Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Makabreska]

Observations are facts. I make claims based on observations, so they are facts. People can go out for themselves to look. The evidence exists in the (ingame) world. I'm gonna stop discussing with you, since you aren't actually adding anything to the discussion. They only thing you are trying is to get some kind of "gotcha" on me for whatever reason (which you haven't managed to do so unfortunately).

When the urge to be right in some random internet argument is so strong...

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Observations are facts...thats a new one.

[shoc]

Observations are facts...thats a new one.

Lmao I thought I was on the Flat Earth Theory forum for a second there

[Nyel]

Dragonflight doesn't need some arbitraty points to encourage you or even force to do some content. Some dungeons could be gated behind X questline. Same with profession talent. For sure many places will be gated behind dragon riding.

And for sure many OPTIONAL stuff will be there. It's Blizzard job to show people that there is content in the world, now it's almost hidden.

The problem here is not the content, it's the non-existing progression for doing said content. Dragonflight doesn't need arbitrary progression, but it needs some kind of progression. Right now, with the recent status quo of information, that doesn't exist. And it will be a major, a major problem.

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And what did LK bring more than wod ? Glyphs ? Those were glorified spell upgrade.
DK but you said it's not content.

The problem with WoD is that you only had raids and that's it and you spent your whole life in the garrison.

In DF you'll have raids, m+, world quests + dailies, world exploration + content and prolly other stuff.

i dunno what else you want lol.

There's a reason why I mention WoD and not WotLK or earlier expansions. Blizzard's design approach was different. And even then WotLK added - yes - Glyphs and new talents. It still makes no sense to use this very outdated expansion concepts because Blizzard's focus has shifted drastically from back then to now.

[Berkilak]

Observations are facts...thats a new one.

I mean... observations are facts. The conclusions drawn from those facts are not necessarily factual, however.

[Nyel]

Regarding the 'lack of features' complaint, isn't this really what many people have wanted for years though? WoW at it's core with good zones, dungeons, raids, battlegrounds, arena etc has been the foundation that most people liked about the game. A lot of the time the big 'expansion seller' feature has ended up being the worst thing about the expansion. Vehicle combat in Wotlk? Yeah less said about that the better. Garrisons? Warfronts and islands? Torghast?

I think getting the basics right again will go a long way to setting the game on a good path moving forward. I still think/hope that there will be certain things in DF they just haven't announced but as we get closer to it, maybe they will. People loved Suramar and how that played out for example and that was just a zone with gated questing where we unlocked more and more as time went on. Personally I enjoyed both the withered scenario in Legion and the visions in BFA and that's smaller things you don't necessarily need to test a lot either (if they have something similar).

People wanted back to the roots, not "no features at all". And people disliked borrowed power, which is a legitimate concern. That doesn't mean you should stop character progression completely you reach max level. And that doesn't mean that you should stop trying to create other kinds of content, even if your previous versions (Warfronts, IE etc.) were disliked. They could have gathered all the feedback and make something... I don't know, good? Yet they choose not to do anything in that regard. The lack of ambition is the problem with Dragonflight, not the less-is-more or back-to-the-roots design approach.

[Dioporco]

Oh no people spend their money one something they enjoy. The only problematic people are those that hate on Blizzard, and the people that enjoy their products, endlessly. Find something you enjoy rather then crapping on something others enjoy.

THEY ENJOY

a pair of wings that will be ignored in 1 month and a +1 to add in the random mount macro.


meanwhile instead of waiting to see how it will be the game, swipe immediately like a drug addict.

[Nyel]

I've been getting hardcore into GW2 lately and just went through Path of Fire over the last few days and I don't think I mentally processed just how pathetically small WoW zones are now until going through Elona. Zones there may have loading screens but they feel a shit ton more like an actual world than the arcade design of post MoP WoW zones because of the size and the dead space and little nooks and crannies all over just to exist there because they would exist in that world

I'm playing GW2 again since two weeks and that game is a blast compared to WoW. Alone with the mount system I'm having so much fun because they make sense in the world because the world was build around it. Same with the glider you get in the first expansion. Another thing is how Anet achieved to bring players back to old zones while still rewarding them. At max level. Something Blizzard seems uncapable of doing. While vertical progression in GW2 pretty much sucks compared to WoW, its horizontal progression and world building is so much better than everything in WoW.

[Nyel]

So, DF is releasing this year, and alpha hasn't started yet, seems logical in fact, there is not so many things to test except the basics, no borrowed powers = time saving.

