Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Hitei]

I mean the BC arguments where multiple dungeons had the same theme/tileset doesnt really work anymore. In BFA and SL most dungeons were copy pastes of outdoor area's. Freehold, Atal, Most of Shrine, Upper Mechagon, Siege of Boralus, Mists, Halls, Plaguefall, , Necrotic Wake and most of Tazavesh Gambit.
Yes TBC dungeons shared some tilesets, but each of them were unique areas that werent available outside of that.

This is backwards thinking. The dungeons are not copy pastes of outdoor areas, Siege and Freehold aside, they are dungeons who are designed as dungeons and then implemented into the outdoor world as an area for the sake of immersion since they're intended to be an actual space. If you're going to go that route, even ignoring the multi-wing part, the Auchendoun, SSC and TK dungeons are just copy pastes of their respective outdoor components/ associated raids.

You'd have a pretty hard time convincing me that more work went into throwing existing ethereal assets into mana tombs than went into Siege of Boralus. Even entirely utilizing an existing space, the parts that are modified for the dungeon specifically are higher effort and more unique than the entirety of those wing dungeon sets.

[The Stormbringer]

You mean the history where Legion came after WoD?

And yet Shadowlands came after BfA.

If you have no reason to want it bad you wouldn't be predicting it to be bad. There is a disconnect with what you keep saying. There is nothing that indicate Dragonflight will be bad yet you keep giving reasons for why you think it will be bad. On some level you want it to be bad because that is what you keep saying it will be based on little to no Dragonflight details.

Or I'm a cynical person who is expecting a trend of bad behavior to continue to be bad until proven otherwise. That doesn't mean I want it to be bad. This is like telling a weather forecaster that's seen a string of dangerous stormy weather in a specific season that they clearly WANT it to be dangerous, stormy weather when they predict more coming for that season again.

[rhorle]

Or I'm a cynical person who is expecting a trend of bad behavior to continue to be bad until proven otherwise.

So you want the game to be bad, because of your cynicism, but argue that you don't actually want it to be bad. You have no details or indication that Dragonflight will be bad. Past expansions are never an indicator for the next. You aren't a weatherman using science and data to forecast. You are a jaded Blizzard fan claiming there are a bunch of things that say Dragonflight will be bad when you've seen nothing of the expansion and there are no actual indicators since we don't know many details of how anything will work.

You are clearly biased no matter how much you deny that you don't want something to happen.

[The Stormbringer]

...and you have some arguments beside it's bad? List exactly what in your opinion made Shadowlands 'bad' and THEN we can discuss if Dragonflight has potential to be better.

I mean, I can at least work off of your examples and go with that, sure.

Example, here's mine list what I didn't liked in SL, judging from whole picture:

1) Story too disconnected from Azeroth and themes like alternate universes or afterlifes are mistakes in my opinion. That's why I loved BfA launch (with exception of making Horde clearly evil from day 1). Will DF correct this mistake? I think very likely. We still don't know much though.

I definitely agree the story seemed off, though if the leaks hold any weight, it was because they had a much grander idea in place and the budget was unexpectedly cut, forcing them to reshuffle things around and somehow make it work. Not a whole lot the devs can do about that, it's more of a "the higher-ups need to get their shit together and give their team the resources they need to make the game" situation. Doing better for story is a pretty low bar, so they'll probably manage that. Even so, what they managed to put together from these cast off pieces was... abysmal. Shadowlands had the worst story of any expansion in my mind.

2) 7-8 month long patches and only 3 big raids. We simply have no data here, for sure they can screw up this again, especially if DF will come too fast. Bonus season at the end of SL is great idea, but I'm afraid it will give them lazy path and 4th season will always be something like this, in my ideal we would have 5 seasons lasting 5 months each (and 5th one being "bonus" one).

The massive content droughts definitely seem like one of the worst things, as well as the lack of patches. One less raid and non-raid patch is BRUTAL for fans, especially when the expansion is running longer than it has any right to. If they don't get this right, then they will absolutely see numbers tank. That's why I'm concerned they appear to be rushing things with a launch less than six months from Alpha launch (it hasn't yet), as that indicates things could be pretty sloppy. Some people say it's because there's less systems to test though, so we'll see.

3) Systems become deadweight in SL. In Legion they introduced artifact so you have something to grind (because in WoD there was REALLY not much to do), but since Legion cosmetic part of game grew.. and grew.. and grew. We don't need grind for power to have always something to do in game. So in SL whole grind was removed, but systems stayed.

And worst thing about SL/BfA systems (Legion was less affected by this) - too much choices. You want raid. You must pick right talents, right covenant, right soulbind, right conduct, right legendary. It's far too complicated. But this is something that we KNOW will be fixed in DF. We just simply won't have it.

