Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Nyel]

Ugh, I hit a nerve. No one is saying WoW is bigger than FIFA or LoL buddy. No matter how you downplay it, SL beats, you know, OTHER WOW EXPANSIONS. Game that "no one cares about" like you were saying around SL Alpha.

Or maybe you think no one cared about other expansions too or 3.7M is small number?

You did not hit a nerve, I just have a hard time everytime I read this argument, because it's so devoid of substantial information, especially in a cosmos were competition does not exist.

Sorry @All for opening this can of worms though, back to "alpha when" talk.

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Currently Blizzard is whipping boy for gaming community. Bethesda could release Elder Scrolls mobile "free" game and have audacity to put (let's be real) fake trailer of TES VI in 2018 right after Blades reveal, Rockstar could release remaster so bad that makes Reforged a masterpiece, EA (oh yeah, I remember that ~15 years ago EA had that "hated by everyone" place) can have predatory loot boxes in b2p game, still Blizzard is always the worst (and somehow always dissapoints again).

I mean when all the others are shitty, you don't have to be shitty too. Unfortunately Blizzard doesn't measure with the best, it competes with the worst in that regard. And all the other companies get a lot of criticism for that as well, with Blizzard it's just piling up in the last year(s), that's why they are in the focus more than others.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

What do you guys think Evoker's big DPS cooldown and big healing cooldowns will be?

[Lahis]

It is kinda fascinating to do so though, especially when you factor in how Pokemon is the highest grossing media franchise in the world while Warcraft is 40th (just below Space Invaders and just above League of Legends though LoL's estimated total revenue now is a decimal point higher, interestingly).

So yeah, on the one hand comparing it to the the sale of a game in the world's highest grossing media franchise is a bit much, but on the other hand its a good comparison in that it sold pretty damn well for something 39 ranks below Pokemon.

(Also I just find it fascinating to link the list and see where things are ranked)

Games are only a minor part of the income for Pokemon so comparing warcraft to it in total revenue is bit stupid.

[Kiivar86]

Games are only a minor part of the income for Pokemon so comparing warcraft to it in total revenue is bit stupid.

I mean they're the core part of the franchise so I don't know if I'd call it "minor", personally.

[Dracullus]

You did not hit a nerve, I just have a hard time everytime I read this argument, because it's so devoid of substantial information, especially in a cosmos were competition does not exist.

It has substantial information - WoW expansion on release has very stable popularity. Maybe it's obvious for us, not so much for typical doomsayer who say that WoW is bleeding out since Wrath.

Probably even slightly bigger 3.7M in Shadowlands compared to usual 3.3/3.4 is one-time thing and happened because lockdown, Christmas date and 1-2 month longer pre-order (likely all of the above).

I mean when all the others are shitty, you don't have to be shitty too. Unfortunately Blizzard doesn't measure with the best, it competes with the worst in that regard. And all the other companies get a lot of criticism for that as well, with Blizzard it's just piling up in the last year(s), that's why they are in the focus more than others.

Problem is, among big players there are no "best". Everyone lies together in the gutter. For years Blizzard avoided mobile market unlike competition. Got any praises for that? Nope. So no wonder they finally wanted piece of that pie.. that is really big pie.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Games are only a minor part of the income for Pokemon so comparing warcraft to it in total revenue is bit stupid.

While the revenue it self might not mostly come from the games it does show that the reach is far far greater and you’d expect something with reach tens of times larger to be much further ahead.

[Sondrelk]

I don't agree with a world revamp being inevitable. The only reason we need one is because having the world still be set in the Cataclysm is stupid and I feel a world reset is kinda needed at this point.

Sure, we are running out of known stuff, but I feel like just using known stuff is what is holding Blizzard back. They could literally just make up anything. I mean, that's what the Dragon Isles are. Up until BfA, were they even a thing in the canon? I know they were meant for Vanilla, but they never actually happened, and even then, what we got now is vastly different from what they were meant to be I imagine.

Recycling old stuff just because it's something people recognize is stupid.

Well that's the thing, Blizzard could make new areas to explor, but these areas do need to be foreshadowed in some way otherwise players have no reason to be excited for them, which is in many ways what happened with Shadowlands.

Secondly there are many stories that need, or at least should be set on Azeroth in areas we know already.
The Dark Iron insurrection plotline to reassure t Ragnaros could happen in Ragnaria, the hidden continent east of Pandaria that I s the homeland of fire elementals, or it could happen around BlackRock mountain, which is a place players do know and have reasons to want to visit again.

It's also important to remember that not reusing old zones is just wasteful, especially when they could serve just as good a zone as new ones. We could for instance go to an old god infested desert on a random continent, or we could go to Silithus. We could go to a dense jungle filled with Troll ruins and pirates on the coast, and this jungle could be Stranglethorn.
In both these cases the zones would be functionally the same, but in the latter cases yu would have players who consider whatever old zone their favourite and who would love to visit it again.

