbringer Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So Wrathion and Illidan are titans now? Lmao.
    Wrathion's quote came immediately after he took Aman'thul's essence from Ra'den, so yes, it was inspired by a Titan. As for Illidan, we have no idea how he came into the idea that Azeroth is the Final Titan. How does he even know Azeroth is a Titan?

    Seriously people, the point is discussion, not debate and antagonism.

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