That also solve "alt problem" in my book. I had complains about alts in BfA, simply BfA design was too chaotic and all over the place. In SL you can jump straight to patch action with few clicks. Only tedious part was gathering all system related stuff (right lego, right conduit, etc.)

Beside that I always thought SL is good direction for game. If anything my main complain about DF is that it still focuses more on "fixing" game instead of taking any risks with new forms of gameplay.

I think for me, seeing how hard they kept trying to push systems when they were so clearly a problem in Beta was the most depressing thing. They so stubbornly refused to admit they had made a mistake until who knows how many people left. They DID admit to making mistakes however, and from all I've seen have tried to course-correct, so there is something to be said there. I just hope this isn't going to be another example of the Blizzard Pendulum, where they swing too far in the other direction (again) after doing something wrong.

- - - Updated - - -

So you want the game to be bad, because of your cynicism, but argue that you don't actually want it to be bad. You have no details or indication that Dragonflight will be bad. Past expansions are never an indicator for the next. You aren't a weatherman using science and data to forecast. You are a jaded Blizzard fan claiming there are a bunch of things that say Dragonflight will be bad when you've seen nothing of the expansion and there are no actual indicators since we don't know many details of how anything will work.

You are clearly biased no matter how much you deny that you don't want something to happen.

You keep saying that, and yet it's not true. You can absolutely tell me I'm wrong in assuming Dragonflight will be bad, but saying I "want it to be bad" is absolutely, patently untrue. I am being 100% honest when I say this. If Dragonflight is good, I will be very pleased. If it sucks, I'm going to be just as upset as anyone else. If you think previous performance is not an indicator for future performance, then I'm not going to convince you of anything. Let's just drop this, shall we?

[rhorle]

If you think previous performance is not an indicator for future performance, then I'm not going to convince you of anything. Let's just drop this, shall we?

So Legion was bad because WoD was bad, right? Or BfA was good because Legion was also good, right? This stemmed from you saying there are a ton of indications that Dragonflight will be bad even though we all know little about Dragonflight and its systems. As much as you keep downplaying it you did show a bias towards Dragonflight being bad.

[The Stormbringer]

So Legion was bad because WoD was bad, right? Or BfA was good because Legion was also good, right? This stemmed from you saying there are a ton of indications that Dragonflight will be bad even though we all know little about Dragonflight and its systems. As much as you keep downplaying it you did show a bias towards Dragonflight being bad.

As I said before, one of the reasons I think SL suffered and Dragonflight will suffer (though perhaps I explained it poorly) was the brain drain. They've lost a lot of employees, either because they were scumbags, they were fed up with how things were running, or their own choices. A lot of old, talented people at the company are gone. Combine that with the higher-ups not giving a shit and axing their budget for Shadowlands, and showing little improvement from BfA until over half-way through SL, and you start seeing a picture painted.

And part of the REASON why I think it could be bad is BECAUSE of how little we know about it. If it's launching in under six months (closer to five), we should know a LOT more about it! Instead we know less than we knew about MoP, WoD, or BfA when they were announced. Of course I have a bias in a situation like this, how could you NOT?

[boyzma]

As I said before, one of the reasons I think SL suffered and Dragonflight will suffer (though perhaps I explained it poorly) was the brain drain. They've lost a lot of employees, either because they were scumbags, they were fed up with how things were running, or their own choices. A lot of old, talented people at the company are gone. Combine that with the higher-ups not giving a shit and axing their budget for Shadowlands, and showing little improvement from BfA until over half-way through SL, and you start seeing a picture painted.

And part of the REASON why I think it could be bad is BECAUSE of how little we know about it. If it's launching in under six months (closer to five), we should know a LOT more about it! Instead we know less than we knew about MoP, WoD, or BfA when they were announced. Of course I have a bias in a situation like this, how could you NOT?

So now besides seeing very little of DF but knowing very much...you are also into the heads of the actual people who work at Blizzard? Not to change the subject but a friend said they'd get me the basic expansion...just got a e-mail and the got me the epic version...sweet!

[13last]

As I said before, one of the reasons I think SL suffered and Dragonflight will suffer (though perhaps I explained it poorly) was the brain drain. They've lost a lot of employees, either because they were scumbags, they were fed up with how things were running, or their own choices. A lot of old, talented people at the company are gone. Combine that with the higher-ups not giving a shit and axing their budget for Shadowlands, and showing little improvement from BfA until over half-way through SL, and you start seeing a picture painted.

And part of the REASON why I think it could be bad is BECAUSE of how little we know about it. If it's launching in under six months (closer to five), we should know a LOT more about it! Instead we know less than we knew about MoP, WoD, or BfA when they were announced. Of course I have a bias in a situation like this, how could you NOT?