It really is like that. The only thing that requires testing is the open world, the dungeons, the raid(s) and Evoker. Talent trees don't require any testing at all because most stuff is just push and shove talents around (that 99,9% of them already exist makes it even easier), make them exclusive or lower their throughput. It's pretty much just number tweaking. Imagine Covenants compared to that, having entire "talent trees" designed for classes for each Covenant was so so so so so much more stuff to test than this.

[micwini]

It really is like that. The only thing that requires testing is the open world, the dungeons, the raid(s) and Evoker. Talent trees don't require any testing at all because most stuff is just push and shove talents around (that 99,9% of them already exist makes it even easier), make them exclusive or lower their throughput. It's pretty much just number tweaking. Imagine Covenants compared to that, having entire "talent trees" designed for classes for each Covenant was so so so so so much more stuff to test than this.

I wish I was as positive. It would probably be fine based on this, but beta would have to start like... now. Getting the balance right on talents and also the new class is still very important, even if its less work than the 50 systems BFA and SL had.

[Draco-Onis]

I wish I was as positive. It would probably be fine based on this, but beta would have to start like... now. Getting the balance right on talents and also the new class is still very important, even if its less work than the 50 systems BFA and SL had.

If you want to be positive, world of warcraft being so awful has opened me up to a lot of new better games. If dragonflight is a horrible / half baked mess then more people will leave the game to try new things which may in the future force WOW to change. I am just dumbfounded at this point at anyone giving them pre-orders when taking their track record into account.

[Khaza-R]

I consider myself fairly critical of the game but “lack
of features complaint” is so frustrating to me. For two expansions now people have complained they wasted resources of unpopular features like IE or Torghast.

Now (hopefully) they are putting the effort into persistent systems like professions, new travel mechanics, talents and a new class. Features that should persist and still be relevant after Dragonflight. As all as they don’t screw it up, the refocused effort should be fantastic in the long run and how they should really design new content in the future

[ExiHext]

So, DF is releasing this year, and alpha hasn't started yet, seems logical in fact, there is not so many things to test except the basics, no borrowed powers = time saving.

Can we finally stop pretending that no borrowed power means not much testing required? That's nonsense.

We only have a little bit more than five months left for testing. In a normal alpha/beta cycle that would be far too little time. Assuming they did a lot of testing internally the time would be enough but do you really want to play classes in the state Blizz releases them upon us from their internal testing? Oh boy, the tears on the official forums...

[Berkilak]

I consider myself fairly critical of the game but “lack
of features complaint” is so frustrating to me. For two expansions now people have complained they wasted resources of unpopular features like IE or Torghast.

Now (hopefully) they are putting the effort into persistent systems like professions, new travel mechanics, talents and a new class. Features that should persist and still be relevant after Dragonflight. As all as they don’t screw it up, the refocused effort should be fantastic in the long run and how they should really design new content in the future

Likewise. I will take a so-called "feature light" expansion if it means that we can stop reinventing several wheels every expansion and calling that repackaged content "features." Especially when those wheels need three patches to get rounded enough to be useable.

Having a foundation to build on is infinitely preferable to the alternative.

[Makorus]

I'm playing GW2 again since two weeks and that game is a blast compared to WoW. Alone with the mount system I'm having so much fun because they make sense in the world because the world was build around it. Same with the glider you get in the first expansion. Another thing is how Anet achieved to bring players back to old zones while still rewarding them. At max level. Something Blizzard seems uncapable of doing. While vertical progression in GW2 pretty much sucks compared to WoW, its horizontal progression and world building is so much better than everything in WoW.

GW2s writing is worse than WoWs will ever be, and while the way the story is conveyed is miles better (and it has better story moments as well i.e. the whole Kralkatorik arc as well as all the non-filler in EoD), it's even worse than WoW in terms of asspulls. Dragonvoid and all. No consistency either./

Horizontal progression sucks as well, because unless you swipe, most cosmetics just suck ass, you can't get any other mount skins and Raids/Fractals/Dungeons are abandoned. And don't even get me started on the whole "Oh, but you can buy gems " Yeah, sure, dead on, let me just farm gold at sweatshop rates to get 50 Gems.

GW2 is an example of why I don't want a "Oh, there's stuff going on all over Azeroth!" because it turns into a schedule. GW2 isn't a game at this point, it's a "tick the checkbox" simulator. Yep, done my four strikes. Yep, bought my Antique Stones. Yep, done Tequatl and all the other world bosses this week. Oh darn, I still need to do Dragonstorm so I can get a chance at my 0.0000000000000001% infusion!

