1. #59341
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    I'd agree if we were just talking about Visage, but the Dracthyr form seems to be in line with current full-fledged races for customization, like with post-SL variety of options. I also strongly suspect that the only reason they locked them to Evoker was for the lore coherence of them having not dealt with typical adventurers and classes, and that there will probably be an unlock in 10.1.5 to 10.2.5, after mortals have been running around the Dragon Isles with them for a while.
    Maybe. Main reason are probably animations, because from what we know both forms will be usable in combat. Strange they didn't go lazy way: give visage to all races + make dragon as only combat form. That would shut up every discussion of making new races for Evoker or new classes for Dracthyr.

    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Legion seemed very sparse from the Gamescom Reveal.

    The big thing of the Legion reveal were artifact weapons, and after the outrage, of course something similar is not gonna be there.

    About borrowed power: "You think that you don't, but you do".
    And next Legion info came 3 months later. And Legion reveal didn't have massive interview campaign that revealed new stuff never talked about in reveal. And usual week-to-week info was more sparse than now (just check wowhead, it was mostly 6.2.2 info from time to time). And Alpha started even after Blizzcon with just Demon Hunter zone, before end of year we didn't even have half specs available. But no, we don't have arguments.

    Fastest reveal->launch I remember was BfA, even there Alpha took 3 months to launch. 3 months after DF reveal is mid-July, which sounds like reasonable date for Alpha, especially since 9.2.5 launched faster than many people expected. We will see.
    Last edited by Dracullus; 2022-06-17 at 08:43 AM.

  2. #59342
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Legion seemed very sparse from the Gamescom Reveal.

    The big thing of the Legion reveal were artifact weapons, and after the outrage, of course something similar is not gonna be there.

    About borrowed power: "You think that you don't, but you do".
    The difference is, artifacts and class halls alone could feed months of speculation.

  3. #59343
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    The difference is, artifacts and class halls alone could feed months of speculation.
    I mean, sure, but do we expect Blizzard to develop features based on how much pre-release speculation it would generate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    Maybe. Main reason are probably animations, because from what we know both forms will be usable in combat. Strange they didn't go lazy way: give visage to all races + make dragon as only combat form. That would shut up every discussion of making new races for Evoker or new classes for Dracthyr.



    And next Legion info came 3 months later. And Legion reveal didn't have massive interview campaign that revealed new stuff never talked about in reveal. And usual week-to-week info was more sparse than now (just check wowhead, it was mostly 6.2.2 info from time to time). And Alpha started even after Blizzcon with just Demon Hunter zone, before end of year we didn't even have half specs available. But no, we don't have arguments.

    Fastest reveal->launch I remember was BfA, even there Alpha took 3 months to launch. 3 months after DF reveal is mid-July, which sounds like reasonable date for Alpha, especially since 9.2.5 launched faster than many people expected. We will see.
    It's only the Dragonform in combat.

  4. #59344
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    I mean, sure, but do we expect Blizzard to develop features based on how much pre-release speculation it would generate?
    Hey in this thread? Sure!

  5. #59345
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    It's only the Dragonform in combat.
    To be more specific:

    buffed: The change between human and dragon form - is it purely cosmetic, as with the Worgen, or does the humanoid form have any gameplay influence?

    Ion Hazzikostas: It’s something we’re actually working through right now internally. We understand there’s definitely desire to be able to be in your humanoid form in combat in a way that you can’t be as a worgen. But of course, if you’re doing a deep breath or using your wings, you can’t do that in humanoid form. We want to give players as much flexibility there as possible. The dragon form certainly isn’t like a metamorphosis for demon hunters. It is the innate form that the Evoker takes, and all their abilities will be usable in it. But we’re looking to find ways to work humanoid form into combat. But ultimately, we want to let players do what they prefer aesthetically, rather than forcing gameplay based on mechanics.
    From https://www.buffed.de/World-of-Warcr...hen-1393543/3/

  6. #59346
    Honestly, the wording of that, though I might be reading between lines that aren't there, makes me think they might make it a toggle, like you can be in dragon form all the time, or let you fight in your human form for the stuff that's just gestures and motions, then make you switch for the stuff that requires dragon biology like wings or breath weapon and then switch back.

    I feel like that would be kinda nice, just as a flavor thing.

  7. #59347
    The Patient Berkilak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veluren View Post
    Honestly, the wording of that, though I might be reading between lines that aren't there, makes me think they might make it a toggle, like you can be in dragon form all the time, or let you fight in your human form for the stuff that's just gestures and motions, then make you switch for the stuff that requires dragon biology like wings or breath weapon and then switch back.