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It has substantial information - WoW expansion on release has very stable popularity. Maybe it's obvious for us, not so much for typical doomsayer who say that WoW is bleeding out since Wrath.

Probably even slightly bigger 3.7M in Shadowlands compared to usual 3.3/3.4 is one-time thing and happened because lockdown, Christmas date and 1-2 month longer pre-order (likely all of the above).



Problem is, among big players there are no "best". Everyone lies together in the gutter. For years Blizzard avoided mobile market unlike competition. Got any praises for that? Nope. So no wonder they finally wanted piece of that pie.. that is really big pie.

It isn't really Blizzard making it, it's that Chinese company known for making gatcha games. Blizzard definitely shouldn't have accepted it, and they took a hit to reputation by letting them have such a potent brand like Diablo, but they do need to make money not just reputation.

[Makorus]

Well that's the thing, Blizzard could make new areas to explor, but these areas do need to be foreshadowed in some way otherwise players have no reason to be excited for them, which is in many ways what happened with Shadowlands.

Secondly there are many stories that need, or at least should be set on Azeroth in areas we know already.
The Dark Iron insurrection plotline to reassure t Ragnaros could happen in Ragnaria, the hidden continent east of Pandaria that I s the homeland of fire elementals, or it could happen around BlackRock mountain, which is a place players do know and have reasons to want to visit again.

It's also important to remember that not reusing old zones is just wasteful, especially when they could serve just as good a zone as new ones. We could for instance go to an old god infested desert on a random continent, or we could go to Silithus. We could go to a dense jungle filled with Troll ruins and pirates on the coast, and this jungle could be Stranglethorn.
In both these cases the zones would be functionally the same, but in the latter cases yu would have players who consider whatever old zone their favourite and who would love to visit it again.

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It isn't really Blizzard making it, it's that Chinese company known for making gatcha games. Blizzard definitely shouldn't have accepted it, and they took a hit to reputation by letting them have such a potent brand like Diablo, but they do need to make money not just reputation.

I want them to use a new zone that is not based on anything. Fuck it. Introduce some new content, never ACTUALLY heard of before, have a representative of that continent come to us for help because something's seriously going wrong. Introduce new lore, new races and connect it with the lore that already exists later on during the expansion.

Areas do not need to be foreshadowed in any way. (I mean, I am not saying that there shouldn't be a valid reason we go there, but it doesn't have to be referenced expansions ahead or be some random throw-away thing from WC2/WC3). And sure, the community is gonna complain that it "doesn't feel like Warcraft" because anything that doesn't jerk off storylines/races from Vanilla/WC3 doesn't feel like Warcraft. But that's okay. Because we are slowly starting to come to a point where we are recycling the same plot points over and over again just with different characters, because Blizzard is so deadly afraid of being original.

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What do you guys think Evoker's big DPS cooldown and big healing cooldowns will be?

I would love a big AOE Alter Time-esque healing cooldown, but I would imagine that would be incredibly overpowered.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

The playerbase in general is very weary of new stuff but god forbid you criticize the playerbase around here or else you get slammed for it. I think going for a more grounded NEW stuff would work better then "LOOK AT THIS ALL NEW COSMIC STUFF OF THE WARCRAFT UNIVERSE". I'm not saying I hate the cosmic stuff, no I enjoy it, but people are averse to it but I think new stuff that resembles MoP, DF(Ok Dragons are old stuff but the sorta Fantasy vibe that Warcraft usually goes for with only very mild cosmic stuff) would be ok.

[Cheezits]

I think Venthyr and Revendreth was handled well and received well exactly because it's as that poster said: new stuff, then it's linked to old Warcraft stuff, the Nathrezim. They did the same thing for Mists where the new is linked to the old over time.

However, the other three zones in SL aren't as integrally tied to Warcraft, and in the case of Maldraxxus and Ardenweald people thought the devs were saying that old Warcraft stuff (Scourge, Dream) was LAME compared to these new versions. I think this was projecting and persecution complex but that aside, they did not do a good job of tying Bastion, Maldraxxus and Ardenweald to Azeroth's story IMO.

Yes, Maldraxxus and the Five Houses were the blueprint for the Cult of the Damned that Kel created. But it kind of ends there. The biggest connection to Azeroth is that the reformed Houses help solve Lordaeron's plague and that's at the very end.

[Makabreska]

I think Venthyr and Revendreth was handled well and received well exactly because it's as that poster said: new stuff, then it's linked to old Warcraft stuff, the Nathrezim. They did the same thing for Mists where the new is linked to the old over time.

I think people liked Revendreth simply because a Transylvania like places and vampires are appealing in general. Pretty sure they weren't very happy when it turned out that Nathrezim and Jailer were playing 5D chess all this time.

[Lahis]

I mean they're the core part of the franchise so I don't know if I'd call it "minor", personally.

But they're not the main part of the profits, not by a long shot.