[Zantera]

People wanted back to the roots, not "no features at all". And people disliked borrowed power, which is a legitimate concern. That doesn't mean you should stop character progression completely you reach max level. And that doesn't mean that you should stop trying to create other kinds of content, even if your previous versions (Warfronts, IE etc.) were disliked. They could have gathered all the feedback and make something... I don't know, good? Yet they choose not to do anything in that regard. The lack of ambition is the problem with Dragonflight, not the less-is-more or back-to-the-roots design approach.

How is what's announced with DF any lesser than lets say Classic, TBC or Wotlk?

[Revamp Man]

Likewise. I will take a so-called "feature light" expansion if it means that we can stop reinventing several wheels every expansion and calling that repackaged content "features." Especially when those wheels need three patches to get rounded enough to be useable.

Having a foundation to build on is infinitely preferable to the alternative.

Why launch a game with 3 half baked features when you can just introduce those features in a patch fully polished. DF is going to be a much better expansion in terms of character upkeep.

I can't wait to actually play my alts and not have to farm for weeks to get an ability working with a piece of gear

[Dracullus]

Can we finally stop pretending that no borrowed power means not much testing required? That's nonsense.

It's no about that. It needs testing, but it's also 'safe' and not controversial. Most stuff in DF won't cause uproar that cause dev watercooler that cause new iteration of system that cause bigger or smaller uproar that cause dev watercooler... it could last month like with soulbinds.

Only thing that has potential for that is dragon riding, Blizzard could came out with something grindy and stupid here that will require more iterations. But for example I think testing stuff like new renown style reputations will be easy.

Another thing is that Blizzard were always far from efficient during Alpha/Beta, in Legion it took months to even launch all specs. So there is room to improve. We will see, without first few Alpha builds we can't really judge.

[rhorle]

What specifically you are considering 'content' from the Garrison? The profession mat farm? The hunting down building upgrades and stuff? The mounts?As you've pointed out, "Order Hall and Covenant" content-wise are still in, just not named that. Renown is renown and there are quest lines attached to the Dragonflight version of renown based on you working deeper into the faction. (read: campaigns).

It is obvious what content garrisons, order halls, and covenants added. I'm not sure you honestly don't know so I don't think I need to actually list out all of the content provided by those things. I've also never said order hall and covenant stuff is still in. Even Blizzard hasn't said that it is. All they said was that Renown is being used in place of reputation for main factions. They said this is so they can reward better/faster rather then locking everything behind friendly, revered, exalted, etc. That isn't "covenant and order hall" content in the slightest.

We don't know what Dragonriding will cover so it is silly to say that it will even come close to the mission table. You even basically say it isn't the mission table while still trying to cram it into that void. Racing has been done before. Puzzles have been done before. As you say they seem to be basing it similar to zerith mortis which is covenant agnostic. There isn't a central dump of content related to and there just to support a Covenant, Order Hall, or Garrison like we've seen in the past. Hence why I said it might be more like the boat in BfA which had little content attached to it and could have been removed with no real effect on the game or quests.

Of course Dragonriding will offer content and things to do. But will that be as expansive as systems in the past? Or will it just be an expanded Netherwing Ledge and Cloud Serpent quest hub?

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That doesn't mean you should stop character progression completely you reach max level.

The problem with that is you either have borrowed power or bloat. You have to pick one. Will the community that hates borrowed power be happy with being forced to grind for that progression to be competitive? Will the next expansion reset values or will it be required to grind out that stuff? Will catch up mechanics exist to give those who don't play much a free boost or will they fall further behind because they haven't progressed?

There are problems with the eternal character progression systems that come into play if you don't reset it. It is also weird for you to say that they could have gathered all the feedback and made something good. What if they did gather the feedback and that is exactly what they did? Made something based on it? This is the problem when people use such general arguments about feedback or Blizzard listening. They have listened. They have used feedback. They just didn't do exactly what you want so they are somehow still bad.

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THEY ENJOY

If they know they will enjoy the game anyways then what is wrong with them spending their money now vs closer to launch? You keep insulting people simply because they have a different opinion of the product then you do. It is their money. Let them spend it how they want to, right? Are some addicted? Probably. Do majority likely know what they enjoy and made an informed decision? Certainly. Will some regret it? Likely.

[Nymrohd]

Why launch a game with 3 half baked features when you can just introduce those features in a patch fully polished. DF is going to be a much better expansion in terms of character upkeep.

I can't wait to actually play my alts and not have to farm for weeks to get an ability working with a piece of gear

At the same time I hope there is something for my alts to do than repeat the same content.