    I feel like that would be kinda nice, just as a flavor thing.
    The design intent was still that you're in the draconic form while in combat. That was simply a couched response to the (in my mind, unwarranted) backlash that decision created. Being in humanoid form while in combat is not something that was intended when they made the initial announcement.

  8. #59348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I mean given that if you don't enjoy Evoker you have no other way to play Dracthyr, it is very limited as a race.
    It is still a race and a class though. No one is denying that it is limited.
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  9. #59349
    Quote Originally Posted by Berkilak View Post
    The design intent was still that you're in the draconic form while in combat. That was simply a couched response to the (in my mind, unwarranted) backlash that decision created. Being in humanoid form while in combat is not something that was intended when they made the initial announcement.
    I think they may have been actually considering it beforehand. Think about how much work is being put into the visage forms... which, if they were never in combat, would never be seen by anyone but RPers and people fucking around.

    It's not like Worgen where the human form isn't super special, the only thing unique is the voice lines. Dracthyr Visage is extremely customizable so it makes sense they would want their hard work to be out in the world.

  10. #59350
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    I think they may have been actually considering it beforehand. Think about how much work is being put into the visage forms... which, if they were never in combat, would never be seen by anyone but RPers and people fucking around.

    It's not like Worgen where the human form isn't super special, the only thing unique is the voice lines. Dracthyr Visage is extremely customizable so it makes sense they would want their hard work to be out in the world.
    I think, ultimately, the visages originated as a convenient lore excuse to re-use existing rigs so they don't have to deal with awkward interactions, like Drac'thyr mounting and the like. Non-combat stuff. The visage-in-combat stuff wasn't so much as hinted at until certain forum users got uppity about it - prior to that, they were quite clear that this race exists because the class isn't possibly with the traditional biology of the existing roster.

  11. #59351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkilak View Post
    I think, ultimately, the visages originated as a convenient lore excuse to re-use existing rigs so they don't have to deal with awkward interactions, like Drac'thyr mounting and the like. Non-combat stuff. The visage-in-combat stuff wasn't so much as hinted at until certain forum users got uppity about it - prior to that, they were quite clear that this race exists because the class isn't possibly with the traditional biology of the existing roster.
    Which is still the case with the current approach of allowing the visage form during some of the combat.

  12. #59352
    Quote Originally Posted by Berkilak View Post
    I think, ultimately, the visages originated as a convenient lore excuse to re-use existing rigs so they don't have to deal with awkward interactions, like Drac'thyr mounting and the like. Non-combat stuff. The visage-in-combat stuff wasn't so much as hinted at until certain forum users got uppity about it - prior to that, they were quite clear that this race exists because the class isn't possibly with the traditional biology of the existing roster.
    But why make the visage form at all if it's just something that a few players will ever toggle on? I know the CHOICES of the visage forms being "new biology" is just to limit it to two races, but the sheer existence of the visage form is a waste of money and effort from the devs if you never ever see it.

    I see your point about mounts, which is a clever way to get around it, but i think that's kind of it.
    Last edited by Cheezits; 2022-06-17 at 03:03 PM.

  13. #59353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    But why make the visage form at all if it's just something that a few players will ever toggle on? I know the CHOICES of the visage forms being "new biology" is just to limit it to two races, by the sheer existence of the visage form is a waste of money and effort if you never ever see it.
    Because they wanted to? Not everything needs a strict purpose or a reason. It is the same reason why feral and bear druids get Tier sets when a lot of the time they are in their forms that don't show armor. There is also a non-zero chance that the system created to support the Visage form customization gets expanded to other races/things.
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  14. #59354
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    This. Legion established so many things that are seen as base game now and this cannot be stressed enough. Unfortunately none of the things from the later expansions have received this status yet and it’s a shame that they don’t even try to do something similar.
    I might be forgetting some things but didn’t it only have mythic+ and world quest become part of The base game? Both of which kinds jsut boil down to a new dungeon and quest system where for dragon flight we’re getting a new talent, flying and profession system all meant to be part of the base form now on which would actually put it ahead of legion even without us seeing what else they have in store.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  15. #59355
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    I might be forgetting some things but didn’t it only have mythic+ and world quest become part of The base game? Both of which kinds jsut boil down to a new dungeon and quest system where for dragon flight we’re getting a new talent, flying and profession system all meant to be part of the base form now on which would actually put it ahead of legion even without us seeing what else they have in store.
    Legion laid the groundwork for Mythic+ and world quests / events (like invasions), which are still used today. Just think about BfA and Shadowlands not having Mythic+. That alone was a huge success that they are re-using now for every expansion, because it makes sense. Same can be said about world quests.