Man don't even argue with him, I gave up last night arguing with him, no point trying to convince someone why a lot of us are skeptical, of course we want the expansion to be amazing and I hope it is really, I love wow, always have, but I am cautious and worried until we have more info about it.

[rhorle]

And part of the REASON why I think it could be bad is BECAUSE of how little we know about it. If it's launching in under six months (closer to five), we should know a LOT more about it! Instead we know less than we knew about MoP, WoD, or BfA when they were announced. Of course I have a bias in a situation like this, how could you NOT?

Why would anyone have to be biased? This is what I was talking about. You want it to be bad. You think everyone needs to have the same bias as you and think that they game has to be bad because of the reasons you list. Yet you will argue that you don't actually want it to be bad despite already having your mind made up. You even say it is bad because we don't know details about it.

Usually people that don't want something to be bad wait until they can get informed before making a decision about what that something will be. Lol.

[rhorle]

Man don't even argue with him, I gave up last night arguing with him, no point trying to convince someone why a lot of us are skeptical, of course we want the expansion to be amazing and I hope it is really I love wow always have, but I am cautious and worried until we have more info about it.

I recently saw this quote, ""The most surprising thing is that you wouldn’t let anyone steal your property, but you consistently let people steal your time, which is infinitely more valuable." - Seneca". You are letting Blizzard steal your time when you no longer enjoy their product. You are insulting me simply because I pointed out that you are wasting that time. Of course I understand why people are skeptical but that still doesn't change that making negative things just to be negative is silly.

Calling Dragonflight bad, no matter what, is silly. If you can't see that then you are blinder then you think I am being.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Man don't even argue with him, I gave up last night arguing with him, no point trying to convince someone why a lot of us are skeptical, of course we want the expansion to be amazing and I hope it is really, I love wow, always have, but I am cautious and worried until we have more info about it.

There's cautious and then there is being overly paranoid for no reason.

[13last]

I recently saw this quote, ""The most surprising thing is that you wouldn’t let anyone steal your property, but you consistently let people steal your time, which is infinitely more valuable." - Seneca". You are letting Blizzard steal your time when you no longer enjoy their product. You are insulting me simply because I pointed out that you are wasting that time. Of course I understand why people are skeptical but that still doesn't change that making negative things just to be negative is silly.

Calling Dragonflight bad, no matter what, is silly. If you can't see that then you are blinder then you think I am being.

Dude I never insulted you, if anything you started swearing at me last night, but sorry if you took it that way. I personally don't waste my time, I have fun whenever I play wow, usually first month of an expansion and last patch when things are smooth. I never called it bad and I hope its not bad, I'm just hoping Blizzard delivers, that is all.

There's cautious and then there is being overly paranoid for no reason.

I don't think its paranoia for someone to want their favorite game to do well, it has not been doing well lately and If you can't understand why people are worried then fair but I see a reason why people are worried.(at least they are watching us argue about it and and I hope they choose whatever is best for their expac whether its delaying it or releasing it this year)

[Ilir]

No because you clearly have not grasped the difference between content and a feature. I don't know how a new class is content for players of the other twelve classes, but whatever.

Uhm, they already said what to expect. New dungeons, new raids and a new continent. Heck, that's one of the most prominent "features" on the Dragonflight announcement patch. Not that it's the most trivial and basic stuff for an expansion to contain. Everything else is listed under the expansion features section. You don't need to wait for Alpha or Beta to point that out when it's laid out and written everywhere.

- - - Updated - - -



I have no idea what your post is about as half of what you said was already said by me and the other half has nothing to do with what I was trying to say.

Dragonflight offers the same range of content as WoD. That was my statement. Raids, dungeons and open world zones. That's the content of WoD and that's the content of Dragonflight. Nothing more was said.

I agree that the recent new types of content were usually disliked, but does that mean to completely cut it and not even try to come up with a compensation for that loss? Because Blizzard is doing exactly that. They're "pruning", but this time expansion features. I'm just saying it will backfire a lot because people will get bored by this expansion faster than ever before.

And what did LK bring more than wod ? Glyphs ? Those were glorified spell upgrade.
DK but you said it's not content.

The problem with WoD is that you only had raids and that's it and you spent your whole life in the garrison.

In DF you'll have raids, m+, world quests + dailies, world exploration + content and prolly other stuff.

i dunno what else you want lol.

[rhorle]

Dude I never insulted you, if anything you started swearing at me last night, but sorry if you took it that way.

Swearing? It is amusing how you make arguments up but imply I'm the unreasonable one. Or that you aren't trying to be insulting when you demean and vilify. If you don't like the product now, and don't like the product they will produce, then you are wasting your time. Because you are playing something you don't enjoy. Yesterday you stated I'm the reason why Blizzard is the way it is. That implies you don't like the way they currently are and the way they currently develop.