[Nymrohd]

This is such an utterly pointless conversation. I tried to bring it back to Dragonflight with possible future zones but it is clear people want to either call doom or gang up on people who call doom instead of actually speculate

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I think people liked Revendreth simply because a Transylvania like places and vampires are appealing in general. Pretty sure they weren't very happy when it turned out that Nathrezim and Jailer were playing 5D chess all this time.

They aren't mutually exclusive and for the record its Death Chess, get it right >.>

[Cheezits]

This is such an utterly pointless conversation. I tried to bring it back to Dragonflight with possible future zones but it is clear people want to either call doom or gang up on people who call doom instead of actually speculate

As Marlamin said, sometimes no conversation is better than poor conversation. If people are acting up just disengage.

In relation to the "old vs new", Dragonflight having ONE new race (the giants) is definitely related to SL backlash. We will see if we take any trips to Lifelands in the patches (I still think this is going to be "Lifelands" in spirit, with another Elune appearance) but its telling that CENTAURS of all things are a major faction. Compare DF to Pandaria which had many new races: they are taking a step back from the new.

Also because Centaurs and Gnolls were two of the last old world models that needed updating for a revamp.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

I mean at this point all criticism will be countered with the 24 hour sale figure anyways. It kind of gives Blizzard the mandate to have poor post-launch content and move to the next product cycle since they know that preorders will ship 4 million copies.

Cut & Run is accepted as the best solution for rushed products, it is not a surprise if it occurs again.

[Nymrohd]

I think Venthyr and Revendreth was handled well and received well exactly because it's as that poster said: new stuff, then it's linked to old Warcraft stuff, the Nathrezim. They did the same thing for Mists where the new is linked to the old over time.

However, the other three zones in SL aren't as integrally tied to Warcraft, and in the case of Maldraxxus and Ardenweald people thought the devs were saying that old Warcraft stuff (Scourge, Dream) was LAME compared to these new versions. I think this was projecting and persecution complex but that aside, they did not do a good job of tying Bastion, Maldraxxus and Ardenweald to Azeroth's story IMO.

Yes, Maldraxxus and the Five Houses were the blueprint for the Cult of the Damned that Kel created. But it kind of ends there. The biggest connection to Azeroth is that the reformed Houses help solve Lordaeron's plague and that's at the very end.

I mean, Revendreth could easily have been the remnants of Nathreza instead. Ardenweald could have been an Emerald Dream zone. Bastion is just silver version of Halls which we spend more than enough time in Legion; could have been expanded in a Dragons vs Odyn plot. Maldraxxus . . . would so much rather have a Northrend Revamp. None of those thematics helped much. And I still think having the Shadowlands be a transitive plane leading to Death instead of being Death itself would have given us a much more subdued "cosmic order" xpac without necessarily setting up future xpacs for each of the other five forces. Plus it would have made so much more sense thematically since Shadowlands just do not make much sense as DEATH itself. Wtf is the utility of all the flora and fauna of those places??? Why are there largely mortal creatures living there?

[Lady Atia]

I think Venthyr and Revendreth was handled well and received well exactly because it's as that poster said: new stuff, then it's linked to old Warcraft stuff, the Nathrezim. They did the same thing for Mists where the new is linked to the old over time.

However, the other three zones in SL aren't as integrally tied to Warcraft, and in the case of Maldraxxus and Ardenweald people thought the devs were saying that old Warcraft stuff (Scourge, Dream) was LAME compared to these new versions. I think this was projecting and persecution complex but that aside, they did not do a good job of tying Bastion, Maldraxxus and Ardenweald to Azeroth's story IMO.

Yes, Maldraxxus and the Five Houses were the blueprint for the Cult of the Damned that Kel created. But it kind of ends there. The biggest connection to Azeroth is that the reformed Houses help solve Lordaeron's plague and that's at the very end.

To be fair, the new stuff is kinda cooler than the old stuff. Pretending to be furious because the "new devs aren't respecting the old guard" is ridiculous though, especially as many of the old guard are better off forgotten anyways. Also, without that we wouldn't have had changes like cross-faction play or legendary transmog etc. Old doesn't always mean better ...

But yeah, I think a chronicle style book that actually tells us about the connections between the Shadowlands and Azeroth instead of just hinting at that stuff would have helped a lot. Just look how much better the Thunderking became once we got his full backstory.

[Cheezits]

Wtf is the utility of all the flora and fauna of those places??? Why are there largely mortal creatures living there?

Because an expansion that looked only like Maldraxxus and the Maw, which I'm sure was in the cards, would've driven people insane. Which again puts the expansion concept as a whole in question, but it's a beaten horse.

I'm glad they did not seal off the SL so that they can use the concept in small, smart ways moving forward. The concept of an entire realm of magic being indebted to a single planet could have interesting ramifications (and Lordaeron demonstrated this well, imo).

[rhorle]

Heck Molten Core should actually have been ANCIENT and include Firelands architecture; if you look at the maps, that area was the seat of power of Ragnaros since before the Black Empire and likely the point where he was banished.

The Molten Core was created during the War of the Three Hammers more than 300 years ago. It is not as old as you think it is.