    Legion also had a profession revamp that was thrown out of the window just an expansion later, that's pretty much what we can expect from the Dragonflight profession revamp as well. Dragonriding is strictly limited to the Dragon Isles, so I wouldn't call that a new flying system at all. They already said the barriers to bring this to the entire world are massive and would require a ton of work - and for what? Just to have restricted flying everywhere?

    I give you the talent system, that's something for Dragonflight and the future beyond.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    The difference is, artifacts and class halls alone could feed months of speculation.
    And were overall just way more exciting, not only for lore-reasons, but mechanically as well. And it wasn't just that, it was having very important characters return (we know that from the Gamescom presentation) and then an iconic new class on top of that. Dragonflight is just missing the "iconic" factor that was the pure essence of Legion's announcement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Veluren View Post
    Honestly, the wording of that, though I might be reading between lines that aren't there, makes me think they might make it a toggle, like you can be in dragon form all the time, or let you fight in your human form for the stuff that's just gestures and motions, then make you switch for the stuff that requires dragon biology like wings or breath weapon and then switch back.

    I feel like that would be kinda nice, just as a flavor thing.
    This is what I'm hoping for as well. I want to play an Evoker, I don't want to play a Dracthyr. So this middle-of-the-road approach would be great. I mean it's pretty much like Demon Hunters go into Metamorphosis while using Eye Beam... that's what I hope for Evoker as well. Don't force me to fight in that ugly ass dragon form.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    I think they may have been actually considering it beforehand. Think about how much work is being put into the visage forms... which, if they were never in combat, would never be seen by anyone but RPers and people fucking around.

    It's not like Worgen where the human form isn't super special, the only thing unique is the voice lines. Dracthyr Visage is extremely customizable so it makes sense they would want their hard work to be out in the world.
    I mean it's still just the face and besides some scales and fancy hair colors, what exactly is costing them "so much work" for the visage form? I just don't see it. It's just different facial cosmetics.
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  16. #59356
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Which is still the case with the current approach of allowing the visage form during some of the combat.
    Regardless, my point is that was not the original intent.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    But why make the visage form at all if it's just something that a few players will ever toggle on? I know the CHOICES of the visage forms being "new biology" is just to limit it to two races, but the sheer existence of the visage form is a waste of money and effort from the devs if you never ever see it.

    I see your point about mounts, which is a clever way to get around it, but i think that's kind of it.
    Why have Two Forms for Worgen when most forget that their human form exists the second they load in? Because, at minimum, it is an element of the fantasy. And by reusing existing rigs, they're not investing much to make this happen (just like Two Forms). And who knows how they utilize it? It could automatically toggle on when you enter a Sanctuary zone. Or when crafting or gathering. Or speaking to NPCs. Or whatever else. The point is, it's not like they're adding an entirely new race with entirely new animations for the visage form.

  17. #59357
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Legion laid the groundwork for Mythic+ and world quests / events (like invasions), which are still used today. Just think about BfA and Shadowlands not having Mythic+. That alone was a huge success that they are re-using now for every expansion, because it makes sense. Same can be said about world quests.

    Legion also had a profession revamp that was thrown out of the window just an expansion later, that's pretty much what we can expect from the Dragonflight profession revamp as well. Dragonriding is strictly limited to the Dragon Isles, so I wouldn't call that a new flying system at all. They already said the barriers to bring this to the entire world are massive and would require a ton of work - and for what? Just to have restricted flying everywhere?

    I give you the talent system, that's something for Dragonflight and the future beyond
    pretty sure they said the prof changes were meant to be built upon like the new talent system not just thrown away like the legion changes (wouldn’t call it a revamp), as far as dragon flight goes ya it’s only going to be part of the dragon isle for now but they have been looking to change flying for a while so it’s incredibly likely to be a new base thing, also trying to say it shouldn’t count because it doesn’t apply to old flying zones would be like saying Mythic+ doesn’t count because it’s only legion dungeons onwards.

    Invasions would count as being something legion add I suppose, so assuming they don’t throw away the dragon flight systems theh would both be at 3 new base systems, assuming they don’t add any thing yet to be announced
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  18. #59358
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    But why make the visage form at all if it's just something that a few players will ever toggle on? I know the CHOICES of the visage forms being "new biology" is just to limit it to two races, but the sheer existence of the visage form is a waste of money and effort from the devs if you never ever see it.

    I see your point about mounts, which is a clever way to get around it, but i think that's kind of it.
    It's to sell the fantasy that you are essential of the Dragons Kin, they use visages to mingle with the mortal races why shouldnt their kin?

  19. #59359
    So.... 2 talent trees per month?

  20. #59360
    over 2 months since announcement and so little news.

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