There is also no reason to lie about you never calling Dragonflight bad. That is exactly what you implied. What does not taking the time to refine experience mean if not that it will be bad?

It sets a precedent, and I personally was hoping they would take the time they need to refine the experience as I don't think 2 bad expacs in a row are a good idea.

[The Stormbringer]

Why would anyone have to be biased? This is what I was talking about. You want it to be bad. You think everyone needs to have the same bias as you and think that they game has to be bad because of the reasons you list. Yet you will argue that you don't actually want it to be bad despite already having your mind made up. You even say it is bad because we don't know details about it.

Usually people that don't want something to be bad wait until they can get informed before making a decision about what that something will be. Lol.

HOW ARE YOU BEING SO THICK-HEADED?! I DO NOT WANT OTHER PEOPLE TO BE JUST LIKE ME! I am perfectly happy if people are optimistic! I think it's ignorant of them because of Blizzard's track record, but I'm not going to shit on them and tell them they're morons for getting hyped at what could be a fun experience. And again, you keep ignoring that we've seen very little of this expansion, WHICH IS WORRYING. As this gentle-Pokemon said:

Never forget that Scaleface said it would be out in November 2022 and they were right about everything else. That means we have 5 months to go with no info past the announcement, no alpha, no insights. They're trying to hide how sparse this "expansion" is gonna end up being.

Why is there so little information we've been given compared to other announcements?

Whatever, this other person said it best...

Man don't even argue with him, I gave up last night arguing with him, no point trying to convince someone why a lot of us are skeptical, of course we want the expansion to be amazing and I hope it is really, I love wow, always have, but I am cautious and worried until we have more info about it.

I'm skeptical, cautious, and worried, but want the game to be great.

[13last]

Swearing? It is amusing how you make arguments up but imply I'm the unreasonable one. If you don't like the product now, and don't like the product they will produce, then you are wasting your time. Because you are playing something you don't enjoy. Yesterday you stated I'm the reason why Blizzard is the way it is. That implies you don't like the way they currently are and the way they currently develop.

There is also no reason to lie about you never calling Dragonflight bad. That is exactly what you implied. What does not taking the time to refine experience mean if not that it will be bad?

Yes I called SL bad, not DF, I said it would be a bad idea to do 2 bad ones, like can you even read, lol I'm gonna stop replying to you, yes you giving blizzard money for a half finished product is a bad precedent.

[rhorle]

I think it's ignorant of them because of Blizzard's track record, but I'm not going to shit on them and tell them they're morons for getting hyped at what could be a fun experience.

So people are ignorant and morons for not thinking like you but at the same time you want them to be morons? Lmao. It is strange the mental gymnastics you keep jumping through just to ignore the bias you readily acknowledged you have. All you keep looking for is a failed product.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes I called SL bad, not DF, I said it would be a bad idea to do 2 bad ones, like can you even read, lol I'm gonna stop replying to you, yes you giving blizzard money for a half finished product is a bad precedent.

Right. You implied Dragonflight will be the second bad one. Shadowlands wasn't a half finished product. Aren't you also giving Blizzard money for a half finished product? Since you implied you still play because you still enjoy WoW. So aren't you again letting Blizzard steal your time for a half finished product and one you've already thought was bad?

Also if they are not taking the time to refine Dragonflight then you are calling it bad, right?

[The Stormbringer]

So people are ignorant and morons for not thinking like you but at the same time you want them to be morons? Lmao. It is strange the mental gymnastics you keep jumping through just to ignore the bias you readily acknowledged you have. All you keep looking for is a failed product.

You're just straight ignoring what I'm saying at this point. Ignorance =/= stupidity. I said they're not morons. I'm going to stop responding to you now, have a nice day.

[rhorle]

You're just straight ignoring what I'm saying at this point. Ignorance =/= stupidity. I said they're not morons. I'm going to stop responding to you now, have a nice day.

So people that choose to be ignorant aren't also stupid? Even then you are still implying they are the bad ones. You are acting as if you alone are the enlightened one and know the truth about WoW. You don't know anything about the future expansion yet decide to already hate it. Legion was not bad because WoD so even your prediction isn't based on any fact.

Do you even remember what comments you made that started this before you tried to excuse your unjustified hate?

Yeah, this is worse. It just means the game is going to be an abysmal dumpster fire lacking in content. Those of us guessing 2023 were assuming they would, you know, try to avoid Shadowlands' "two major patch" situation and actually put proper time and effort into it. I guess you're right, it was delusional of us to think they had learned their lesson.

[Luck4]

I wonder if Blizzard decided to go with a very short Beta only to add controversial stuff at the last moment such as Borrowed Power, massive chores such as Stygia, or heavy RNG systems such as Azerite Gear or Legiondaries.

I mean, you can't be blamed for not hearing feedback if you aren't getting any.